English Language Learners

skullpatrol

02:18

...and still quite.

Jolenealaska

04:24

@DamkerngT. are you around?

Damkerng T.

05:02

@Jolenealaska Yes. I'm just back in here.

On and off all day long. :D

(Maybe I should have said in and out.)

Jolenealaska

Have you seen the executor Q&A? Your comment led me to believe that it might be new information for you.

2

Q: Executer vs executor

I don't understand the difference between those words. The Collins dictionary defines executor as "one who executes," and then defines executer as: executer (noun) = executor I use executor for entity which execute commands (for example, names like "SendEmailExecutor" or "ChangePasswo...

Damkerng T.

I upvoted your answer. :-)

Jolenealaska

Was it new info for you?

Damkerng T.

Of course! Thank you.

Jolenealaska

I suspect that it is kind of obscure.

Damkerng T.

05:05

I'm not used to executing someone. :D

Jolenealaska

:) Me neither, but I was the executor of my mom's estate.

Damkerng T.

I see. I see.

Jolenealaska

My dad is an estate attorney, so that's a word that I have always known well.

Damkerng T.

MMJZ overlooked the difference, I think.

Jolenealaska

Yes, he did. I think even native speakers could easily miss that one.

Unless, of course, their father is an estate attorney

Damkerng T.

05:09

Hehe. :-)

Jolenealaska

I'm killing zombies and ogres and such, so I had better get back to it. The balance of power of Baldur's Gate is at stake!

Cya Later!

Damkerng T.

Ah, thank you and see you later!

Ice Girl

09:48

@skullpatrol Hi

@DamkerngT. Hi

Damkerng T.

Hello. What's up?

Ice Girl

I have a lot of question

Damkerng T.

I'm probably not very available. :-)

Ice Girl

:(

Damkerng T.

I've seen your question on the main has received many good answers.

Ice Girl

09:54

Yes

I read it

Damkerng T.

:D

Ice Girl

It's very useful for me

Damkerng T.

I think so.

About that "She had, ...", it didn't make sense to me until I read the previous sentence.

Context is very important.

Ice Girl

Women are friends, I once would have said, when they totally love and support and trust one another, and bare to each other the secrets of their souls, and run—no questions asked—to help each other, and tell harsh truths to each other (no, you can’t wear that dress unless you lose ten pounds first) when harsh truths must be told.

I once would have said?

Damkerng T.

Oh, no. Maybe not now.

Ice Girl

09:57

Why?

Damkerng T.

She can see herself saying that some time ago.

Ice Girl

A-ha

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl I told you that "I'm not very available", so only small questions, and not many. :D

Ice Girl

OK

Sorry

(no, you can’t wear that dress unless you lose ten pounds first) What does it mean? Is it idiom?

Damkerng T.

It's a girl talk. :D

One girl (or woman) talks to another girl.

It's not quite an idiom, but it's common enough.

Ice Girl

10:03

What does it mean?

Damkerng T.

Literally, "You can't wear it, because you are too fat!"

But the original is more polite and sounds better.

Ice Girl

when harsh truths must be told. What does "harsh truths" mean?

Damkerng T.

The truths that we don't want to hear. Things like "You are fat!" :-)

But friends tell friends "harsh truths".

Ice Girl

Can I continue?

Damkerng T.

You can, but I might not be very responsive.

Ice Girl

10:10

np

Women are friends, I once would have said, when they share the same affection for Ingmar Bergman, plus train rides, cats, warm rain, charades, Camus, and hate with equal ardor Newark and Brussels sprouts and Lawrence Welk and camping.

plus train rides?

Damkerng T.

~ traveling by train

Ice Girl

warm rain?

and hate with equal ardor?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure about "warm rain". Probably it's straightforward: rain that is warm.

hate with equal ardor ~ share the same hate

Ice Girl

10:31

Newark and Brussels sprouts and Lawrence Welk and camping?

Damkerng T.

She just mentioned things she hated.

"Newark and Brussels sprouts" and "Lawrence Welk and camping".

Ice Girl

warm rain Rain, resulting from the coalescence of droplets, in clouds that are unfrozen (i.e. their upper parts are not at freezing level).

Is it true?

Damkerng T.

Probably, where is that from?

Ice Girl

From dic

But I didn't understand

I asked one question in ELL and I don't know why someone down vote me :(

Damkerng T.

10:49

It sounds rather technical. I wonder if the author used it in this sense.

Ice Girl

Newark= a large city and port in New Jersey, US, which is next to the Hudson River and across from New York City

@DamkerngT. Right?

Damkerng T.

It's a city name, yes. But I think she meant Newark sprouts and Brussels sprouts.

Not sure about Newark sprouts. But for Brussels one: macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/Brussels-sprout

Ice Girl

11:05

Camus= Albert Camus was a French Nobel Prize winning author, journalist, and philosopher. His views contributed to the rise of the philosophy known as absurdism.

Right?

@DamkerngT. Right?

Nico

@IceGirl Hi! Yes, I think Camus there refers to the French writer.

Ice Girl

@Nico Oh, hi. Thank you

@Nico Can I ask my question from you?

Nico

Yes, of course.

Ice Girl

In other words, I once would have said that a friend is a friend all the way, but now I believe that’s a narrow point of view. For the friendships I have and the friendships I see are conducted at many levels of intensity, serve many functions, meet different needs, and range from those as all-the-way as the friendship of the soup sisters mentioned above to that of the most nonchalant and casual playmates.

Why she repeated this sentence for 3 times? ( I once would have said )

She repeated it for 3 times in 3 paragraph

What does " a narrow point of view" mean?

Nico

11:21

Do you mean each paragraph starts with "I once would have said that "?

Ice Girl

Yes

Nico

It is a literary figure (a kind of trick). Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of this kind of figure.

@IceGirl do you know what "point of view" means?

Ice Girl

No

Nico

it means opinion

Ice Girl

Or thinking about

Nico

11:26

someone has a "narrow point of view" when their opinions are based on very little facts or information

maybe you could think of it as an uninformed opinion

It is also used to refer to someone that is not "open-minded"

Ice Girl

OK

Nico

open-minded = ready to entertain new ideas

narrow-minded = lacking tolerance or flexibility or breadth of view

rigidly adhering to a particular sect or its doctrines

(taken from the www.thefreedictionary.com)

Ice Girl

Thank you

Nico

@IceGirl, the literary figure we were talking about before is called anaphora

Ice Girl

@Nico See you later. Bye :)

Ok

Thanks

Damkerng T.

11:45

I wonder if "compare to" vs. "compare with" is another non-rule.

But because it's in Strunk's book, at least some people must believe so.

Perhaps it's something similar to "may" vs. "can".

Nico

It seems to be a style thing judging by the reference to Strunk and White (in the answer on EL&U)

Damkerng T.

I believe him (that the quote is authentic).

But I'm not sure about what Strunk wrote.

"belong with" went to the same direction, I think. (It was typically "belong to". Now "belong with" is everywhere.)

Nico

I think I never use "belong with"

Damkerng T.

Me neither, until I heard the song "You Belong With Me".

Nico

ngram

they may actually have a different meaning

belong with maybe actually just belong + adverbial complement of place

Damkerng T.

11:55

Interesting analysis.

Nico

See sense 3 in here

I hope you don't give "interesting" the Bristish meaning :p

Damkerng T.

Eh? Is there anything special about it in BrE?

Nico

just kidding

Damkerng T.

LOL :D

We can read The Elements of Style online!

gutenberg.org/files/37134/37134-h/37134-h.htm

2

By the way, I'm not sure if "with" can be said that it's an adverbial of place.

Nico

Compare. To compare to is to point out or imply resemblances, between objects regarded as essentially of different order; to compare with is mainly to point out differences, between objects regarded as essentially of the same order. Thus life has been compared to a pilgrimage, to a drama, to a battle; Congress may be compared with the British Parliament. Paris has been compared to ancient Athens; it may be compared with modern London.

@DamkerngT. What would it be in "Place you things with mine"?

Damkerng T.

12:06

Hmm... is it the same thing as "Leave you things with me."?

Oh, I see.

Does with mine indicate a place?

I think it does.

Damkerng T.

12:19

> compare to, compare with Use of either is SAWE (Standard American Written English) to mean either (a) "liken (something) to (something else)" (You can't compare a Volkswagen to a [or with] Rolls-Royce) or (b) "observe similarities and differnces between (something) and (something else)" (Comparing a Volkswagen to [or with] a Rolls-Royce, you notice a big difference in price).

> Caution: Many readers object to use of compare to to mean (b) and of compare with to mean (a).

Good Grammar Made Easy, Martin Steinmann and Michael Reller, p.79

helix

14:31

See Ngram: "faster compared with" vs. "faster compared to"

What does this imply?

Also, hello.

Damkerng T.

Hello @helix.

What is your suggestion? (or at least what you think the chart suggests)

helix

It reaffirms "Many readers object to use of compare to to mean (b)".

Damkerng T.

nods -- Obviously, what written in The Elements of Style is still widely believed.

On the other hand, it also confirms that both usages are valid.

Have you tried the same comparison without "faster"?

books.google.com/ngrams/…

helix

Yeah, but it doesn't tell us anything.

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if any ngram will tell us anything about "compare to" vs. "compare with".

I think the real usage is something more like "compare X to|with Y".

Do you know COCA by any chance?

helix

14:45

I didn't. Wow, this is useful.

Does using "compared with" metaphorically sound wrong to you?

Damkerng T.

Can you give me a realistic example?

Hello @Jolenealaska!

helix

Life is comparable (to|with) a pilgrimage to an unknown place.

Damkerng T.

I would go with "comparable to".

"Comparable with" sounds rather odd, in this specific case.

But if somebody wrote it with "comparable with", perhaps I wouldn't object them.

helix

Yes; It sounds wrong. >>probably just a style thing.

Damkerng T.

I think both usages, "compare to" and "compare with", are roughly equally preferred.

The case of "different from" and "different than" is another story. "Different from" is obviously the preferred one.

Ah, I've gotta go. It was a nice chat. See you later.

helix

15:10

Okay, bye.
Re: "different than" vs "different from" in the case of "**no** different (than|from)".
I'll just leave this here.
["No different than"](http://corpus.byu.edu/coca/x3.asp?xx=1&w10=no&w11=different&w12=than&)
vs ["No different from"]((http://corpus.byu.edu/coca/x3.asp?xx=1&w10=no&w11=different&w12=from&))
[NGRAM](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=no+different+than%2Cno+different+from&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cno%20different%20than%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cno%20different%20from%3B%2Cc0)

Ice Girl

@DamkerngT. Hi

@skullpatrol Hi

skullpatrol

@IceGirl hi

how are you @IceGirl?

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol Thanks. You?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl fine thanks, just getting ready to sleep in about 15 minutes

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol :(

skullpatrol

15:15

@IceGirl ask me your most important questions first

Ice Girl

OK. Wait please

skullpatrol

@IceGirl waiting...

Ice Girl

In other words, I once would have said that a friend is a friend all the way, but now I believe that’s a narrow point of view. For the friendships I have and the friendships I see are conducted at many levels of intensity, serve many functions, meet different needs, and range from those as all-the-way as the friendship of the soup sisters mentioned above to that of the most nonchalant and casual playmates.

@skullpatrol a narrow point of view?

skullpatrol

Only able to see one's own point of view. Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness

Ice Girl

Sorry?

skullpatrol

15:20

@IceGirl we each see things differently, right?

Ice Girl

right

skullpatrol

@IceGirl You have a " narrow point of view " if you can not see things the way I see them.

narrow-mindedness

@IceGirl Only able to see one's own point of view

Ice Girl

OK

For the friendships I have and the friendships I see?

What does it mean?

skullpatrol

For the friendships I have = I have friends.
and
the friendships I see = I see other people have friends.

@IceGirl compare my friends to your friends

Ice Girl

OK

conducted at?

to carry out a particular activity or process, especially in order to get information or prove facts.

right?

skullpatrol

15:28

right

Ice Girl

serve many different functions?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl have many different goals

Ice Girl

all-the-way?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl friends till we die

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol It means friends till we die?

Anonymous

15:31

@helix You can't link to COCA results. Just give a link to COCA itself, then suggest searching for no different than and no different from.

skullpatrol

@IceGirl yes

@IceGirl all-the-way to death

Anonymous

@helix Also, as an aside, the term n-gram isn't specific to Google's tool, so if you'd like you can be more specific when referring to charts you've generated with that tool. (Or not--most people will be able to figure out what you mean.)

skullpatrol

@IceGirl a friend-for-life

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol nonchalant= behaving calmly and not seeming interested in anything or worried about anything. Right?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl right

Anonymous

15:34

@DamkerngT. Comparable doesn't quite have the same licensing requirements that compare does, I think.

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol as the friendship of the soup sisters mentioned above to that of the most nonchalant and casual playmates. What does the whole sentence mean?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl the opposite of "a friend-for-life"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But note that TEoS has changed a lot over the years.

helix

@snailboat Re: COCA. Didn't know that. It wasn't introduced to me until today. Thanks.

Anonymous

@IceGirl It doesn't appear to be a whole sentence.

Ice Girl

15:36

and range from those as all-the-way as the friendship of the soup sisters mentioned above to that of the most nonchalant and casual playmates.

skullpatrol

@IceGirl compare "a friend-for-life" to its opposite type of friend

Anonymous

@helix COCA, as its name suggests, is specific to American English. It's a very handy tool, and it's often my tool of first resort. Other BYU corpora you may be interested in include GloWbE (the Global Corpus of Web-based English) and BNC (the British National Corpus)

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol I'm confused

Anonymous

GloWbE is bigger, which is a good thing, though the data isn't as good as COCA's. It helps you compare usage across different regions, but you often need to scan through the data by hand to understand what's going on with it

Anonymous

BNC is smaller, but it's specific to BrE, so it's often a helpful contrast to COCA.

skullpatrol

15:38

@IceGirl do you follow what a "a friend-for-life" is?

Anonymous

They're all accessible via the BYU site: corpus.byu.edu

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol Yes. but I didn't understand

helix

@snailboat Re: N-gram. That's why I called it Ngram instead of n-gram. Google spells theirs that way.

skullpatrol

@IceGirl can you think of what the opposite of "a friend-for-life" is?

Anonymous

@helix Yes, but it's the same word either way. "Ngram" doesn't mean Google.

skullpatrol

15:40

@IceGirl "a friend-for-a moment"

Anonymous

It might be helpful to know what n-gram means. In this context, it basically refers to a string of N words, although gram here is slightly different from word

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol A-ha.

skullpatrol

"a friend-who only needs you"

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol I said what does the whole sentence mean?

Anonymous

Google's Ngram Viewer charts the incidence of particular n-grams over time in their corpus, after some processing has been done and excluding uncommon sequences

skullpatrol

15:42

@IceGirl between these two extreme types of friends are many combinations, right?

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol right

skullpatrol

conducted at many levels of intensity

serve many functions, meet different needs, and range

Anonymous

The chart as a whole is not an "n-gram".

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol soul sisters mentioned. What does it mean?

@skullpatrol range= variety of things or people

Right?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl " friend-for-life" = soul sisters

Ice Girl

15:46

Ok

helix

@snailboat Yes; we used n-grams in Automata Theory class.
Why are you explaining this? :)

Ice Girl

range= variety of things or people
Right?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl variety in-between

Anonymous

@helix Because you used "NGRAM" in a way that was not consistent with my expectations

skullpatrol

11 mins ago, by skullpatrol

@IceGirl compare "a friend-for-life" to its opposite type of friend

Ice Girl

15:48

@skullpatrol Ok

@skullpatrol casual playmates?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl casual playmates = not serious

Anonymous

And you seemed to be unfamiliar with the available English corpora in general, so I thought I'd introduce the topic.

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol Consider these varieties of friendship: 1. Convenience friends. These are women with whom, if our paths weren’t crossing all the time, we’d have no particular reason to be friends: a next-door neighbor, a woman in our car pool, the mother of one of our children’s closest friends or maybe some mommy with whom we serve juice and cookies each week at the Glenwood Co-op Nursery.

Consider= think about

right?

Anonymous

@IceGirl Yes.

skullpatrol

@IceGirl right, I need to go

Ice Girl

15:51

if our paths weren’t crossing all the time. What does it mean?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl we live in the same area

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol Please wait

skullpatrol

@IceGirl quickly please

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol Ok

a woman in our car pool?

skullpatrol

@IceGirl we ride to work together

helix

15:53

@snailboat I know of Corpora in the linguistics sense, but I wasn't aware of COCA until Damkerng mentioned it.

Also, "not consistent" where?

Ice Girl

@skullpatrol Thank you. See you later and continue this essay with you. Bye

Anonymous

@skullpatrol See you later, skullpatrol!

skullpatrol

later

@IceGirl @snailboat

@all :-)

Ice Girl

@snailboat Can you help me?

Please

Anonymous

@IceGirl Maybe. My advice from weeks ago still stands--I think you need to be reading easier material and build up to what you're working on now.

Anonymous

15:56

You don't understand what "paths crossing" means?

Anonymous

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/cross+paths

Anonymous

You take a (figurative) path through your day. You go places, you do things. Other people have their own paths.

Anonymous

When those paths cross, you meet with them.

Anonymous

You may end up in the same class as someone else. You may run into someone at the grocery store.

Anonymous

But this is different from choosing to meet with someone.

Ice Girl

15:57

Ok

@snailboat if our paths weren’t crossing all the time. It means to meet someone by chance and not by choice

Bye all

helix

16:28

@snailboat Still can't figure out where I used n-gram wrong. :(

Anonymous

22:33

@helix Not "wrong", just counter to my expectations. It looked like you were referring to the chart as an "ngram"

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English Language Learners