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04:00 - 11:0011:00 - 23:00

Anonymous
11:00
It's not my favorite way of expressing it, but I felt it managed to get the idea across
How about "He looked toward the end of the road?"
Probably he can't see the end of the road. Hmm...
Anonymous
It's "wrong", I suppose, if it fails to communicate. But does it need to be totally normal? You aren't telling people to say "look along the road"
Of course, I wouldn't, normally.
Anonymous
So I didn't comment
But let's say what if English doesn't have this word "down".
Anonymous
11:01
Since I thought it got the point across
Anonymous
I'd use a diagram :-)
Anonymous
Prepositions are tricky.
They are!
Anonymous
Oh, I just figured out how to type dïäçrítįčś and such on my phone
11:04
Wow, so diacritic-ish!
Anonymous
I'm so proud!
You should be proud. Thumbs up for your diacritics above!
Anonymous
I don't think I often mention being a native speaker in my comments or answers.
Anonymous
I'm not sure it's always relevant.
I think what you don't think is the same as what I've observed.
Isn't it strange that some people take you as a non-native speaker sometimes?
When people assume something, they could assume aggressively incorrectly.
Anonymous
11:07
Haha! I'm not too sure what to think about that
Like Maulik once thought I'm a 20 something.
anyone uses windows 8?
Anonymous
No one uses Windows 8. It is the undiscovered country
11:08
XD
@IceGirl You mean you use Windows 8?
@IceGirl what is good in it?
everything is good
Anonymous
I wish I were able to persuade MaulikV more often. Sometimes he is very resistant to what I have to say. Of course, I've learned things from him too, like fully-fledged just the other day
11:10
better than windows 7?
YES
Of course
@IceGirl screenshot?
@snailboat I remember that fully-fledged.
Anonymous
I think my sentences come out rather differently when I type on my phone.
That typo is LOL.
11:11
time to PLAY! bye
Anonymous
It seems that speed of entry influences how I put words together.
Anonymous
This is phone me!
Anonymous
Computer me talks different.
I see. I feel kinda the same when typing. Typing is much slower than talking.
11:11
bye
See you @Utkarsh!
Anonymous
Even if you type very quickly, you can most likely talk faster
nods furiously
Anonymous
Converting kana to kanji makes entering Japanese comparatively slower, and the difference from speech more marked
What if you typed it in all hiragana, would it look bad?
Anonymous
11:15
It would be harder to read
Hah!
Isn't romaji the same?
Anonymous
Readers are used to kanji. That's the only reason
I mean, there is no kanji in romaji, right?
Anonymous
No, rōmaji is even harder to read because you have even less practice reading it
nods
Probably romaji is mostly for learners, especially beginners (like me).
Anonymous
11:17
If everyone used it all the time, it'd be fine, but they don't. I started with the Japanese writing system from day one
Oh! I think that's a good way to learn Japanese.
Anonymous
Japanese is written in Japanese 99% of the time, so training yourself to read romanized Japanese quickly is of only marginal utility
Anonymous
It pays to associate the sounds and words mentally with Japanese writing
Anonymous
I consider rōmaji an advanced tool rather than a beginner's tool
11:19
I trust you on that.
That's a surprise (about rōmaji being an advanced tool).
Anonymous
It's useful for morphological analysis
Anonymous
Kana represent CV pairs primarily, but the language itself is made of smaller units
Anonymous
But I'm not sure it's helpful to beginners to teach them a modern linguistics-style morphological analysis
Anonymous
They won't be able to follow the steps to analytically construct words in real-time as they speak, after all
I think the teacher probably needs to judge the trade-off.
Anonymous
11:23
Better to teach some examples and show how they're written in Japanese, and let them generalize
Anonymous
Japanese is after all extremely regular
Learning the theory too much and you won't really learn the language. But absolutely no theory, I'm afraid the understanding might be not adequately deep enough.
Anonymous
Jorden's method does involve teaching morphology explicitly using a structuralist analysis
@snailboat I was surprised by ka ki ku ke ko the first time I saw the table. It's cute!
Anonymous
I'm afraid that it doesn't work well for everyone :-(. But some students report great results
11:25
Is there any other way (or other arrangement)?
Anonymous
I learned how to conjugate verbs in Japanese without explicitly learning the rules, actually
Oh, you mean Jorden's method.
Anonymous
I only learned the rules after I already knew how to so it :-)
Anonymous
Do, not so. Dumb phone
I would support the idea of learning rules after learning the language.
Anonymous
11:27
More traditional analysis is based on kana.
Don't worry about the typo, I can auto-correct it. :-)
Anonymous
Instead of sin-ana-i sin-imas-u sin-u sin-e sin-oo it presents si-na-na-i si-ni-ma-su si-nu si-ne si-no-o
Ah! I am Back
@IceGirl which is the best theme in windows 8
Anonymous
But you don't have to learn either analysis to say stuff in Japanese
@snailboat Without the hyphens, I couldn't tell the differences.
@snailboat This reminds me of the case of "com-pu-ter" vs. "com-put-er".
Anonymous
11:31
In the modern analysis, it has one stem sin- to which everything attaches: negative -anai, for example.
The difference would be really small, but I think it can be crucial.
Anonymous
In the traditional analysis, it has five forms: sina, sini, sinu, sine, sino, and different things attach to different forms.
Anonymous
So negative nai attaches to the first one, sina
Anonymous
That makes it more complicated than it has to be. It's all because traditional linguists weren't willing to analyze beyond the kana level
@Utkarsh Sorry?
Anonymous
11:35
I've also found that most students of Japanese are resistant to the modern analysis for one reason or another.
@snailboat Ahh... it's probably the same in English. Instinctively, I think glitter and glamor and glorious and a few words more have something in common. But it's not that important, I think.
@snailboat Native ones?
Anonymous
No, learners have a perception that only the traditional grammatical analysis put forth by native speakers is valid, 1. because it aligns with the Japanese writing system and 2. because the modern analysis has its roots in western structuralism. The made-in-Japan analysis is felt to be more genuine, the "real thing"
Anonymous
But modern linguists inside and outside Japan have moved on from the traditional analysis.
I would feel the same way. Where else it could be more genuine? :-)
A-ha!
They want to be true to the language, I think.
looks great!
Anonymous
11:41
Unfortunately Chomskyan linguistics is now popular among linguists working on Japanese.
Probably the idea of descriptive linguistics got some effects there.
@Utkarsh Agree. :-)
Anonymous
Japanese too has prescriptive and descriptive approaches
Oh, I just found a usage of "look along the road" that backs up my example...
What does it mean?
> We should always use the Green Cross Code --
– Stop - just behind the kerb
- Look - along the road in both directions, and all around, for traffic
- Listen - sometimes we can hear traffic before we can see it
- Walk quickly and sensibly across the road. Do not run.
Anonymous
11:43
For example, it's said that zenzen must be followed with a negative. But this rule has never been widely followed, and was in fact invented in the 1950s
Anonymous
That along sounds okay to me.
> Before you go down the lane to the right of the barn, look along the road to the right of the church.
Anonymous
It is true that zenzen "completely" strongly anticipates a negative predicate, though. So much so that you can say zenzen by itself and the omitted verb will be assumed to be negative; it's taken as "not at all" rather than "completely" in that case
1950s wasn't very soon, nor very long.
I think you might know this Thai word: sawasdee.
It means "Hello".
Strangely, it was just invented in 1943. :-)
Anonymous
These examples give me the sense of turning my head to look along the road, while look down the road makes me think it's in front of me
Anonymous
11:47
Oh! Wow
Languages evolve all the time.
Anonymous
The closest thing I can think of in Japanese is midori "green"
Anonymous
Midori is an old word referring to plants
Does it still mean "plants"?
Anonymous
But it only came to mean the color green in the 40s and later
Anonymous
11:48
It can
Anonymous
Until then, ao covered both blue and green. Well, it still does, but often the primary association is blue these days since midori appeared for green
I guess that before 1943, Thais greeted others with a phrase such as "Where have you been?" or "Have you already eaten something?" :-)
Anonymous
Sawasdee!
Hello!
See, food is very important. "Have you already eaten something?" :-)
@DamkerngT. sorry to barge in, just an idea about "along". Since "along" is a preposition that carries a connotation of movement, and "look", in general, feels more like a static action, I think you need something else in the sentence to make you think some movement is involved
Anonymous
11:51
In real life I don't say hello or even hi to friends. I say hey
@Nico We discuss that in the background here too.
Anonymous
Nico, that seems like a reasonable point of view
Perhaps it's not the best rephrase it can be, but I still can't really think of the next best thing.
Movement is perhaps the key.
Judging from turning our head to look along the road seems to make more sense.
I think so
So they're close, but not identical.
I think I should edit it and add that the rephrase doesn't mean exactly the same thing.
But wait...
The full context is He went outside. He looked down the road.
Let's try my rephrasing: He went outside. He looked along the road.
Anonymous
11:57
I already upvoted, so I have no carrot to offer
I don't want to do it just for the carrot (or at least it's not all about just the carrot). :-)
I mean, I don't want to mislead the learners.
Anonymous
It might just be me, but along still makes me think of turning my head while standing to the side of the road
Suppose that you have to turn your head to look along the road...
Is it still okay if I changed "look along ..." back to "look down ..."?
> He heard a gunshot. Quickly, he ran outside. He looked along the road.
> He heard a gunshot. Quickly, he ran outside. He looked down the road.
Anonymous
Somehow along doesn't seem great there
nods
The simplest way out is perhaps just deleting my rephrase.
Anonymous
12:04
You can make a diagram by taking a photo of looking down the road and drawing an arrow on it in MS Paint :-)
J.R. just gave one photo in his comment. :-)
Anonymous
"If the road goes north-south, looking down the road could mean looking north or looking south."
I think down(ward) is opinion-based and it's relative.
I think local people should have a similar idea about which way is "down the road".
Anonymous
It's whichever direction is ahead and parallel to the road, not perpendicular
Anonymous
Oh, sometimes localities do have fixed up/down directional metaphors
Anonymous
12:09
But it didn't occur to me that it might apply here
Anonymous
I suppose real height can override that, too--if the road ahead goes up a steep enough hill, I'm not sure you could look down it
Oh, I think A Farewell to Arms should have this "down the road", but perhaps literally, because his battle was near the hills.
Anonymous
I might say it anyway, though.
Anonymous
That might all be a red herring in this context
Anonymous
I'm not sure the local up/down directional metaphors come into play
12:12
Feb 28 at 0:26, by Damkerng T.
> "What do you say, Tenente?" Bonello asked.
"We'll dig out and try once more with the brush," I said. I looked down the road. It was my fault I had led them up here. The sun was almost out from behind the clouds and the body of the sergeant lay beside the hedge.
Anonymous
Sure, I go up to San Francisco, not down, but if I were standing on the 280 looking toward SF I might say I'm looking down the road
Can you make a sentence for ( by way of contrast) ?
Anonymous
Have you searched COCA for an example?
Anonymous
It only really makes sense in a larger context, not as part of a sentence in isolation, I think
12:16
I need a sentence for it
Anonymous
That said, standing on top of a hill might incline me toward saying look down the road
Anonymous
What for, Ice Girl? It sounds like you need a paragraph for it
No I need just a sentence for by way of contrast
Anonymous
I suppose you could fit it into a sufficiently complex single sentence
Anonymous
You didn't answer though. What for?
Anonymous
12:19
The arbitrariness of your request makes it sound like homework
For my lesson
Anonymous
You can probably find one on COCA
Or on that site we found together that day.
Oh, I forgot to bookmark it.
Anonymous
We, not we've
COCA???
12:21
@snailboat Thanks.
Anonymous
The Corpus of Contemporary American English. I linked you one tome
Anonymous
Time
Can I search for every message a user posted?
Anonymous
I'm on my phone and don't have a link handy, but you can find it on Google.
Anonymous
Damkerng, SE uses a really primitive search
12:23
@IceGirl COCA is here: corpus.byu.edu/coca
Anonymous
I'm not sure it will do what you want
So I need to put my brain to use a bit more, I think.
Argh! I can't recall the name of that site.
Anonymous
Search for http said by Damkerng perhaps
Hmm... I probably said too much, 13 pages! :-)
12:27
How can I use it?
Oh, found it! This site: diki.de/englisch-woerterbuch
Oh, it's not good for this "by way of contrast".
Anonymous
Sad times
A-ha! Why don't we just use Google?
I didn't find a good sentence for it
@IceGirl Try this. Type "by way of contrast" into Google.
You will get a lot of results, including bad ones.
12:33
I tried before
To get better results, you can click on More, then Books.
This one looks good, doesn't it? -- By way of contrast, let us place ourselves at the other end of this enormous process, at the point where the tree ...
Oh! It's Friedrich Nietzsche! Hehe. "What doesn't kill you makes you stranger!"
Ooooooooooooooooooooooh, it's too long
Long sentences are good too, aren't they?
Anonymous
Reza Shah's national modernization continued well into the 1930s. The University of Tehran was inaugurated in 1934, and, in 1935, the Ancient Iran Museum was opened, along with the Iranian Farhangestan, the Academy of Literature and Language. Still functioning today, the Academy, with over 70 highly educated members, was responsible for replacing foreign words with Persian ones.
Anonymous
By way of contrast, 1935 also saw the millennium celebration to honor the birth of Ferdowsi, the great Iranian poet, who spent thirty years of his life saving Iranian culture from the Arab invasion. He finished his book of poetry on Iran shortly before he died. He always referred to his beloved country as Iran, and his masterwork, Shahnameh, reflects the important epic, legendary history of the country.
12:36
From COCA?
Anonymous
Yes
What a coincidence! (That it's about Iran.)
Anonymous
I managed to do it on my phone
@IceGirl You can keep checking Google results on page 2, 3, 4, ...
Here is what I got from page 2:
> Thus by way of contrast, all the virtues are the more easily ascertained in human society.
This is from page 3:
Anonymous
12:38
But it doesn't have any meaning out of context
> By way of contrast, interindustry trade is the exchange of products belonging to different industries.
Anonymous
Nor there
That's the flaw of the approach.
I need simple sentence with simple words
12:39
Did you look it up in a dictionary?
Anonymous
But, as Socrates suggests in the Republic and liberal political theorists like Alexis de Tocqueville have argued since, belief in some kind of god and the immortality of the soul is an almost essential foundation of a decent political order. Nietzsche himself, by way of contrast, is famous for having declared that God is dead and that there is no such thing as a soul, immortal or otherwise.
> They spent millions of dollars on advertising. By way of contrast, our small company spent under 5,000 dollars.
That's from a dictionary.
@DamkerngT. Thanks
I think most Thai translations seem to translate "by way of contrast" as [in-way-opposite].
12:42
By similar means
What does it mean?
You try.
It's the opposite of "by way of contrast".
Anonymous
"By similar means"?
Printing is defined as: The art, process, or business of producing printed material by means of inked type and a printing press or by similar means.
I think Thai would translate "by similar means" as [with-method-rhyme-same].
:D
Isn't it strange that "by" in English can be almost any prep. in Thai? :-)
Anonymous
I don't recognize that phrase as a transition opposite to "by way of contrast"
Anonymous
12:48
I would understand it if it were used that way but I think it's considerably less common
Agree. I think it's an uncommon phrase.
Probably often used in old texts or in translations.
Can you make a sentence for it?
4 mins ago, by Damkerng T.
Printing is defined as: The art, process, or business of producing printed material by means of inked type and a printing press or by similar means.
Anonymous
Of the four results in COCA, three seemed to be using the phrase literally
Anonymous
The last I wasn't sure about
Anonymous
12:51
That sentence uses it literally, Damkerng, not as a transition opposite to by way of contrast
Hello everybody.
Hello!
Anonymous
Hello! I should sleep.
12:52
@snailboat That usage could perhaps be found in legal texts.
@skullpatrol Can you make a sentence for by similar means?
Anonymous
Good night!
Isn't "by similar means" just a superfluous phrase for "similarly"?
@snailboat Bye
Hmm... Now I'm confused, who good night who?
Anyway, to whoever is going to bed, good night!
12:57
Goodbye everybody
See you soon! @IceGirl
We shall solve the second problem by similar means.
@skullpatrol What?
He just gave you an example of "by similar means". :-)
4 mins ago, by Ice Girl
@skullpatrol Can you make a sentence for by similar means?
12:59
@skullpatrol OK. Really thanks
What does say apart mean?
and also speak apart?
@DamkerngT. Help
Frankly, I've never heard it before.
@skullpatrol Help
13:03
Speak differently?
I don't know
Speak to cause conflicts?
@IceGirl try asking on main
Where did you get the phrase "speak apart"?
In my book
13:07
Do you have a full sentence?
@IceGirl do you have any context?
I would understand the two words separately, then.
@IceGirl what does the book ask?
13:11
Nothing
I need just a sentence
What language(s) do you speak apart from English?
@IceGirl What can you say apart from WOW!
I didn't understand what you said
@IceGirl which one?
2 sentences that you said
^^
right?
You make a sentence for it
6 mins ago, by skullpatrol
What language(s) do you speak apart from English?
13:19
yes
do you speak any other languages, apart from English? means don't count English
OK
What can you say apart from WOW!
What does it mean?
"Beside WOW!, what else can you say?"
If you are really amazed at something and have no words you would say:
OK
I got it
13:22
:-)
Really thanks
roughly in the middle of
What does it mean?
I think this one is quite straightforward.
roughly=approximately
a rough esimate
ok
make a sentence
please
They built a church roughly in the middle of the city.
13:28
See you later bye
@skullpatrol Thank you
later
np
@DamkerngT. You have any Blog/Website? of yours?
 
8 hours later…
22:58
@snail thanks for sharing :D
04:00 - 11:0011:00 - 23:00

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