English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

05:21

Good news. I think I can see through Hemingway's usage of "as if X were" vs. "as if X had been". He was a man who was truly true to his words. :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hooray!

Anonymous

Actually, maybe I would be able to see too if I had context.

Damkerng T.

I think it's about unreal vs. hypothetical possibility.

Hemingway always use "as though X were" for hypothetical possibility, and "as though X had been" for unreal thinking.

I'm sure you must be able to tell the nuance when you read them.

Anonymous

05:41

Give me an example.

Damkerng T.

> It was dark in our room except for the small light of the night over the town and the bat was not frightened but hunted in the room as though he had been outside.

vs.

> Pablo and Anselmo knew how good they were and while Pablo stood now proud and less sad-looking, watching them lovingly, the old man acted as though they were some great surprise that he had produced, suddenly, himself.

Oh, I can't edit the first line to bold as though he had been.

Anonymous

I cheated and changed your other bolding to include as though, too :-)

Anonymous

Thank you for the examples!

Damkerng T.

Yay! Thank you for the bolding!

GATA

Hi all :) @snailboat Thanks for tip.

Anonymous

05:55

@GATA I no longer remember what you're referring to

GATA

Using advantage as a verb - you said its not common.

I have asked it in ELL but I have changed it to "taking advantage of"

Anonymous

Ah, people do say take advantage of fairly often.

Anonymous

That can be interpreted at least two ways:

Anonymous

> 1. Make sure you take advantage of today's sale! All books 50% off!

Anonymous

> 2. I had to break up with him--he was taking advantage of me.

Anonymous

06:01

The second one has a negative meaning the first one does not

GATA

"How do you take advantage of these characteristics of colors in your paintings?"

I think the positive sense of it in this sentence is obvious. isn't it?

Nico

@DamkerngT. what does "hunted " mean in that context? is it the usual meaning? "not frightened but hunted" sounds awkward to me

Damkerng T.

@Nico It's not "not frightened but hunted". It's "the bat was not frightened but (the bat) hunted".

Anonymous

@GATA Yes

Damkerng T.

@GATA Somehow I think the question is very direct. :-)

GATA

06:08

@snailboat Thanks :)

@DamkerngT. Thanks you :)

Damkerng T.

It could sound not as direct in some appropriate context.

GATA

I was confused about it because I have always seen it negative contexts.

Anonymous

@GATA I think it's generally negative if you are taking advantage of a person or an attribute of a person

Anonymous

Take advantage of him ← negative

Anonymous

Take advantage of his generosity ← negative

Anonymous

06:11

Take advantage of the resources you have available ← not negative

GATA

so its final meaning is completely depended on the context.

Anonymous

Yes.

Damkerng T.

I love those arrows.

Anonymous

Unicode arrows are the best! I'm a fan.

GATA

me too :)

Anonymous

06:15

@DamkerngT. That thing I said about keeping my sentences simple? I often do the opposite when I talk to you in here :-)

Anonymous

But I'm really pretty inconsistent about it.

Anonymous

Simple sentence here. Needlessly complex sentence there.

Anonymous

Sometimes I think I should pay more attention to etiquette.

Anonymous

"Give me an example."

Anonymous

Now there's a direct statement. :-)

Anonymous

06:16

But I'm so used to talking like that here.

Anonymous

"Could you give me an example?"

Anonymous

I felt guilty, so I thank-youed to make up for it afterwards.

Anonymous

Actually, I think most of the members here understand even when I talk funny.

Anonymous

Which is good, because I like talking funny.

Anonymous

But I worry about the lurkers on ELL itself, the ones who might not be advanced enough to post a lot themselves.

Anonymous

06:19

Do you suppose there are many people reading ELL who have trouble understanding some of the explanations, comments, and so forth?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Somehow I didn't feel it as a direct one. :-)

I think in our context, it's beyond perfectly fine. :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, I think it's a pretty normal thing to say in conversation, where you have tone of voice and so forth.

Damkerng T.

Exactly!

Anonymous

Generally you don't have to be particularly polite when casually chatting.

Anonymous

Actually, if you're too polite, it puts distance between you and the listener.

Damkerng T.

06:20

GATA's question made me think of it as a questionnaire.

So I thought it might be a little too direct. That's all. (But it's probably not so.)

Anonymous

"Hello, snailboat! Do you think you could please take a look at the following sentence?" I feel distant, like I've just received a letter.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The question in quotes or outside of quotes?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I like that in you too!

18 mins ago, by GATA

"How do you take advantage of these characteristics of colors in your paintings?"

Anonymous

It sounds to me like someone is giving a painter a semi-formal interview.

Damkerng T.

Even as a questionnaire, I think it still should be fine, if used properly.

@snailboat I see. That would be perfectly fine, to me.

:D

@snailboat I'm sure that many users have trouble understanding explanations, and they usually opted to just upvote and accept the answer.

Anonymous

06:25

Oh, then there are people who use politeness to be rude.

Damkerng T.

I was surprised that Maulik's answer was accepted yesterday, in almost no time.

Anonymous

There's a Japanese word for that! Ingin burei. (Well, pair of words.)

Damkerng T.

Later StoneyB came in and salvaged the question, I think.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Which one? I haven't been able to keep up with all the ELL questions.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, that's another kind of people.

Frankly, I don't like them very much.

3

Q: Possessives - "this year's question paper" or "this year question paper"

I found this in a grammar book: Wrong Sentence - All the candidates felt that this year's question paper was too easy. Right Sentence - All the candidates felt that this year the question paper was too easy. Is "this year's question paper" really wrong, and if so, why? What makes "this...

Anonymous

06:29

Oh, I edited that one, too

Anonymous

And then I voted to reopen

Damkerng T.

I voted it to reopen too.

Anonymous

But it would be better if they explained why the book says it's wrong

Anonymous

Oops

Anonymous

Did I accidentally answer that 'taking advantage' question in chat, when it was asked on the site? :-)

Anonymous

06:33

That "I'm a large" answer I typed on my phone last night as I was falling asleep got like twenty upvotes.

GATA

I said I ve asked it on ELL :)

Anonymous

(In this sentence, like means "approximately".)

Anonymous

@GATA Ah, I'm sorry! I wasn't paying close enough attention.

Anonymous

I should have posted over there, huh? :-)

Anonymous

Well, you can get other people's views!

GATA

06:34

Sorry I wont do it again.

Anonymous

@GATA You don't have anything to apologize for

GATA

Thank you :)

Anonymous

I meant that sincerely: you can get other people's views :-)

Anonymous

(In addition to mine, which I already typed in here)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I searched and found a paper on ingin burei and pragmatics, but unfortunately it's not open access, so I can't read the paper :-(

Damkerng T.

06:37

sad

Anonymous

ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/40019240257

GATA

You and Damkerng have always been a great help to me since I've joined ELL . Sometimes I feel the need to final check everything with you guys :)

Anonymous

ELL is fun!

GATA

Indeed :)

Damkerng T.

I concur!

Anonymous

06:42

This is a funny word:

Anonymous

Cupronickel

Cupronickel or copper-nickel is an alloy of copper that contains nickel and strengthening elements, such as iron and manganese. Cupronickel is highly resistant to corrosion in seawater, because its electrode potential is adjusted to be neutral with regard to seawater. Because of this, it is used for piping, heat exchangers and condensers in seawater systems, as well as marine hardware, and sometimes for the propellers, crankshafts and hulls of premium tugboats, fishing boats and other working boats. A more familiar common use is in silver-coloured modern circulation coins. A typical mix is...

Damkerng T.

Funny that copper-nickel turned into cupronickel. Perhaps the root of copper is cupro something.

Anonymous

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cuprum

Damkerng T.

A-ha! It's cuprum. Thanks!

Anonymous

That's another one you might know from the periodic table:

Anonymous

06:47

Copper

Copper is a chemical element with the symbol Cu (from ) and atomic number 29. It is a ductile metal with very high thermal and electrical conductivity. Pure copper is soft and malleable; a freshly exposed surface has a reddish-orange color. It is used as a conductor of heat and electricity, a building material, and a constituent of various metal alloys. The metal and its alloys have been used for thousands of years. In the Roman era, copper was principally mined on Cyprus, hence the origin of the name of the metal as сyprium (metal of Cyprus), later shortened to сuprum. Its compounds ...

Anonymous

Amusingly, the oneboxing changes "from Latin: cuprum" to "from "

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I see that lobster... food... where is my food? ...

Foodeses. My foodeses.

GATA

I hate sea foods.

Damkerng T.

Even fish?

GATA

yes :)

I am 90% vegetarian.

Damkerng T.

06:53

Poor fishes. Hmm... maybe lucky fishes.

GATA

:D

Damkerng T.

@GATA Good for you! I can't stay being a vegetarian for more than a few days.

Anonymous

I would never eat a lobster.

Anonymous

@GATA Me too! I usually eat vegetarian food.

Damkerng T.

I would never eat a lobster alive.

Anonymous

06:57

But occasionally I eat meat.

GATA

@snailboat me too :)

Damkerng T.

I like fish. :D

Anonymous

Me too! They're so fun to watch, swimming all about!

Damkerng T.

Fish, fish, fish. Fisheses. My Fisheses.

Anonymous

I don't want to eat them, though.

Anonymous

06:58

I'm always surprised by how intelligent they seem.

Anonymous

Since I eat meat on occasion I can't really claim to be a vegetarian, but I do mostly eat vegetarian food.

Damkerng T.

What is the collective noun for fish? (I think I know it but can't recall it.)

Anonymous

A school of fish?

Damkerng T.

Ah, yes! :D

Thanks.

GATA

@snailboat Thats why I call myself 90% vegetarian.

Damkerng T.

07:02

I like to see schools of fishes on TV.

Fish screensavers are also nice!

GATA

screensavers are supposed to save the energy :) I always set it to go off. (I hope this is the right way to say it :)

Anonymous

...are supposed to save ~~the~~ energy

GATA

Would you please explain a bit why it must be omitted?

Damkerng T.

I think we already have that question on ELL. Going to check it out...

GATA

Thanks I am searching on google.

Anonymous

07:10

You're talking about energy in general. You're not talking about some specific energy that was previously referred to or that both speaker and listener know about

Anonymous

So it should be indefinite. Don't insert the.

Damkerng T.

Oh, it was about the "energy savings": ell.stackexchange.com/questions/14573/…

GATA

Thank you both very much.

Damkerng T.

> Baseball boys baseball boys bonk bonk baseball boys.

I like this explanation of Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. :D

Anonymous

By the way, it's debatable whether some of the sentences in your question should actually be referred to as "grammatical".

Damkerng T.

07:13

Perhaps the last one is the riskiest.

Anonymous

I hit my hand on a doorknob. :-(

Damkerng T.

Ouch!

GATA

oops

Anonymous

I know, right? The doorknob shouldn't have done that.

Damkerng T.

I hope you don't get hurt much.

Yes. Bad doorknob!

Anonymous

07:16

I was right there minding my own business when wham! The doorknob hit me.

Damkerng T.

You should hit it back. :D

GATA

:D

Anonymous

That's how this fracas got started.

Damkerng T.

How is the doorknob now?

Anonymous

It's okay. It took this whole equal-and-opposite-reaction thing pretty well.

Damkerng T.

07:18

For a moment, I got an idea that it might be shredded into pieces.

Anonymous

Well, my hand isn't that solid. Or heck, that sharp.

Anonymous

I hardly ever sharpen the back of my hand, in fact.

Damkerng T.

Is it (your hand) still hurt now?

Anonymous

Yeah, li'l bit :-(

Anonymous

Not much.

Anonymous

07:20

I just mentioned because I noticed my hand feeling funny while I was typing.

Damkerng T.

Aww... my idea of distraction didn't work.

Anonymous

Did you try to distract me from my hand hurting by talking about hitting my hand on a doorknob? :-)

Damkerng T.

Yep. Hehe.

Anonymous

Well done!

GATA

:D

It reminded me of one of pink panthers cartoon series.

Anonymous

07:23

You edited your message too fast for me to attempt a witty reply.

GATA

Sorry :)

Anonymous

Hooray for editing!

GATA

:D

Damkerng T.

What just happened? (I was away for a while.)

Anonymous

A lot!

Anonymous

07:25

A lot just happened.

Damkerng T.

Oh, what are they? Tell me. Tell me.

Anonymous

But edits have obscured the details, and the truth may never be uncovered.

GATA

Thank you snailboat :)

Damkerng T.

0

Q: Hello, I need help on Subjunctive. Thanks

I'm confused on the structure of Subjunctive; especially on the base form of the verb. I need to know on the word "that" does it have to have that word in a sentence before you can put it on the base form? Guys your feedback will be much appreciated, I'm hoping to meet someone who I could talk to...

subjunctive

GATA

@DamkerngT. I made a typo that must not be divulged :)

Damkerng T.

07:29

Ahh... secretses. Your secretses.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Pass!

Damkerng T.

Is it just me or he really wants to have someone to talk with more than a help on subjunctive? :-)

GATA

:D that was funny.

Time to read "Casting away". be back later :)

Damkerng T.

Have a nice reading!

GATA

Thanks.

Anonymous

07:38

I, too, hope you have a nice reading.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Do they have enough reputation to join ELL chat?

Damkerng T.

They have 1 rep point.

Anonymous

Oh, so I suppose not.

Anonymous

I think ELL is best when people ask questions about specific examples of things they need help with

Damkerng T.

I'm still not sure about the minimum requirements for joining our chat.

Anonymous

07:43

You need 20 reputation.

Anonymous

Your chat user's reputation is based on the combined reputation you've earned on all the sites you're on, I believe.

Damkerng T.

I was thinking about closing it because it's "too broad or unclear what you're asking", but decided to post this comment to him: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/20354/…

Anonymous

(I'm not sure if it counts the initial 1 point or the 100-point association bonuses)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Comment is intransitive

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see. That explains why sometimes a user with 1 point could chat in here.

TYftC.

:D I'm trying a brand new acronym for "Thank you for the correction!"

Just in case that I might need to type it very often.

Anonymous

07:46

Ah, I got as far as "thank you for the", but I thought "comment" first.

Anonymous

You probably don't need to specify a reason.

Damkerng T.

Reading his reply, I decided not to scare him away, so I think I will leave his question like that for a while.

Anonymous

I think most everyone is familiar with "ty" (don't hold me to that, though!), but here on Stack Exchange chat most people seem to avoid typing things like that, it seems

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You should never decide to scare someone away from ELL, so I'm glad you made the choice you did. ;-)

Damkerng T.

Yay! I made the right decision.

Anonymous

07:49

I suppose if you did want to scare them, you could tell them to beware the thane of Fife.

Damkerng T.

I'm not used to "the thane of Fife".

Anonymous

Then you probably aren't being ware. Or bewaring. Or ware being.

Anonymous

Being aware?

Damkerng T.

Not being aware, I guess.

Nice wordplay. :D

Anonymous

Yep, it looks like beware is related to ware, from which we get aware and wary

Damkerng T.

08:01

> The teacher insisted that Rocky study hard to get good numbers.

I think the tense is incorrect; it should be "insists".

Anonymous

It's not tensed, it's subjunctive.

Anonymous

Oh.

Anonymous

You're talking about the main clause verb. I am not reading very carefully!

Anonymous

So why should this sentence be in the present tense?

Damkerng T.

Because Maulik wanted to give some examples on the subjunctive with bare infinitives.

Anonymous

08:03

But why should it be in the present tense?

Damkerng T.

Doesn't it have to be in the present tense?

(Unless he used lest or in order that.)

Anonymous

I think the tense changes when the insisting is going on.

Anonymous

In the present tense, the teacher is insisting right now that Rocky study hard.

Anonymous

In the past tense, the teacher was insisting at some point that Rocky study hard.

Damkerng T.

Hmm...

Perhaps similar to something like: I told you you are right.

Anonymous

08:06

That's different, since the subordinate clause there is tensed

Damkerng T.

Isn't this better?

> The teacher insisted that Rocky would study hard to get good numbers.

Anonymous

That means something different.

Damkerng T.

Whatever good numbers mean.

Or,

> The teacher insisted in order that Rocky study hard to get good numbers.

Anonymous

That broke my parser.

Anonymous

Let me type up a couple examples.

Anonymous

08:09

> The teacher insists [ that Rocky study hard ] .

Anonymous

> The teacher insists [ that Rocky studies hard ] .

Anonymous

In the first one, the teacher is making Rocky do something by insisting.

Anonymous

In the second one, the teacher is claiming that Rocky studies hard, and they're claiming quite insistently.

Anonymous

In the first, study is the plain form of the verb. In the second, study is a tensed verb and it agrees with the subject and shows a present/past distinction, etc.

Anonymous

> The teacher insisted [ that Rocky study hard ] .

Anonymous

08:11

> The teacher insisted [ that Rocky studies hard ] .

Anonymous

I see the same distinction here

Anonymous

The only difference is when the teacher compelled Rocky, or when the teacher described Rocky's behavior

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Is this one okay?

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

Insists/studies, insisted/studies, insists/studied, insisted/studied all seem okay to me (with different meanings)

Damkerng T.

08:13

> The teacher insisted ten years ago that Rocky studies hard.

Anonymous

That seems degraded to me

Damkerng T.

> The teacher insisted yesterday that Rocky studies hard.

Anonymous

That could be okay.

Damkerng T.

nods

Eh? Is this one possible: insists/studied?

Anonymous

I think I wouldn't call any of the verbs in the examples we've discussed infinitives, though

Anonymous

08:15

The teacher insists [ that Rocky studied hard (all night long) ] , although I don't believe her.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see.

Anonymous

The teacher is reporting Rocky's past behavior, but she's doing the reporting now.

Damkerng T.

The problem was I couldn't figure out a good example.

Then, now, I'm a little confused. What's the point for the past subjective?

Unreal?

Anonymous

What thingy are you referring to as "past subjunctive"?

Anonymous

I have a different subjunctive-label ideology than you.

Damkerng T.

08:18

11 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

> The teacher insisted that Rocky would study hard to get good numbers.

Anonymous

It's not clear to me that there's a subjunctive involved in that sentence.

Damkerng T.

Not quite right. It's not a good subjunctive.

I think I see its point now (the present subjunctive).

Anonymous

Hmm?

Damkerng T.

It's about demanding, or insisting, or something necessary to be done.

No tense involved.

Anonymous

There are lots of uses for subjunctive constructions.

Damkerng T.

08:21

I mean only the present subjunctive.

Anonymous

Again, we're using words differently from one another.

Damkerng T.

What's your definition?

Anonymous

Subjunctive constructions use the plain form of a verb, the same form used by infinitival constructions.

Anonymous

So, be.

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Anonymous

08:24

But you can't generally turn a subjunctive construction into a past tense form by replacing e.g. be with were

Anonymous

Be that as it may → Were that as it might? Probably not.

Damkerng T.

I think "the present subjunctive" (I use the definition I found on Wikipedia) is about the form.

Anonymous

It's essential [ that he keep us informed. ] → It's essential [ that he kept us informed. ] Nope, not the same construction differing in tense.

Damkerng T.

I reread it again. The present subjunctive can be used in the past, present, and future.

Anonymous

So there's no reason to posit a relationship between the two.

Anonymous

08:25

I looked at Wikipedia's article on the English subjunctive before. I'm not sure it's useful.

Damkerng T.

I think it's very useful to me. It helps me to understand English subjunctives.

Anonymous

"Were I to say that ..." "Be I to say that..." Nope, no obvious relation there, either

Damkerng T.

At least up to this point.

Anonymous

I'm just not convinced that English has a past subjunctive.

Damkerng T.

I couldn't find them in there.

Anonymous

08:28

And I don't see a reason to suggest that English has a subjunctive form.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps they use "past" not because of it's about the past, it's just the past form.

I see. I think I've heard something similar (about English has no subjunctive) before on EL&U.

But I don't know how to explain these constructions without subjunctives.

Anonymous

Well, I said no subjunctive form.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

It demonstrably doesn't have a form that uniquely expresses well, whatever subjunctiveness is.

Anonymous

It has a form that is identical to the infinitive. We can abstract away and say that both the infinitive and the subjunctive use the same form, and we can call that the plain form if we like.

Damkerng T.

08:30

Is this also a subjunctive? Let there be light.

Anonymous

We could just call them the infinitive and subjunctive forms, too. I don't see any motivation, but it doesn't really hurt anything to do so.

Anonymous

Ah, you're only concerned about the English there and not the original?

Damkerng T.

? confused

I'm not sure what you mean by "original"?

Anonymous

Oh, well, it's a translation, you see

Damkerng T.

Ah, is it because Let there be light wasn't written in English originally?

I see.

Anonymous

08:34

Sometimes when we talk about a phrase, we want to analyze it just in the language we're talking about. Other times, we want to interpret it in the context of the original so we can avoid misunderstanding--in other words, the original is a guide to the intent of the translation, so it gives us a hint as to how we should think about it

Damkerng T.

Okay, let me rephrase. Is Let him do his homework a subjunctive?

Anonymous

That's a rather different sentence, at least under normal circumstances.

Anonymous

That looks like a simple imperative to me.

Damkerng T.

By the power of skullpatrol, let IceGirl understand her essay!

:D

Anonymous

That optative does look a lot like an imperative.

Anonymous

08:43

I'm thinking.

Anonymous

Or rather:

Anonymous

Let me think about that for a moment. :-)

Anonymous

Also: let us think about this for a moment. Let's think about this for a moment.

Damkerng T.

A-ha! I just learned that it's called the optative mood.

Anonymous

Well, English doesn't have subjunctive or optative moods.

Damkerng T.

08:46

So where do all these moods come from? Latin?

Anonymous

Well, each language that has grammatical moods has a different set of them.

Damkerng T.

I think English must be special because there seem to be many grammars of English.

Anonymous

But a grammatical mood is based on word forms. English doesn't have special word forms for subjunctives or optatives, or heck, even imperatives

Anonymous

But there's no reason you can't use those terms to describe constructions, ways of using forms

Anonymous

By putting them together with other words in particular ways.

Damkerng T.

08:49

nods

Anonymous

The plain form of a verb is often used in infinitive constructions, but we can see the same form of the verb in imperative constructions, subjunctive constructions...

Anonymous

When you say "subjunctive mood", you are (in my mind) claiming that English has a special grammatical form, because I think of "mood" as a matter of grammatical form.

Anonymous

But English doesn't make those distinctions in that way, although it's capable of making them in other ways.

Anonymous

So I leave off the word "mood".

Anonymous

I just say "subjunctive".

Damkerng T.

08:51

A-ha! Now I get why you usually say "constructions" instead.

Anonymous

Yeah, imperative constructions combine words in a particular way. One of those words is the plain form of a verb

Anonymous

But it's easier to just say "imperative" most of the time.

Anonymous

Here I started saying "construction" because we were using words with different meanings, and I needed to make it clear what I meant by the words.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

The labels aren't actually super important, but sometimes talking about the labels is the best way to get the underlying ideas across

Anonymous

08:55

English has a bunch of fixed expressions, some of which are fairly archaic or formal-sounding...

Damkerng T.

I think I should be careful when I want to use the word "mood" from now on.

Anonymous

If you like, but I'm going to continue avoiding it personally :-)

Damkerng T.

To me, modality and moods are overlapped.

Anonymous

In CGEL, "modality" is in terms of meaning, while "mood" is in terms of grammatical form.

Damkerng T.

Oh, thank you. That makes it clear.

Anonymous

08:58

So in English, you might say there is no optative mood because verbs don't have a form that signals optative modality.

Anonymous

But we do have modal verbs, including may, which can express optative meaning.

Anonymous

"May you eat ten hamburgers!"

Damkerng T.

:D That's too much for me to eat.

I haven't eat hamburgers for years.

Anonymous

"May you eat ten hamburgers over a considerably long period of time!"

Damkerng T.

:D

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