English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

09:03

Yay! My crazy sentences question is now a nice question!

Anonymous

Let is kind of like may. We generally don't call let a modal auxiliary, since it doesn't really work like the actual modal auxiliaries, but it's definitely something kind of weird.

Anonymous

Quirk et al. call it a particle that expresses imperative or optative mood.

Anonymous

And it can be either one!

Damkerng T.

To me, this Let ... construction allows me to understand English's subjunctive more effectively.

Anonymous

(They don't make the same mood-modality distinction CGEL does, so they do say "mood".)

Anonymous

09:05

Let has its own grammar.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps because it's quite similar in Thai when a holiness demands something and when a teacher demands something.

Anonymous

Uh-huh?

Damkerng T.

So I can understand English subjunctive through "Let".

(Actually, in Thai, it's ask.)

Anonymous

By the way, you appear to be using subjective and subjunctive in free variation.

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes. My fingers and my mouth don't agree with one another.

Anonymous

09:10

But it's not about a subject or being subjective. It's related to the idea of grammatical subordination, because the Greek subjunctive is used in subordinate clauses

Damkerng T.

My fingers seem not to like to type j-u-n-c-t. :(

Anonymous

So it's like coordination and conjunct / conjunction, subordination and subjunct / subjunction

Anonymous

At least etymologically.

Anonymous

But the name isn't used for its literal meaning.

Anonymous

There are words my fingers don't want to type properly.

Anonymous

09:11

I can't think of any, but I know there are a bunch. :-)

Anonymous

For a while, I kept referring to Quirk et al. as Quark et al.

Damkerng T.

Hehe.

Anonymous

I didn't notice, either.

Anonymous

English has main clause subjunctives. Not many of them, mostly in fixed expressions...

Damkerng T.

Perhaps, in my life, I typed subject and object way too often. :-)

Anonymous

09:13

Which sounds silly if you think about the literal meaning :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I couldn't think of one.

Anonymous

> God bless you!

Anonymous

> Long live the Emperor!

Damkerng T.

A-ha! Those un-invertible sentences.

(or non-invertible or something similar)

Anonymous

Hmm, I'm not sure. Un- doesn't sound like it attaches to invertible

Damkerng T.

09:15

It kinda has a hidden May or Let in front of them.

Anonymous

Non- attaches to pretty much everything, though.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah. Although I'd say "It kinda has"

Anonymous

There's no actual reason to posit a hidden "May" or "Let"

Damkerng T.

TYftC!

Anonymous

But if you'd like, you can say it's "May God bless you!"

Anonymous

09:17

I think you should usually be able to remove kinda and have a grammatical sentence.

Anonymous

*"It's ~~kinda~~ have a hidden May or Let in front of them."

Anonymous

Although that doesn't work if kinda is modified, since then you'd have an orphaned node: "I only kinda think it's true."

Damkerng T.

That sounds rather fine to me.

Anonymous

"I only ~~kinda~~ think it's true." ← Only is interpreted as modifying something else, so it's still grammatical, but...

Damkerng T.

But I would avoid it in writing.

Anonymous

09:19

Ah, I can come up with a better example than that.

Anonymous

"I like it, but only kinda."

Anonymous

*"I like it, but only ~~kinda~~."

Damkerng T.

Haha. Now that threw me off.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Which would you avoid in writing?

Damkerng T.

"I only kinda think it's true."

Anonymous

09:21

To me, it's the same level of informality that you expressed in "It kinda has a hidden may or let"

Damkerng T.

Actually, I would avoid kinda, sorta, kind of, sort of, at all.

Anonymous

You would! But you didn't. :-)

Damkerng T.

I mean in semi-formal writing.

Anonymous

I use informal forms all the time, particularly when chatting with friends.

Damkerng T.

I think of chat like when I'm talking.

Anonymous

09:22

Yeah, and that makes sense.

Anonymous

A lot of people say things like "there's the written language, and the spoken language"

Anonymous

I don't believe that, personally.

Anonymous

There's clearly a big difference between writing and speaking. Writing is markedly more conservative

Anonymous

Writing tends to be more complex because it can be more easily planned.

Anonymous

But!

Anonymous

09:23

I don't view any of these traits as an inherent part of writing versus speaking. I just think of them as tendencies

Anonymous

So I talk about formal and informal language.

Anonymous

Sure, writing tends to have more formality to it.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I see.

Anonymous

But I'm really not talking about writing versus speaking--I'm talking about formal versus informal.

Anonymous

So I say that instead.

Anonymous

09:24

Because I write informally and speak formally all the time.

Damkerng T.

I think I associated writing with formal.

Anonymous

And of course, I'd never use kinda in spoken formal discourse.

Anonymous

That makes sense.

Damkerng T.

Maybe because most of the thing I wrote for others are usually formal or semi-formal.

Anonymous

It has to be acknowledged that writing is more conservative and on average more formal.

Damkerng T.

09:25

(except emails)

Anonymous

So the two are of course related, and it makes sense to think that way.

Anonymous

But I find it makes more sense to abstract the two away from one another.

Anonymous

The same way you can abstract tense and time from one another. You don't have to, but it makes it simpler to describe how language is used.

Anonymous

They're clearly closely related.

Anonymous

Or modality and mood.

Damkerng T.

09:26

I agree that formal vs informal language is better than written vs spoken language.

Anonymous

Or plain form versus infinitive.

Anonymous

I like abstracting stuff away when it makes things simpler. :-)

Anonymous

ja.forvo.com/word/%E3%81%BF%E3%81%9A%E3%81%86%E3%81%BF/#ja

Anonymous

What pitch do you hear in this word?

Damkerng T.

a moment

Oh, how can I transcribe pitches?

I hear three syllables.

Anonymous

09:30

You can describe them with words.

Damkerng T.

[mid-tone] [rise-and-fall] [low].

Anonymous

So if I asked you to divide the middle long syllable into two parts?

Damkerng T.

There is a short pause between the second and the third syllables.

@snailboat The first part is rising, and the second part is falling rapidly and staying at low tone.

Anonymous

In Japanese, when a word is accented, the most important part is where it falls.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

09:33

The pitch rises before a fall.

Anonymous

Which makes sense, right? Your voice can't just keep falling forever. You have to go up before it falls.

Damkerng T.

Of course!

Anonymous

So in Japanese, pitch rises after the first mora.

Damkerng T.

How low can our voice go? :D

Anonymous

Unless that first mora is accented, in which case you start out high and go low.

Anonymous

09:34

Words generally fall in pitch over time... So even if a word is unaccented, it'll start by going up then go back down

Anonymous

But there's a big difference!

Anonymous

An accented word rises more, and then has a fairly steep fall.

Anonymous

The gradual fall in a normal word is just "intonation", not an accent.

Damkerng T.

Yes, I think it's quite steep.

Anonymous

So it sounds very different.

Anonymous

09:35

And intonation can change the pitch yet again.

Anonymous

So for example dare-ga? could sound like high-low-high, because the accent's on the first mora

Damkerng T.

mizuumi, maybe?

Anonymous

But that "high" at the end is really a "low"--it just rises in terms of intonation because it's a question

Anonymous

So you hear a lot of intonation in Japanese besides the basic pitch accent system.

Anonymous

Yes, mizuumi.

Anonymous

09:37

It means "lake"

Damkerng T.

Nice!

Anonymous

google.com/…

Damkerng T.

I was about to type "Wow!" but my Firefox crashed first.

Anonymous

That's the character for mizuumi.

Anonymous

Aw! Sorry about that.

Anonymous

09:39

In Chinese it's hú.

Damkerng T.

It's okay. I should have restarted it several hours ago.

Anonymous

I wonder if you have a cognate of hú in Thai

Damkerng T.

I can't think of anything.

In Thai, a "lake" is a "cursed sea".

Anonymous

Oh, wow! So poetic!

Damkerng T.

Approximated pronunciation: "ta-lay-sabb" (ทะเลสาบ)

Anonymous

09:42

Why cursed?

Damkerng T.

The water can't get out of the lake, I think.

Anonymous

Oh, but a sea is open?

Damkerng T.

Of course! :D

It's unfathomable!

Anonymous

Is that what a sea is? A body of water only partially enclosed?

Damkerng T.

I don't know its root. "Sea" (ทะเล) is just "ta-lay".

It's one word, but two syllables.

Anonymous

09:44

Oh, I meant in English.

Damkerng T.

Sorry! :D

Anonymous

Hah

Anonymous

Ta-loo, ta-lay, calloo, callay!

Anonymous

You know, Japanese has a word a lot like fathom.

Damkerng T.

Hah! Was it from English?

Anonymous

09:45

Hakaru can mean "to measure the depth [of water]", and it can be used figuratively much like English fathom

Anonymous

But it's unrelated.

Anonymous

Hakaru can be used more generally, but there's a specific hakaru, 測る, which fits it fairly well

Anonymous

I like that word in English. Fathom.

Anonymous

Unfathomable seas sound frightening.

Damkerng T.

I think that's the way seas are.

Anonymous

09:51

You'd think we'd be able to fathom all of them these days.

Damkerng T.

Sciences took away the beauty of poetry. :(

Anonymous

But we find such neat things while we're fathoming!

Damkerng T.

But! I'm sure that there are so many things we haven't discovered yet down there in the abyss.

Like a, umm... coelacanth?

Anonymous

There are metal-plated magnetic snails that live around undersea hydrothermal vents

Damkerng T.

Hah! Magnetic?

Anonymous

09:57

The world has many exciting snails in it.

Anonymous

Here is another sort: io9.com/…

Anonymous

I'll find you pictures of the magnetic ones

Damkerng T.

Very spiral-ish!

Also translucent!

Oh! io9 has the motto: We come from the future.

Anonymous

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

09:59

I think this one fits in a sci-fi movie rather easily.

Anonymous

Have you ever seen a Murex?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I was about to ask you earlier. Does this make sense to you? I connected to the internet.

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I haven't.

Anonymous

Yes, it makes perfect sense to me

Damkerng T.

10:01

I see.

Thanks and thanks.

Anonymous

Murex snails grow very spikey shells.

Damkerng T.

Somehow I don't like to picture myself being connected to the Internet.

Anonymous

I connected [my computer] to the internet.

Damkerng T.

That's fine. I connected my computer to the Internet.

Anonymous

#I connected [myself] to the internet. ← This seems less likely.

Damkerng T.

10:03

Dropping my computer makes me feel a bit funny.

Anonymous

> I went online.

Damkerng T.

That makes perfect sense to me.

Anonymous

But you're not literally "online", your computer is.

Damkerng T.

I can imagine myself surfing the sites.

Anonymous

I think it's just a slightly figurative way of talking.

Damkerng T.

10:04

I think so.

Anonymous

Your computer is an extension of you when you go online, send someone a file, go to a website, etc.

Damkerng T.

So I asked you to be sure. :D

Anonymous

I spend time on ELL. But not literally, because ELL exists in some servers way over there.

Anonymous

I never literally go to websites. They stay hosted on machines far away, and my computer downloads files from them and displays them to me

Anonymous

I don't literally send people files, either. I make my computer do the dirty work.

Anonymous

10:06

Hmm, what else do we say?

Anonymous

By the way, my younger friends use terms like "internets" and "interwebs"

Damkerng T.

Somehow I imagine "sending people files" literally.

Anonymous

I think it's one of those things that people say ironically

Damkerng T.

Haha.

Anonymous

"My internets are down"

Anonymous

10:07

"I'm checking my internets"

Damkerng T.

Probably they have many internets.

Anonymous

"I'm checking my internets" = I am checking the websites I regularly check.

Damkerng T.

One on a desktop, another on mobile, another on iThingy.

A-ha!

So, to them, an internet means a website or an app, I guess.

Anonymous

And when their internets are down, they can't access their internets.

Damkerng T.

Ah, gotta go. See you later. (Probably I might catch you when I was back.)

And thank you so much!

Anonymous

10:13

See you!

Anonymous

"I married to a beautiful girl" needs to have "to" removed.

Anonymous

(Or am / was / have been / had been inserted)

Damkerng T.

10:39

@snailboat See how easy our users can be misled. :-)

That one was quite obvious to me. I wasn't sure about "connect to the Internet".

(I can sneak back in here quite a bit. :-)

(But probably not enough to compose good answers.)

Nico

13:26

@MaulikV are you there?

Does anyone know how to invite someone to a chat room?

Damkerng T.

Hello @Nico. I'm not sure. The more effective way is probably posting a comment to one of that person's questions or answers.

Nico

I've been doing so, but I feel the message is not getting across. I though a chat room, would make thing easier.

Damkerng T.

Did you tell him (I guess you're talking about MaulikV) to discuss the matter in this chat room?

Nico

No, I haven't

but I remember once, someone created a room for me to chat with someone else

but i don't seem to find the option

Damkerng T.

That's another option. It usually comes up when a question or an answer has a long thread of comments.

I'm not sure how to create a private chat room either. Let me see...

I've just created a chat room for the two of us. Have the system notified you yet?

Nico

13:36

nope

yes

i've just seen it

Damkerng T.

Let me see...

@Nico No problem. This feature is new for me too!

Nico

@DamkerngT. Thanks. I think this trick may be very useful in the future

GATA

15:26

Would someone please tell me what does "whipping " mean in the text below?

Walking in the country that day, he met another person who was not at the funeral. A woman. She did not try to start any conversation and in fact seemed as fierce in her solitude as himself, whipping the air past her with long fervent strides.

Nico

@GATA it's used figuratively

do you know what a whip is?

GATA

I think it is about her dress(a long dress) which is waving behind her. like the trail of a wedding dress.

Nico

and a stride?

a whip google.co.uk/…

GATA

Yes I know what "stride" is :)

Nico

so imagine you're whipping the air with your strides as you walk

how can i paste an imagine? I thought the link would be enough?

GATA

15:34

Thank you :)

I think I got it , its about her movement speed. am I right?

Nico

I think so. I picture her walking fast, with fast strides, each stride as a whiplash

GATA

One more question :) why it says "past her" . Shouldn't it be something like "in front of her" ?

Nico

...

if the writer had written "in front of her" I would picture something more violent

GATA

So "past her" sounds natural to you?

Nico

using "past her" makes me think of the state of someone that has just been whipped

GATA

15:44

@Nico Thank you very much :)

Nico

the former feels more active, the latter more passive

but that's just my interpretation. I'm sure StoneyB could explain this very well

GATA

Thank you but StoneyB is halley's comet of chat room . he appears every 75 years :)

Nico

:) What I meant is that that use of "past her" must be a literature trick, something that a professional writer like him can recognise.

GATA

16:02

I will try to ask him too but your reasoning already sounds pretty logical. Thank you :)

Anonymous

20:27

@DamkerngT. A follow-up post on LL about devoiced /z/: languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=11494

Anonymous

Also relevant, from ling.cam.ac.uk/sarah/docs/hn_labphon6.pdf :

Anonymous

> It is well known that syllables in many languages have longer vowels when their codas are voiced rather than voiceless (for English, cf. Jones, 1972; House & Fairbanks, 1953; Peterson & Lehiste, 1960; for other languages, including exceptions, see Keating, 1985).

Anonymous

> In English, the durational difference in stressed syllables can be 100 ms or more, and it is well-established as one of the strongest perceptual cues to whether the coda is voiced or voiceless (e.g. Denes, 1955; Chen, 1970; Raphael, 1972).

Anonymous

Sometimes /z/ is phonetically largely devoiced, and yet we clearly perceive it as /z/ and not /s/

Anonymous

So in terms of phonemics, we still call it /z/.

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