English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

04:35

@Utkarsh TV serials must have got all of her attention. See how much the dog is bigger than the child. :-)

@Nico Perhaps it's about "appear" is a stative verb that bugged me. I was just being reminded by this great answer of StoneyB: ell.stackexchange.com/a/19593/3281.

Maulik V

04:54

I finally threw out all what I had in my mind

in meta

@DamkerngT. you there?

Damkerng T.

Somehow my computer is not very responsive.

Maulik V

uhmm

Damkerng T.

I probably need to reboot soon. :-)

Maulik V

0

Q: If anything sounds 'off' to native speakers always mean incorrect? Is this forum localized?

Most of my answers would have any one of these sentences - As a native speaker, this sounds off to me As a native speaker, I'd say.... No native speaker would ever say... In AmE, we say ..... but not sure about BrE In BrE, we say.... but not sure about AmE. This is typical Indiani...

discussion

did you read it?

Damkerng T.

Nope. Not yet.

Maulik V

04:57

hhmm read it

i put everything i had in my mind

Damkerng T.

Is it about that "na" question?

Maulik V

as it was getting too much, annoying

nah nah...

overall...everything about so-called native speakers

they simply downvote and turn me off...man....

Damkerng T.

I see.

Maulik V

simply becauswe it sounded off to them

Heck!

Do you know everything in Thai language?

Every word?

Damkerng T.

I'd say I know almost all of them.

Probably not absolutely everything, but really a lot.

Maulik V

04:59

Okay, let me put in that way...do you know every word mentioned in Thai Dictionary?

Damkerng T.

I think you could say the same about your first language too.

@MaulikV Oh, I'm afraid that I know beyond the Thai dictionary sometimes.

Maulik V

NO, I don't agree... I know Hindi, I'm a native speaker but then when it comes to grammar, I may not know many things

well, then you are exceptional and don't fit in that!

Damkerng T.

Dictionary is not about grammar, isn't it?

Maulik V

but it's about the words and phrases right?

I asked overall...

English is overall...

Damkerng T.

Probably not all.

I think we couldn't put everything about our language into a few books.

Maulik V

05:01

My title is - if something sounds of to a native, does it mean it does not exist?

Damkerng T.

You mean "sound off"?

Maulik V

off

yes

Damkerng T.

I didn't read your post there yet. But here is what I think.

If something sounds off (for a native speaker), it means that it's likely that most native speakers will think that it sounds off too.

Language always evolves.

Maulik V

and what if that sounding off to is from the grammar book/authentic source?

Damkerng T.

By that definition, a given language a hundred years ago is not exactly the same that language we have today.

Maulik V

05:04

and merely, it sounded off to them, they downvote, criticize, comment that way?

Damkerng T.

Sounds off is a good indicator, I think. Then to prove that it's really an unfavored usage, we might need to consult references (such as grammar books).

And most of the time, people are too lazy to pick up their reference books.

(Count me as one of them too. And that's why I didn't answer much lately.)

Maulik V

What you think about this ell.stackexchange.com/questions/19488/…

4

Q: Using a singular or plural verb with EITHER?

Either my parents or my sisters ARE/IS going to visit... Either my parents or my sister ARE/IS going to visit... Which one is "certainly" correct?

grammar conjunctions

Check Peter Shor's comment

he downvoted first...

Damkerng T.

I downvoted. This is wrong in one important respect. There is no grammatical rule that you need to put the plural subject last; at least, no grammatical rule that is used by native speakers. When two or more subjects are connected by or, you put the subjects in whatever order you want, and make the verb agree with the subject closest to it. — Peter Shor 8 hours ago

I agree with this comment. continue reading...

Maulik V

and then when he learned (after my comment) that that's from the book, he upvoted...still a common escape - though it's a rule, i don't think it's practiced by natives

Damkerng T.

I removed the downvote. I found this rule on the web on an ESL site, so some ESL classes really do use this rule. However, let me say that this is a "rule" that I don't believe any native speakers follow. — Peter Shor 8 hours ago

I also agree with this comment.

It reminds me of those Conditionals I, II, III that give a false impression of the usages.

I think it exists as a good guideline, but if we turned it into a rule, it could be wrong.

Maulik V

05:10

I suggest you go through my question

that gives better picture

and keep that in mind - I'm too sincere and sensitive learning the language

because in past, due to this language, many worst things has happened with me

Damkerng T.

You don't agree with these "sound off"s?

By the way, I don't think that native speakers are always correct.

Let's assume this...

Suppose that Hindi in an international language...

It's so important that everyone in Southeast Asia feels that they need to learn it.

However, nobody here speaks Hindi as their first language...

All of us learn Hindi in school...

If we say something that sounds really wrong to you, but we're fine with it, what is your opinion about our usage?

Maulik V

I'd say okay

Damkerng T.

I think I understand what you feel. It's quite frustrating.

Maulik V

every answer of mine is downvoted these days...

Damkerng T.

@MaulikV That's very kind of you. :-)

Maulik V

05:17

merely because it sounded off

and I'm not a vote hungery

hungry*

but wrong is wrong

Damkerng T.

However, I'm not sure that all native Hindi speakers will think the same as you.

Maulik V

In Hindi, if something sounds off to me and you say that I read that in a grammar book by a Hindi Grammarian..my comment would be...

Ah, that's so nice. +1, I learned something that I never practised

Damkerng T.

What if my Hindi grammar book is a little different from those written by Hindi grammarians?

Maulik V

Then I'll still appreciate because a Thai person tries hard learning the language and for him, it'll be impossible to decide which grammarian is better!

In fact, I'll appreciate a thai more!

Damkerng T.

That's why I said you are kind. :-)

Maulik V

05:20

In short, if I'm a native...

I'll dedicate myself to the hard learners especially non-natives

and will take utmost care that they are motivated and learn more

Damkerng T.

nods

Maulik V

even if they are wrong, I'll tell that smartly without making them down

Damkerng T.

I think maybe it's not about being right or wrong. Maybe it's about the approach.

And the approach is above language usage.

Like, umm... we can write something grammatically correct but cannot communicate anything at all.

Maulik V

A simple example for that Hindi thing - I'll first upvote you and then thank you telling that I never used it but it's in that book (and that book is famous) so thanks for drawing an attention. This rule helped me even further.

Damkerng T.

And we can write something that's full of grammar errors and yet can communicate nicely.

@MaulikV Agree.

Maulik V

05:23

Imagine that man.... the conversation between my teammate and me...

the scenario is Indian, the office is Indian, the conversation is between Indians...

and someone is commenting

I don't think you want to learn how a native would take this matter

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Maulik V

Heck!

Damkerng T.

I haven't seen that.

Maulik V

stop baffling that context is everything then!

when I create the whole environment and scene

clarifying the context...

0

Q: I'll finish this in ONE Day - does it mean 24 hr?

This has actually happened with me! This is the conversation I had with my teammate: Scene 1 (11 am): "Well, this is to be finished earliest possible." "Okay Maulik, this'll be done. It's easy. I'll do it in one day." "Are you sure because I think it's a bit lengthy work." "Ah, don't w...

word-usage

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I think that can be tricky in any languages. :-)

Maulik V

05:26

check David Hall's comment

that's fine

but is it mandatory that everything shoudl go through nativeness?

is it mandatory to have **

as a native... in everything?

will you do that in Thai forum?

and see the fun...

Damkerng T.

Hmm... if I got a similar comment, I might not feel as calm as I am now.

Maulik V

Crystal says and so Peter - not all natives know grammar and even further... many natives believe in nonsensical grammar!

Damkerng T.

@MaulikV You sure know me better than that, I think. I wouldn't. :-)

Maulik V

Of course

and all commit - not all native know grammar

and many believe in nonsensical grammar

so now I'll have to identify who is original native and who's not!

so, if learning from only particular author and book was not enough, I'll have to identify which native is genuine and who's nonsense!

LOL

Damkerng T.

I think they are two sides of the same coin. "Nativeness" and "Grammar".

Maulik V

05:31

did you read the question, fully?

Damkerng T.

Halfway.

Maulik V

you'll understand my question

do that

Damkerng T.

> So, a non-native like me should learn English from the books written by native only, and should confirm whether it sounds okay (though written by a native grammarian!) to the natives!

I think English is particularly unlike other languages in this respect.

There is no one "correct" grammar.

Maulik V

there are many flaws

and let me tell you

when I'm agrny, upset...

you shoudl not check my language and spellings

that's from the beginig

begining

Damkerng T.

I mean, there is no authority to control English grammar.

Maulik V

05:34

Ah, that way

there are many flaws in my wriring as well

it happens when I'm pissed off

Damkerng T.

I think sometimes English grammars can be in conflict with each another.

Hmm...

Maulik V

I agree everything...

Damkerng T.

Ah, got one. He is three miles away.

Maulik V

it's just how you treat others especially when you know more than them

Damkerng T.

Some says away is an adverb, some says it's a preposition.

14 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

I think maybe it's not about being right or wrong. Maybe it's about the approach.

Maulik V

05:37

hhm

Damkerng T.

Perhaps I should say "how we treat others" instead of "approach".

Maulik V

that's what I said

Damkerng T.

Yes, and that's above the language itself. It's the reason languages exist in the first place, isn't it?

Maulik V

imagine this

-1

Q: Aren't my cars, bikes and other estates 'real' when I'm dying?

I have two Bantleys, three Bugatis, two dwellings and a land. estate - All the money and property owned by a particular person, especially at death. real estate - Property consisting of land or buildings I know shares, stock, debentures are not real estate. Aren't above mentioned things a...

word-meaning

Damkerng T.

In short, I agree with you about how we (or they) should treat others (or learners).

Maulik V

05:38

THREE downvotes

Damkerng T.

For a question?

That's strange.

Maulik V

yes... and check this

16

Q: Toward vs. Towards

Are the words "toward" and "towards" synonymous? If not, when should I use one over the other? "Towards" usually sounds silly to my ear, but is that just me?

word-choice dialect

16 UPVOTES

The Off topic!

Tell me...

what's that?

Am I being treated specially?

My answers/questions!

Damkerng T.

It's from a different time.

Maulik V

But off topics are off topics right from the day one

aren't they?

Damkerng T.

I've noticed that most Q&A from early-2013 are much more well-received than now.

Maulik V

05:42

-1

A: It is things VS it is a thing

Read it this way - It is [the worst things] that can bring out the best in you. I think the worst things phrase is used as a single entity here. Because if they say that "it is the worst thing* that brings out the best in you, it'll create a restriction and would mean that only one particul...

downvote, no comment

I touched every aspect of it including many consider this grammatically wrong

do you find any reason downvoting it...okay downvote but then why?

Damkerng T.

I didn't downvote that one, but I think your analysis in the answer seems to be incorrect. So someone could have his or her reason to downvote it.

Maulik V

tell me..the reason in comment...right?

what's wrong in that?

Damkerng T.

They should.

Maulik V

how do I learn

Damkerng T.

I think "It is X that ..." is actually a formal usage.

Maulik V

05:45

that that's not a good answer?

without a comment?

yes...and that X here is a plural

right?

so that's fine

Damkerng T.

Yes, it's fine.

I posted a comment to the OP's question.

Maulik V

yes..exactly

but then my answer says that only

it got an immediate downvote without thinking, commenting

Damkerng T.

Hmm... my internet connection seems to be unstable.

Maulik V

hhmm

9

Q: "Physician's writing" - "to scribble like a chicken with claw"

Is there any phrase for describing when someone writes extremally illegibly? In Poland it's called "physician's script", or there's an idiom "pisać jak kura pazurem", which literally means "to scribble like a chicken with claw". It's very popular in Poland. Well, at least I've heard it on ever...

phrase-request

Damkerng T.

It was just like this last year when we'd a heavy rain.

Maulik V

05:49

This also

it got a sudden downvote

without comment!~

Crystal then upvoted it telling...there's no reason to downvote this

then others started agreeing

I mean if you don't like the answer, simply leave as it is... downvoting means that answer is CRAP and seriously misguiding someone ...right?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I haven't seen that question. It's an interesting question.

Don't worry. I've got a handful of downvotes even when I'm sure that my answers are correct. (Most of such questions have already been deleted, I think.)

The same phrase is used in English "Doctor's Handwriting" — Chenmunka 17 hours ago

I think this comment is actually the answer. :-)

Utkarsh

06:14

<----appears

Maulik V

@DamkerngT. But then that's already specified/known by the OP!

Here, many refer my handwriting as cacographic!

haha

that's why I konw that

same as cacophony for a noisy sound, unpleasant

Utkarsh

Has anyone tried AOL mail?

Utkarsh

07:12

shit

Damkerng T.

08:59

Hi @Nico

I think you got the meaning of "as to be" exactly right.

macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/as explains as to ~ concerning someone or something, with a note "formal".

I think "to be seen" is a set phrase. Not sure if we can find a good reference to back it up.

Utkarsh

09:23

@DamkerngT. what is the secret behind your success?

Damkerng T.

Patient. Consistent. Integrity.

Utkarsh

what grade you used to get

Nico

Hi everyone

Damkerng T.

@Utkarsh I had a wide range of grades. :-)

Hi @Nico

Nico

@DamkerngT. I'm reading the link

Damkerng T.

09:26

Yay!

Nico

09:48

@DamkerngT. I'm not sure, I don't see how the OP's quote could be rephrased using the word concerning.

Last night, I went quickly through some of the uses linked in the ngram and my impression is that the modern uses of "as to be" are actually uses of "so +(adjective) as to be" or comparisons "the same as to be a good citizen". That is, all of them are part of bigger construction. But, when I looked at the older usage, I found some uses similar to the OP's: (unfortunately, I can find now any of those examples, other than the OP).

"a description as to be worthy of extension"

Damkerng T.

Yes, I think the original text was from 18xx, and it written in formal style.

And it also sounds a bit archaic. Probably that was contributed by the writing style.

Ice Girl

10:33

@DamkerngT. Hi

Damkerng T.

Hi @IceGirl

Ice Girl

How are you?

Damkerng T.

I'm okay, I think. Thanks for asking. How are you?

Ice Girl

You're welcome. I'm really good

It is New Year in Iran

Do you know?

Damkerng T.

Hah! I didn't know that. That sounds great! Happy New Year!

Ice Girl

10:39

Thank you

Damkerng T.

How would you celebrate the New Year? Is there a party there?

(How about a cake? :-)

Ice Girl

No party. We go to family's house and visit them

Cake???

Damkerng T.

I see. I just thought that you might have a New Year cake too.

Ice Girl

:)

Damkerng T.

Perhaps it's a different kind of New Year. Sounds like it's time for the family rather than time for entertaining. :-)

Ice Girl

10:44

I'm not happy

Damkerng T.

Oh, during the New Year? Why so? What happened?

Ice Girl

:(

Damkerng T.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

Ice Girl

np

I just crying these days

Damkerng T.

Cry as much as you need, then get back to your feet and move on.

Anonymous

10:50

I'm confused by "so-called native speakers".

Ice Girl

He bought for me BMW but I didn't accept it

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Perhaps it means "native speakers", I think.

@IceGirl BMW is an expensive gift, isn't it?

Anonymous

But why "so-called"?

Ice Girl

Yes

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Who said that? Maulik on meta?

Anonymous

10:52

And in here.

Damkerng T.

I think he got upset.

I had a short chat with him, but I didn't know how to help him.

Anonymous

I've downvoted MaulikV before, but it was never about native versus non-native. I only downvoted if I thought an answer was wrong enough to need labeling as wrong (to other users)

Damkerng T.

Btw, I just got a similar comment...

“He walked down the road” and “he walked along the road” sound fine to me. So does “he looked down the road”, but “he looked along the road” sounds off. That might be because his actual vantage point is stationary. — user2619 24 mins ago

Anonymous

I've also upvoted his answers

Damkerng T.

I think this user has a point, so I'm still working on it...

Anonymous

10:55

I thought the same thing: "he looked along the road" is strange

Damkerng T.

I probably will rephrase it.

Utkarsh

Gasp!

Damkerng T.

I just wanted to rephrase it into something simpler.

But it's hard.

It's like... trying to rephrase "down".

Anonymous

It is.

Damkerng T.

"along" is the next best thing to "down" that I could think of.

Anonymous

10:58

You can use a diagram.

Damkerng T.

But it probably indeed sounds off. The problem is... is it wrong

Anonymous

Wrong is a funny word

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Argh! I don't like to draw a diagram. :-)

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