English Language Learners

Zhanlong Zheng

10:00

I am asking this because I don't see other books talk about this usage of would.

Damkerng T.

PEU does.

Zhanlong Zheng

it's englishclub's website only. I don't find a similar usage even in practical english usage!

Damkerng T.

Btw, I thing that web page simply shows example usages; they don't explain the usage of would rigorously. (I want a better term than rigorously, something more down-to-earth, but couldn't think of one.)

Zhanlong Zheng

i have studied the entry for would in PEU. no such usage

Damkerng T.

To me, their "presumption or expectation" is nothing but stating an idea with some uncertainty.

(They use "or", not "and"; strange.)

(Maybe it's not very strange. The author probably thought of two things separately and then tried to shove it under the same section.)

Zhanlong Zheng

10:05

if I use "could" or "might", is it the same as with would?

in these two examples, I mean

Damkerng T.

I think PEU explains the word would shortly, and points to will to explain the certainty case under will instead.

633.2

> That would be Jo calling. I'll answer it.

> That is probably Jo calling. I'll answer it.

> That might be Jo calling. I'll answer it.

> That could be Jo calling. I'll answer it.

I'd say they're all possible. How likely each of them is would be debatable.

> That must be Jo calling. I'll answer it.

> That will be Jo calling. I'll answer it.

I think "That'll be Jo calling." is also possible.

Zhanlong Zheng

That would be Jo calling. I'll answer it.= That could be Jo calling. I'll answer it.= That should be Jo calling. I'll answer it. Is this right?

Damkerng T.

To me, they're all different.

But the differences are insignificant.

Zhanlong Zheng

forget about other possibilties? I just want to know which is most certain, which is least. That's enough.

Damkerng T.

And, I still wonder how closely I can think like a native speaker.

Zhanlong Zheng

10:13

forget about other possibilties.

Damkerng T.

will, must, would, might, could

The list's not set in stone, btw.

Zhanlong Zheng

I see you are from Thailand. Are you taught in English?

Damkerng T.

No, I'm just a learner.

I believe that the best way to learn a second language is to learn it intuitively, at least until you know what is what in the language.

Rules come later.

I believe that my English could be much better, if I learned it differently.

Too bad I couldn't travel back in time. :-)

Zhanlong Zheng

I agree

Damkerng T.

Oh, no. couldn't is bad there. I should have written can't instead.

Come to think of it, it's not really bad. It works there.

Zhanlong Zheng

10:23

just a matter of style

Damkerng T.

No.

Zhanlong Zheng

yes, it works there.

Damkerng T.

You shouldn't say could when you should say can.

26

Q: When do I use "can" or "could"?

When should I use can? When should I use could? What is right under what context?

Zhanlong Zheng

I mean in that very sentence

Damkerng T.

Mentally, what happened in my head when I said that sentence was more of can than could.

It's a bit of could. :-)

Anonymous

10:27

@DamkerngT. That's how I understood it, too. I read it as "Oh, he meant can't"

Damkerng T.

Yes, I guess you can read through my sentences. :-)

I mean, I didn't set up any condition (in my head) that would allow me to use could there.

Anonymous

Yeah, and a past time reading didn't seem appropriate either.

Damkerng T.

sad -- I just expected you to read through them in the past, in the present, and in the future. And, oh, I expect you to read through my typos, too!

My precious typos. :-)

Anonymous

Hehe. I used the term "reading" here to refer to a kind of semantic interpretation

Anonymous

"I go to the store." ← This sentence has a habitual reading available ("I go to the store [on a regular basis]")

Damkerng T.

10:33

nods

Anonymous

So I was referring to your sentence having a possible past time reading, but that the reading was not appropriate

Anonymous

Don't worry. I'll see through your future sentences like they're tracing paper.

Anonymous

After all, I have X-Ray Grammar Vision.

Damkerng T.

Wow! Super X-Ray Grammar Vision!

Anonymous

Yeah, it's pretty handy, except when people write stuff in pencil. Can't see through pencil lead, donchakno.

Damkerng T.

10:34

Where can I find pots made of lead?

(I remember that Superman can't see through lead.)

I still remember that scene from Superman (the first one).

The "pink panty" scene. :-)

Anonymous

Hehe, I don't know if I've seen that movie

Anonymous

I saw one of the Superman movies when I was very young, maybe three years old.

Damkerng T.

Superman was giving an interview to Lois Lane.

Anonymous

It scared me a lot.

Damkerng T.

It was their first meeting, I think.

Anonymous

10:36

Lois. Luis is a male name.

Damkerng T.

And Lois Lane asked him, "Is it true that you can see through anything?"

Anonymous

I also saw a recent Superman movie because, as I recently explained, my friends make me see every comic book movie ever.

Damkerng T.

Superman replied, "Yes.", and she asked, "What is the color of my panties?"

Anonymous

That sounds more likely in the plural.

Damkerng T.

Superman said, "I don't know".

@snailboat Which word?

Anonymous

10:38

Panty.

Anonymous

Most of the time it's like pants or trousers.

Damkerng T.

I can't remember the exact word she said.

Anonymous

Or heck, undies.

Damkerng T.

Then, she continued asking other questions.

Then, Superman said, "Pink." :-)

It was because Lois Lane stood behind a pot made of lead earlier.

Then, the romance begun. :-)

That was what I remember. I can't guarantee that it happened exactly that way, by the way. :-)

Maybe it's on YouTube.

Anonymous

That's okay. I don't need to see it :-)

Damkerng T.

10:42

Hahaha!

I haven't watched Man of Steel yet.

Anonymous

It was okay. They made good action scenes.

Anonymous

It was hard to really identify with any of the characters

Damkerng T.

From the trailer, his suit looks very different.

Anonymous

It had some use of nonlinear storytelling which I liked, though I hear some people found it confusing

Anonymous

Oh, I didn't notice

Damkerng T.

10:45

It doesn't look as blue as before.

Anonymous

I'm not terribly familiar with the Superman character

Damkerng T.

It's kinda grey.

Anonymous

I think Superman is kind of boring.

Damkerng T.

The movie, or the character?

Anonymous

The character.

Damkerng T.

10:46

Oh, I see.

Too perfect, maybe?

Anonymous

Have you ever seen the website formerly titled Superman is a Dick?

Damkerng T.

Ouch! Nope.

Anonymous

superdickery.com/…

Anonymous

superdickery.com/…

Anonymous

It's a funny website.

Damkerng T.

10:49

Are the images photoshoped?

Anonymous

Nope!

Damkerng T.

They look real!

Anonymous

They are!

Damkerng T.

Weird. :-)

superdickery.com/…

Anonymous

I like this one: superdickery.com/…

Damkerng T.

10:52

Is that one for real? LOL

Anonymous

Hahaha

Damkerng T.

Oh! Now I know where the idea of Survivors reality show was from.

Looks like Jimmy was gonna win!

-1

Q: What does "o" stand for in 9 o'clock?

Why we use "o" in timing, say 9 o'clock. What does "o" stand for here ?

grammar word-meaning british-english

Anonymous

Of the clock

Damkerng T.

Sometimes it's difficult to guess what is on-topic on ELL. :-)

Anonymous

But synchronically speaking, it doesn't stand for anything: it's just o'clock

Anonymous

10:56

It's like asking what goodbye stands for. That's just etymology.

Damkerng T.

I think o'er is common in classic works.

Anonymous

Sure. That's different, though.

Anonymous

O'er is synchronically related to over

Damkerng T.

Isn't it possible that they went through a similar abbreviation?

(Maybe I should read J.R.'s answer.)

A-ha! 1720.

Anonymous

In o'clock, əv ðə is reduced to ə. In o'er, oʊvɚ is reduced to oʊɚ

Anonymous

11:00

The latter connection is clear synchronically (o'er is perceived as a form of over) but the former is not (o'clock is not perceived as a form of of the clock)

Anonymous

They don't seem too similar to me.

Anonymous

The biggest similarity is in spelling.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... come to think of it. I might haven't heard any native speaker say o'clock before (when I paid attention to them).

Anonymous

We say o'clock. No one says of the clock in that sense.

Damkerng T.

And my teacher (native Thai) pronounced o'clock as [OH-clock].

Anonymous

11:03

Oh, I always pronounce it ə, like "uh clock"

Damkerng T.

"10 o'clock" ~ [ten-OH-clock]

(How can I write OH bigger than that?)

Anonymous

Even in careful pronunciation, I don't pronounce it that way.

Anonymous

Um. I don't think you get to change your font size here. :-)

Damkerng T.

I'm sure it's wrong. :D

Anonymous

►

Damkerng T.

11:04

I've heard that song before.

But never able to really hear the song.

I expected it to be Elvis Presley's, but this one doesn't sound like him.

Anonymous

Before your turning point?

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Anonymous

Oh, I didn't know he did a version

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure; maybe I misremember.

Anonymous

I didn't read the answer

Anonymous

11:08

But an answer for learners should probably make it clear that it's a matter of etymology

Anonymous

Because people assume a synchronic connection, like "he's" = "he is" and so forth

Anonymous

When they see apostrophes in stuff.

Anonymous

But sometimes apostrophes are just spelling.

Damkerng T.

Some of them do.

Anonymous

It's unclear from the question whether the OP made that assumption or not

Damkerng T.

11:09

I assume that it (o'clock) happened that way and that people got stuck with it.

I think it doesn't really matter to the OP. The OP simply wants to know the meaning of o'.

Anonymous

Yabbut.

Anonymous

An answer should address whether or not you can say the full form anyway :-)

Anonymous

I assume J.R.'s did. I'm too lazy to look.

Damkerng T.

J.R. quoted: o'clock (adj.) c.1720, abbreviation of of the clock

Anonymous

Hooray, etymology!

Damkerng T.

11:13

And he said that o' is a shortened way to say of.

Anonymous

Sure. Usually we don't write of without the <f>, even when we elide the /v/ it corresponds to, but we do sometimes.

Anonymous

"Lots o' luck!"

Damkerng T.

Or even "coupla tweaks".

Anonymous

Sure.

Anonymous

There the relationship is again synchronic (speakers perceive coupla as a form of couple of)

Anonymous

11:15

Whereas o'clock cannot be replaced with *of clock or of the clock

Damkerng T.

I always assumed that it is of clock.

Anonymous

It's not.

Anonymous

It's just o'clock.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I forget the time talking about o'clock!

Anonymous

It's not possible to expand it.

Damkerng T.

11:16

Gotta go, but I'll BBL.

Anonymous

See you!

Damkerng T.

See you!

And, thanks!

Damkerng T.

13:43

Oh, in Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows, they translated incidentally as unintentionally. Bugger!

I'm sure they must just pick the word up from dictionaries (or maybe from some translation memory).

Anonymous

Bugger is not a particularly appropriate utterance in AmE

Damkerng T.

Oh! What should it be?

Anonymous

It's funny to me how common it is in BrE.

Anonymous

Um, I don't know :-)

Anonymous

Do we have an equivalent of "Bugger!" over here?

Damkerng T.

13:47

I mean in AmE, when you're so annoyed!

Anonymous

Plus, I don't entirely know when it's appropriate in BrE. I only have a vague idea.

Damkerng T.

Oh, does it sound too rude?

I mean, I try to keep my swearwords to about the level of Heck!. :-)

Anonymous

I don't know what to make of it.

Damkerng T.

It was like it bugged me (so it was a bugger). Maybe I used it in appropriately.

Anonymous

We do have a meaning for bugger over here--I think is a bit of a childish word, not rude

Damkerng T.

13:50

Oh, I see.

Anonymous

"It's a cute little bugger!"

Anonymous

I think it's a different word than the BrE bugger.

Anonymous

Which is about, you know.

Damkerng T.

Oh, maybe I should have been more careful.

Anonymous

Well, it's hard for me to really answer questions about that word.

Anonymous

13:52

After all, it's not part of my native dialect.

Damkerng T.

still thinking of a better swearword for that occasion...

Anonymous

And I don't spend a lot of time watching British TV shows.

Anonymous

Do you, by the way? Some British shows are popular in the US lately. Most of all, Doctor Who

Damkerng T.

I think Sherlock is quite popular here.

Anonymous

My brother loves Doctor Who. But he watched the old series long ago before it was revived

Anonymous

13:53

Oh, yes! Sherlock. People've told me to watch that.

Damkerng T.

I'm not very into it. I prefer listening to BBC Radio 4 (Extra). :-)

Anonymous

Hey, what was that thing you said the other day about 'd've? I'm failing to search for it

Damkerng T.

Oh, and I found myself watching Walking Dead often enough.

shouldn't've

Anonymous

I've been made to watch that. I'm all caught up.

Anonymous

Ah, shouldn't've!

Damkerng T.

13:54

Hehe.

Anonymous

Dang, I can't find shouldn't've in the chat logs either.

Anonymous

Zero results!

Damkerng T.

I'm sure I've said it.

Anonymous

The search function here isn't so great.

Anonymous

Search as a whole on Stack Exchange isn't very good. It's particularly bad for Japanese and Chinese, unfortunately.

Damkerng T.

13:55

Maybe couldn't've or wouldn't've

Anonymous

Zilch and nada respectively.

Damkerng T.

Not sure if this shouldn't've'd is kosher enough.

:D

Anonymous

It's not.

Anonymous

Saying /ntvd/ would be pretty hard :-)

Damkerng T.

Maybe we can insert some schwas in there. :D

Anonymous

13:58

Yeah, I guess there's a vowel before that /v/

Anonymous

Well, since it's not a possible form, it's hard to analyze.

Anonymous

Did you see my answer maybe a few weeks ago where I described negation in question formation?

Anonymous

It linked to the paper claiming that -n't is an affix

Anonymous

In the back of my mind, I remembered that you'd talked about something like shouldn't've, and I wanted to talk about it in that context

Damkerng T.

Not sure which one.

Anonymous

13:59

But now I can't remember, so it's bugging me.

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