English Language Learners - 2014-03-19

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GATA

06:42

HI :) would someone please check this sentence? "Put the knife curve on the paper and seesaw it gently."

Or, should I use "lay" ,"rest" or maybe "push" instead of "put"?

Nico

do you mean the knife blade?

GATA

06:57

Yes.

Nico

@GATA for looking up collocation of word I find very useful this dictionary

Damkerng T.

@Nico Nice link!

GATA

@Nico Thank you :)

@DamkerngT. Hi :)

Damkerng T.

@GATA I probably say, "Place the blade on the paper and see-saw it gently."

Hi!

Nico

+1 for DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

07:00

I'm not sure about "knife curve", though I'm sure that there are curve knives.

GATA

Thank you that sounds better :)

Damkerng T.

Anyway, I'm not good at knife thingies. :-)

Thank you @Nico; No problem @GATA.

GATA

me either :)

Nico

@DamkerngT. only when not vivisecting English sentences :p

Damkerng T.

:D

4 hours later…

Damkerng T.

10:41

@ParthKohli I like your avatar. :-)

Parth Kohli

@DamkerngT. Even though it's not my work, thanks!

Do you read Cyanide and Happiness?

Damkerng T.

I'm sorry, I don't know about it.

Parth Kohli

It's amazing.

Damkerng T.

Looking it up...

Oh, your avatar is from Cyanide & Happiness. :-)

Parth Kohli

Yup! Rob DenBleyker's comics, specifically.

Damkerng T.

10:49

I think it's a bit irony, definitely hilarious.

Maulik V

11:16

Hiya folks

Parth, which city you belong to?

3 hours later…

GATA

13:52

Could someone please tell me in what kind of context we should use "divulge"? I think it is mostly used in formal speech.

2 hours later…

Jolenealaska

15:47

@GATA To divulge is to tell someone else something, usually something that was in some way secret. It's not particularly formal, it's pretty day-to-day language

GATA

16:27

@Jolenealaska Thank you :)

5 hours later…

Damkerng T.

21:20

0

Q: Transforming "forgive me for we forgive our enemies" into a simple sentence

The way I understand it, the sentence 'forgive me for we forgive our enemies' has a coordinating conjunction i.e. for and hence it could be considered a 'compound sentence' having two independent clauses. If that is correct, is there a way to transform this sentence into a 'simple sentence' with...

It's a rather odd sentence in meaning, not that it's ungrammatical or anything.

I'm trying to imagine the scene where the speaker speaks that line; still couldn't come up with one that makes perfect sense.

I think it's a perfect line for things like "The Walking Dead".

Ah, MMJZ rephrased it as Forgive me in the same way we forgive our enemies. Not bad at all.

Nico

21:56

@DamkerngT. I understand it as in "forgive us for forgiving our enemies"

Damkerng T.

@Nico That would sound perfectly fine.

I mean the original sentence is a bit weird. Need a good context, I think.

Nico

@DamkerngT. Imagine...

Romeo and Juliet

Romeo's family blames him for loving Juliet

he could say that sentence

...

not quite

Damkerng T.

"Forgive us for forgiving our enemies" is fine, I think.

Nico

he would say "forgive me for I forgive our enemies"

Damkerng T.

our enemies ~ Juliet, and us ~ Romeo and Juliet

Nico

22:02

our enemier ~Juliet and her family

Damkerng T.

Yes, the we gave me a pause the first time I read it.

Nico

yes

you are right "us" is Romeo and Juliet

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It does seem a bit unusual, doesn't it?

Damkerng T.

It does. :-)

Anonymous

I read it as containing the causal subordinator for. It marks a subordinate clause, and this subordinate clause gives the reason for the main clause. This is unusual following an imperative.

Anonymous

22:05

The order is fixed: For we forgive our enemies, forgive me. is probably not a good sentence.

Damkerng T.

To me, its structure is fine, its usage is rather odd.

Almost as odd as when a student said to his teacher, "Forgive me for she forgives my friend".

Anonymous

The order is not fixed with most subordinators, so that is a little unusual, too.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A student said that?

Anonymous

I think that sentence is semantically unusual.

Damkerng T.

Nope. I just made it up. I mean "she forgiving my friend" has nothing to do with "forgive me". :-)

Anonymous

22:07

If you want that to be a hypothetical, you should use says instead of said

Damkerng T.

That semantically unusual was what gave me a pause the first time.

Anonymous

(That's why I asked the question I did.)

Damkerng T.

I see. I tried to be irrealis. :-)

Anonymous

Then you'd have to use if instead of when.

Anonymous

In that case, said would be fine.

Nico

22:08

What about “forgive me because we forgive our enemies”?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Agree. Thank you.

Anonymous

@Nico To me, that sounds like a sentence with the same meaning but less formal diction.

Damkerng T.

I think we is also a tricky word.

Both in Thai and in English.

Nico

I don't know why, but even the original sentence sounds good to my ear

Anonymous

I don't see anything wrong with the original sentence.

Damkerng T.

22:10

It could mean I, it could mean both you and I, and could mean all you, they, and I.

Anonymous

When I say it sounds unusual, that doesn't mean I think it sounds wrong.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's contextually constrained!

Anonymous

You could say it's deictic.

Damkerng T.

I've seen this word quite often here, I think.

Anonymous

Deixis is linguistics jargon.

Damkerng T.

22:12

I think I might have seen it in StoneyB's posts.

Anonymous

Contrast with anaphor(a)

Damkerng T.

Anaphora ~ referring back?

Anonymous

Yes.

Anonymous

Cataphora ~ referring forward.

Damkerng T.

nods

To me, it might make more sense if it were "Forgive me for you forgive our enemies".

But I think if "you" makes sense, then "we" should also make sense.

Probably.

Anonymous

22:16

@DamkerngT. That sentence is more confusing.

Damkerng T.

Isn't it more direct?

Nico

@snailboat, would you say "forgive me for we speak with our enemies" sounds unusual?

Anonymous

I understood the original sentence as an appeal to reciprocity: We forgive our enemies. Why don't you forgive me, just like I'd do for you?

Anonymous

@Nico Yes.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But I'm not sure why you would forgive our enemies.

Anonymous

22:18

That's difficult to interpret.

Anonymous

And if you did, what would it have to do with the main clause imperative?

Nico

@snailboat, and "forgive me for we leave", is it also unsual?

Anonymous

@Nico Yes.

Anonymous

I like when people ask me questions I can answer :-)

Anonymous

"Unusual? Yep!"

Damkerng T.

22:20

Say, this "I" have been observed that this "you" usually forgive the enemies (which happens to be the enemies of both of this "you" and this "I"), this "I" knows that "you" will forgive more enemies in the future too, if possible.

Anonymous

I feel like I should be saying something more useful in addition that yep, though.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I can't make heads or tails of it, though I could understand it if it were "you forgive your enemies"

Pro-grammer

hello all :)

Anonymous

Hello!

Anonymous

Welcome to ELL chat!

Pro-grammer

22:21

Thank you!

Damkerng T.

Hello!

Pro-grammer

How are you all?

Awh so welcoming :)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I was thinking of a scene during a war.

Anonymous

room topic changed to English Language Learners: A room to talk about English, linguistics, or anything you want! But remember this is a public room: do not give out personal contact information here. (no tags)

Damkerng T.

This "I" might help out one of the enemies. This "I" is a subordinate of this "you".

Anonymous

22:23

@DamkerngT. My brain doesn't accept that

Anonymous

I think you excludes I unless you're using the generic you.

Damkerng T.

In my case, "you" and "I" are two different people, but they share the same enemies.

Anonymous

I understand that from your explanation, but I still can't make the sentence make sense in my brain.

Anonymous

Poor brain.

Nico

@snailboat, I've found a few occurrences, but mostly old books.

Anonymous

22:25

@Nico Uh-huh.

Anonymous

15 mins ago, by snailboat

When I say it sounds unusual, that doesn't mean I think it sounds wrong.

Nico

i know i knwo

Anonymous

It's very formal in style.

Nico

i'm trying to understand what makes it sound unsual, nervermind

Anonymous

Hmm.

Damkerng T.

22:27

Say, A ("I") knows that B ("you") is falling in love with a captive woman, and B secretly takes care of her and her family rather well. B tries to make it not obvious as much as he could. One day, A let a prisoner run away. B is about to punish A. Then A begs "Forgive me for you forgive our enemies."

Anonymous

I'm sorry, my comments were unhelpful. :-(

Anonymous

Not all uses of this for sound equally unusual.

Anonymous

These days, the most common uses might be in fixed expressions:

Anonymous

> Forgive me, for I have sinned.

Anonymous

Everyone knows this phrase whether it's used in their religion (if applicable) or not.

Damkerng T.

22:28

@snailboat thinking of 'Les Misarables' :-)

Anonymous

In general, this use of for is somewhat less common and rather formal. It might be called literary.

Anonymous

But "Forgive me for we leave" and "forgive me for we speak with our enemies" . . . Hmm . . .

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Spelling :-)

Anonymous

These are a bit different because the for-clause appears to be present tense

Anonymous

(Not subjunctive: it would be for he leaves, not *for he leave)

Anonymous

22:31

So which interpretations do we have for present in this case? A habitual interpretation, or a near future interpretation, perhaps?

Anonymous

Semantics is hard stuff. I'm not sure I can give a good explanation of why those seem strange to me.

Anonymous

And perhaps for has multiple interpretations as well . . .

Damkerng T.

B did it for a while (letting his love and her family live happily in the camp). B keeps doing it. It's rather obvious that B will continue doing it.

Forgive me for I let him go. is also possible, I think.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That seems fine to me.

Anonymous

Oh, I just noticed the potential ambiguity.

Anonymous

22:34

It seems fine to me because I interpreted let as past tense :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see.

Anonymous

I guess in the present tense it sounds like it's habitual . . .

Damkerng T.

I think both are possible (past or present), depending of the intention.

@snailboat In Forgive me for you forgive our enemies, I purposefully use the present tense.

Anonymous

And that seems strange given the context. You're asking for forgiveness although you're probably going to do it again. And for that matter, why are you in a position to let this guy go so often? :-)

Damkerng T.

Forgive me for you forgive our enemies ~ Forgive me (that I let him go), for you (too) forgive our enemies.

Anonymous

22:37

@DamkerngT. It's not wrong exactly, it just requires a rather non-straightforward interpretation that takes a lot of explanation, so I'm not really fond of it as a sentence

Damkerng T.

Me (n)either. :-)

(See, I doubly use the phrase, hoping that it might be the first in your corpus. :-)

Anonymous

You're conscious of your (n)eitherdom!

Anonymous

Lessee.

Anonymous

@Nico I tried to type out my thoughts (above), but I'm not sure I can usefully explain.

Anonymous

That's why I was originally sticking to terse answers like "Yes"

Anonymous

22:39

I'm not sure I can do a good job of explaining. But you could turn it into an ELL question.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Searching!

Damkerng T.

@Nico I think using for to mean because is rather formal.

Anonymous

By the way, I don't take logs from SE.

Nico

I don't fully understand

Anonymous

Yes, I agree with that. Also, for-clauses (expressing cause) usually follow their main clause.

Anonymous

22:41

> 1. I went to the store because I had no milk.
> 2. Because I had no milk, I went to the store.
> 3. I went to the store for I had no milk.
> 4. *For I had no milk, I went to the store.

Nico

i mean I'm yet to understand what makes it unusual

can I nag you with more examples?

Anonymous

You can ask stuff. I can't guarantee I can give a good answer, but I can try :-)

Damkerng T.

Please nag. :-)

Nico

what about "forgive me for our forgiving of our enemies"?

Damkerng T.

FF just post an answer to that question. reading...

Anonymous

22:42

@Nico There, for is a preposition. Our forgiving of our enemies is a noun phrase.

Anonymous

That use of for is somewhat more common, and not quite as restricted to formal speech

Damkerng T.

I think so, too.

Nico

but does it sound unusual?

Anonymous

It sounds less unusual.

Anonymous

I don't think the subordinator for always expresses cause . . . Hmm . . .

Damkerng T.

22:45

Definitely not always.

> I sold my notebook for a few bucks.

Anonymous

That's the preposition for.

Anonymous

A subordinator, also called a subordinating conjunction, introduces a subordinate clause, not a noun phrase

Anonymous

(Some modern grammars do away with the conjunction terminology.)

Damkerng T.

Hah! Poor conjunction.

Anonymous

Well . . .

Anonymous

22:48

Ahh, spicy food!

Anonymous

My tongue is on fire. :-)

Damkerng T.

Got milk?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I found zero results for (n)either

Anonymous

No, I don't drink milk.

Damkerng T.

I've heard that milk is the best to fight for your tongue being on fire.

Anonymous

22:49

What would be the point of spicy food if I didn't want my tongue to be on fire? :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh... true, that.

@snailboat Yay!

Nico

OK, I think now I get it (after reading FF's answer). Does it sound unusual because when we start reading "forgive me for" we think "for" is a preposition, but when we continue reading we realise that it is an old fashion use of "for" as a conjunction?

Damkerng T.

I think for in "Forgive me for we think ..." or "Forgive me for I am poor" (FF's example) is still a conjunction.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, it is.

Nico

yes, they are

but we don't know until we continue reading

Damkerng T.

22:53

A-ha! That's possible.

Nico

we are more used to saying "forgive for being a sinner" :p

than "forgive me for I am a sinner"

Anonymous

The answer to the OP's question is "no".

Damkerng T.

I would say none of the answers is a simple sentence.

Nico

well... it's bed time for me. It was nice be present at this vivisection session of an English sentence!

Anonymous

Poor sentence!

Damkerng T.

22:56

It's nice for me too. Have a good rest. Good night! @Nico

@snailboat I think it's okay, a sentence is not a frog. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah! That was dissection we did . . . :-)

Anonymous

A pithed frog is, one hopes, not alive by the usual definitions.

Anonymous

Though its heart may yet beat . . .

Anonymous

Oh, no! The ellipsis police have come for me!

Anonymous

They've delivered a formal reprimand. I can no longer trail off at the end of my sentences!

Anonymous

22:58

What to do, what to do?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Shew him away.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I cain't, it's all official-like!

Damkerng T.

:-)

Oh, this reminds me of the phrase "You got served".

I can't remember when I heard it the first time. But I can remember that I thought to myself, "What a strange usage!". :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, it has no obvious literal meaning to me.

Anonymous

It's probably not related to 'You got served [with legal papers]!' :-)

Damkerng T.

23:04

@snailboat It is! Usually the delivery person would walk away quickly, before the recipient could say something like "Hey, you! Come back. You service is not satisfactory!"

I think usually, the recipient would say something like "Oh, !@#$!"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It is? Where can I read about this connection?

Damkerng T.

Isn't it a typical usage? (Did I hear it wrong?)

Anonymous

Well, people say "you got served" fairly often. In fact, I think it's the title of a TV show.

Anonymous

I don't think that show is about serving people legal papers.

Anonymous

So the question is: is it from that usage? Or is unrelated?

Damkerng T.

23:08

I've seen it often enough in movies. Some guy tricked the recipient to receive a legal paper, and then said "You got served!", and walked away quickly, before the recipient even realized what just happened.

Anonymous

I've never actually heard that phrase before in the context of serving legal papers :-)

Anonymous

If I did, I'd assume they were making a joke.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps!

Anonymous

I question where you're finding all these movies that make this joke :-)

Damkerng T.

Trying to recall ....

Anonymous

23:10

I could also see it coming from serve in sports.

Anonymous

3

A: Are you being served/helped?

In this specific situation, being on a US college campus, the fact that your usage of "I'm being served" was most likely found to be funny because of the modern urban usage of of the phrase "you got served". Among the younger generations, specifically those currently at college and younger, to b...

Anonymous

ELU doesn't have a question about where "you got served" came from.

Anonymous

I wonder if anyone knows

Damkerng T.

UD describes "You got served" with a movie-like script!

Anonymous

Dang. Zero useful results in COCA

Anonymous

23:17

You Got Served was a January 2004 movie.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... Perhaps it's originated from a more common phrase "It serves him right!"

Maybe in the past tense.

Anonymous

> You Got Served opened at the #1 spot, knocking The Butterfly Effect to #2. It had generally poor reviews, earning a 17% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes.[2]

Anonymous

The Butterfly Effect was a good movie.

Damkerng T.

The one that good-looking guy was in?

Hmm... What's his name?

It's stuck on my tongue.

A-ha! Ashton Kutcher! (I just iMDb it.)

Anonymous

Yes. Ashton Kutcher :-)

Damkerng T.

23:20

His name sounds very kosher. :-)

Anonymous

Ashton Kotcher!?

Damkerng T.

:D

Perhaps because some people here (in Thailand) pronounced his name as "ash-ton-ko-sher".

So I remember him that way. :D

Anonymous

Ah, without a stop.

Damkerng T.

Nope. Four syllables, consecutively.

Anonymous

I mean without /t/, which is a stop consonant: /ˈkutʃər/ → /ˈkuʃər/

Damkerng T.

23:23

Definitely no stop consonant there.

Anonymous

And the /u/ changes, too?

Damkerng T.

The vowel can vary, though.

Some says [u], some says [o].

I think I haven't heard his name pronounced in Thai enough times to be sure.

Anonymous

At some point, I internalized Japanese loanword phonology, and I started being able to pronounce or recognize English words through the filter of Japanese. That was before I ever studied it specifically

Anonymous

But the truth is, it's not a 100% thing. There's variance.

Anonymous

So you have to be skeptical of any rules which claim specifically which vowel substitutes for which, and so on.

Damkerng T.

23:26

Btw, the president's name is "o-ba-MA", for us. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. How do you pronounce his first name, Thanks?

Damkerng T.

"ba-ruk"

Anonymous

Sorry, that was a joke.

Damkerng T.

"ba-ruk-o-ba-MA"

Oh, I didn't get the joke. :D

Anonymous

I pretended his name was Thanks Obama

Anonymous

23:27

Because people say that so much.

Anonymous

(It's a meme. Some people say it seriously, and others say it playfully, perhaps mocking the people who say it seriously.)

Damkerng T.

Maybe "TANG-o-ba-MA" then.

(We usually drop [s], and that affects our English grammar too.)

That, sounds more like what I probably pronounce it in Thai. :D

The Butterfly Effect is a great movie.

I think it's one of a kind.

Anonymous

23:59

@DamkerngT. Oh, same in Japanese. It's weird when you see an English word that always has an -s without one in Japanese :-)

Anonymous

The example I used the other day was congratulation!

Anonymous

It sounds so stingy. Why do you only get one congratulation? Most people give more than one :-(

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