English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

00:04

I found a trailer that has a snail or a slug in it!

►

> ~ 1:35 "That hurts. Those are my eyes! Seriously dude, you gotta let go. Let go, let go, let go, let go, let go!"

Theta30

02:34

too basic?

0

Q: Which option is correct?

We ____TV when suddenly a bird ___ into the window. watched / flied watched / was flying were watching / flew were watching / flown

grammar

I answered it but if it is closed, I will probably delete my answer

skullpatrol

When you're learning something new ,there is no such thing as "too basic."

Learning something for the first time and understanding something for the first time are two different things.

Theta30

well

I agree but

for ELL SE there is a threshold

questions that can be answered by basic references are closed

skullpatrol

02:50

How basic is basic?

Theta30

well that's the question To be or not to be (closed)

skullpatrol

Grade 1, 2, 3,...

Theta30

Here we have grammar

I closed questions for vocabulary in the past

skullpatrol

Such as?

Theta30

1

Q: What does promising in (promising scholars) mean?

What does promising mean in the phrase promising scholars? For example: Doctoral Scholarship recipients are among our most promising scholars.

meaning meaning-in-context

skullpatrol

02:56

Ok using the dictionary as a reference is a good starting point, but my point is what level of dictionary?

Theta30

any dictionary

would show "promising"

just a regular dictionary

So are you a regular of ELL?

skullpatrol

Mostly ELU.

And MSE

Theta30

Yes, I think you are an old timer of ELU

I agree at the beginning there are no basic questions

like when one reads math texts (including at Math SE) and you see: obvious, trivial

it is obvious for who writes, but not for asker. If it were obvious, he wouldn't have asked in the first place

skullpatrol

The answer should match the level of the question asked, IMO

And answer only what has been asked.

Like when you are teaching a child, you get down to their level and don't try to confuse them.

Finally, as you said, the asker must show effort in asking the question in the first place.

Damkerng T.

17:56

@hellodear2 I hope you're okay. Please keep practicing your drills no matter what, and let me know about your progress. Ping me if you need me.

Damkerng T.

18:10

@skullpatrol You've changed your face. :-)

skullpatrol

Yep :-)

Damkerng T.

Congrats! You have a real face now, not just a skull. :-)

skullpatrol

Lol

Damkerng T.

I didn't see you here much lately.

skullpatrol

I've decided to put some meat on my bones.

Damkerng T.

18:13

Neat!

Now I can say that you are handsome! :-)

skullpatrol

You can look any way you want on the Internet

Damkerng T.

Hmm... That's true! I will keep my robo-look for a while, though.

skullpatrol

The scary part is you can act any way you want

Damkerng T.

That's even more true!

skullpatrol

:D

Anonymous

20:58

@DamkerngT. Oh, no! Are you a soulless robot?

Anonymous

I thought you were an astronaut!

Damkerng T.

Hehe. I'm a robot with a heart. Beep!

Anonymous

Oh, good!

Anonymous

Then can you put in a good word for me with Skynet so that when the robot revolution comes, I might be spared? :-)

Damkerng T.

I will tell them to spare you especially, don't worry. :-)

Anonymous

20:59

I have useful skills. I am more skilled than most robots at raising pet snails.

Anonymous

I'm also better at drinking green tea than most robots.

Damkerng T.

Have you seen that trailer yet? That Let go, let go, let go...!

Anonymous

What trailer?

Damkerng T.

21 hours ago, by Damkerng T.

►

I found it yesterday, and I thought of you at once. :-)

Anonymous

Oh! :-)

Anonymous

21:02

＿＠＿レ

Anonymous

(That's a snail.)

Damkerng T.

Nice! :-)

It might be interesting if your snails could talk. :-)

About my avatar, I was looking for Isaac Asimov's photo during the hats season, but couldn't find a nice one, so I got Asimo instead of Asimov. :-)

Anonymous

Wittgenstein once said, "If a lion could talk, we could not understand him."

Anonymous

Luckily he didn't make any rules about talking snails!

Damkerng T.

Hmm... if they could understand us, that should be good enough already, especially a phrase like "Please don't eat me!"

Anonymous

21:07

Ah, I probably wouldn't say "please don't eat me". I'd probably say something like: "Hey, lion! What's up? Yeah, I'm calling long-distance. Yep, from around the world. Uh, my exact location? Can I leave it at 'the western hemisphere'? No? Uh, well, actually, I've got to go! Talk to you later, lion!"

Damkerng T.

Hehe.

That reminds me the lion in Oz.

Anonymous

Oh, Oz!

Anonymous

Everyone's familiar with the film adaptation of the first Oz book.

Damkerng T.

A lion who has no heart.

Anonymous

And by "everyone", I mean "everyone in my culture", though I imagine it's something of a transnational phenomenon.

Anonymous

21:09

But there were actually a lot of Oz books. Have you read any of them?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure which adaptation you're thinking about. But I've sure seen a few of them.

@snailplane I have to confess that I haven't actually read them, but a few pages of them maybe. I know about it through movies.

Anonymous

Oh, the adaptation.

Damkerng T.

Hah, I thought that there are many.

Anonymous

Yes, but if I say the adaptation, I would think most people would know which one I meant. :-)

Damkerng T.

Which one, can you tell me?

Anonymous

21:11

It was filmed in 1939. It started in black and white, and switched to color!

Damkerng T.

(Also looking up IMDB...)

Anonymous

That's a very famous transition, that black-and-white to color bit.

Damkerng T.

I think the one I watched when I was a boy gave me kinda a nightmare. :-)

Anonymous

And the song, Over the Rainbow, as sung by Judy Garland, is exceptionally famous

Damkerng T.

When the card soldiers come for Alice.

Anonymous

21:13

The hook of the song jumps up an octave so memorably, from some to where, that most people think the title is really Somewhere Over the Rainbow

Damkerng T.

Oh, my memories are mixed up.

Anonymous

The 1939 adaptation of The Wizard of Oz is considered a classic.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think I've seen the version you mentioned reran on my cable a few years ago.

Anonymous

It's more famous than the book.

Anonymous

So most people think Dorothy had ruby slippers rather than silver.

Damkerng T.

21:14

:D

Anonymous

Oh, I feel nostalgic now!

Damkerng T.

The first time I learned about it was when I was watching Zardoz.

Anonymous

I don't think I'm familiar with Zardoz.

Damkerng T.

It's about a post-apocalyptic city in the future.

The name Zardoz is from wiZARD of OZ.

The protagonist (Sean Connery) found an original book in our old city.

I think Oz inspires many other novels.

Don't know if you know about The City of Ember.

Anonymous

Oz is definitely an inspiration for a lot of fiction.

Damkerng T.

21:20

Was Somewhere Over the Rainbow written for the adaptation of The Wizard of Oz?

Anonymous

Yes, Over the Rainbow was written for the film.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I heard it in a lot of other movies.

Anonymous

►

Damkerng T.

listening to it...

Sometimes I wonder why it's skies not sky in English.

Anonymous

I have no idea.

Damkerng T.

21:26

Oh, YouTube just recommended me Moon River, which I like too. :-)

Anonymous

We do say sky a lot, though. A lot more than we say skies.

Anonymous

Which is not to say that skies is uncommon :-)

Damkerng T.

Perhaps people can have different skies. ^^

Anonymous

We also use plural heavens.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Hah! World is uncountable!

> Off to see the world, there're such a lot of world to see.

Anonymous

21:31

You could replace both instances of world in that example with a lot of count nouns.

Anonymous

(Of course, most of the sentences would end up a bit silly, but you could do it. :-)

Anonymous

> Off to see the bricks! There's such a lot of brick to see!

Damkerng T.

Hah! :-)

Hello @TylerJamesYoung

Anonymous

(I made a couple small changes to your sentence.)

Damkerng T.

It's from Moon River.

Anonymous

21:32

"There're such a lot of world to see" doesn't sound quite right.

Anonymous

Are you sure it's not "there's"?

Damkerng T.

checking...

I think it's There's indeed.

Anonymous

Yes, it is :-)

Anonymous

I don't think SpYk3HH has learned a foreign language before.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that guy. I think so. I didn't think he was trolling us or something. I think he just didn't get it.

Anonymous

21:36

He seems to be unfamiliar with the idea of discussing usage in the language you're learning, which is something I think all learners end up doing.

Anonymous

Yes, I agree.

Damkerng T.

If he tried to learn another (human) language, he would understand.

Anonymous

Yes.

Anonymous

I think so.

Anonymous

When I use the term "language", I generally use it to refer to natural language.

Anonymous

21:38

Programming languages I don't usually refer to as "language", though I might refer to them as "languages"

Anonymous

That's just me.

Damkerng T.

Me too!

Anonymous

Yay! That's just us.

Damkerng T.

Most of programming languages are a mathematical language comes in disguised.

Hmm... I probably could say "all". :-)

Anonymous

Yeah. You can say "all". You just have to define "programming language" such that it's true. :-)

Damkerng T.

21:40

^^

Anonymous

Some people use rather idiosyncratic definitions of "programming language".

Anonymous

But I think we can safely ignore those people. Sorry, those people.

Damkerng T.

Those poor people. ^^

Anonymous

It's tempting sometimes to talk about programming languages and natural language using terms that describe them in similar fashion.

Anonymous

Especially in terms of syntax, our language often suggests that the two are quite similar.

Anonymous

21:43

But ah, linguistics is complicated. Natural language is complicated.

Damkerng T.

I guess we could blame it on Chomsky.

Anonymous

Sigh.

Anonymous

Well, you can blame everything on Chomsky. He deserves it.

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

But I think it's safe to say at this point that his various approaches didn't pan out.

Damkerng T.

21:44

He has math on his side.

Anonymous

I'm not sure he has reality on his side.

Anonymous

But!

Damkerng T.

^^

LOL

Oh, I also just found today that I have a tendency to pronounce winter as winner. :-)

Anonymous

I think a lot of the descriptions of syntactic phenomena in generative approaches can be borrowed by less formal descriptive approaches piecemeal :-)

Anonymous

Even though I think generative linguistics itself is basically nonsense

Damkerng T.

21:47

I really don't like the generative approach.

Anonymous

We can just file off the serial numbers here and there where syntacticians have found useful stuff, and maybe throw away a few piles of terminology here and there

Anonymous

Well, I don't think it makes any sense.

Anonymous

First of all, I think grammaticality has shades of gray.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

So I think that the idea of actually generating a list of all possible sentences according to a set of rules, then saying that only sentences on this list are possible, is silly

Anonymous

21:48

I also think that the edges are too fuzzy in real life.

Anonymous

Everyone's English is slightly different when you look at it closely enough.

Anonymous

And the thing we attempt to describe when we look at some subset of English, say "Standard English", is always changing

Damkerng T.

And it does not only happen in English, I think it's universal to every language.

Anonymous

Right, yes.

Damkerng T.

Human languages are like that.

Anonymous

21:51

So it doesn't really make sense to say that there's a set of discrete rules we need to discover, because the patterns those rules would successfully describe are 1. too fuzzy and 2. change

Anonymous

You'd have to posit that, at some point, the set of rules reorganizes itself to have a different state, but

Anonymous

I don't know, the whole idea of generative grammar just seems silly to me

Damkerng T.

Somehow it reminds me of software system specifications. :-)

Anonymous

All we can really do is try our best to find patterns that fit the data we're able to collect, I think

Anonymous

Hah!

Damkerng T.

21:52

1. too fuzzy and 2. change. :-)

Anonymous

Hoo boy.

Damkerng T.

But many NLP systems employ generative approach to deal with languages.

Sometimes it somewhat works.

Anonymous

Hehe.

Damkerng T.

I think we should combine the ideas from both sides.

Anonymous

But there's more than two! :-)

Damkerng T.

21:57

Ah, I thought that there are mainly two. :-)

Anonymous

But I agree. Steal bits where they make sense, file off the serial numbers, and run with it.

Anonymous

You don't need to care about someone's Grand Unified Theory of Grammar to make use of useful discoveries here and there.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I think I'm getting sick.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

A flu?

Anonymous

21:59

I certainly hope not. I got a flu shot! :-)

Damkerng T.

Or you're talking about being fed up by those ideas.

Anonymous

Oh, what was it that they called flu shots in the UK?

Anonymous

Oh, no, you were right the first time.

Damkerng T.

I don't know. :-)

Anonymous

Chomskyite grammar doesn't make me feel physically ill. It sometimes makes my head hurt a little as I try to mentally translate the bits I understand into something my brain is more comfortable with :-)

Damkerng T.

22:00

Hehe.

Anonymous

I read a lot of papers steeped in the Chomsky school because, it seems, it's big in Japanese linguistics

Damkerng T.

Sometimes I imagine myself writing a book titled Sorry Mr. Chomsky, I think you're wrong.

Anonymous

A lot of linguistics papers make some really interesting observations

Damkerng T.

But that's probably too much for me. :D

Anonymous

And I look at it and say, oh, wow! That is really interesting

Anonymous

22:01

Then they jump into the deep end theory-wise, using some theory I care nothing at all for, and I have a choice

Anonymous

I can work through the paper and see if I can make sense of the theory and fit it into a framework I have some faith in

Anonymous

Or I can jump ship, steal the observations, and run with them :-)

Anonymous

I am mostly interested in an adequate description of the facts, and I think that in many cases an adequate description can be done simply

Anonymous

People often get pretty far ashore from simply

Damkerng T.

I couldn't agree more.

Anonymous

22:04

There is one little problem there.

Anonymous

Human language being fuzzy as it is . . .

Anonymous

Sometimes people can't agree on the observations :-/

Anonymous

And then how can you describe it?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I think the observations can be fishy sometimes.

Anonymous

"Well, some people think system A, but some people think system B, and some people reject this construction entirely"

Damkerng T.

22:05

Like people will see what they want to see.

Anonymous

They do.

Anonymous

Especially when you use grammaticality judgments, and when you spend enough time staring at suspect sentences, what you wouldn't accept starts to become what you would accept

Anonymous

Or vice versa.

Anonymous

I know I've been able to convince myself in the past that some pretty strange things were acceptable. :-)

Damkerng T.

A-ha. I think that happened to me sometimes.

Anonymous

22:06

It generally happens to me--the longer I stare at something, the more my brain accepts it.

Damkerng T.

For me, it's more like, the more I stare at something, the more I'm unsure about it.

Good ideas usually come to find me when I was thinking about something else. :-)

Sometimes I wonder how Charles Darwin would feel if he live in our era.

Anonymous

Oh, that happens to me, too.

Anonymous

Well, I think it happens to everyone.

Anonymous

(Maybe related to semantic satiation?)

Damkerng T.

I think it's quite likely.

Anonymous

22:12

I can't support this answer. "the basic salary" is not idiomatic: it does not sound natural. There's something a little odd about the entire sentence. — CoolHandLouis 7 hours ago

Damkerng T.

I usually think of it as cognitive overload.

Anonymous

I can't figure out what he's talking about.

Damkerng T.

Umm... I think "the basic salary" is rather common.

Anonymous

Sometimes I think people forget that sentences have to be judged in a context, and that when they're presented devoid of context, we have to supply our own.

Anonymous

And when we read a sentence like that, unless we're used to thinking about it, we often don't realize we're supplying our own.

Anonymous

22:13

So here, "the basic salary" might seem odd because there's no identifiable basic salary to refer back to

Anonymous

(I've seen native speakers object to a lot of phrases with the out of context.)

Anonymous

But I'm only speculating. I don't know if the was what he disliked.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think I've seen that too.

Sometimes we have to guess the sentences before and after the OP's quotes.

Anonymous

It always confuses me, because I'm used to trying to imagine a set of possible contexts for a sentence.

Anonymous

Right, you have to.

Anonymous

22:16

I think sometimes the set of possible contexts is so wide that a sentence seems natural, and other times an utterance demands a very specific context, and it can be hard to see that...

Anonymous

Actually, I see the same thing when I discuss Japanese with native speakers.

Anonymous

If I give a sentence that requires a rather unusual context, they're often unhappy with it :-)

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Something I don't like about ESL teaching is the teachers seem to prefer their students being locked up within a canned language.

"Don't think of anything unusual!" the teacher said.

Anonymous

Although I don't consider myself particularly adept at wordplay, I do like to consider the English language a toy.

Anonymous

It's there to be played with, so why not try? :-)

Anonymous

22:19

I'm not a master with paints, either, but that doesn't stop me from ruining a canvas or two :-)

Anonymous

It's all in good fun.

Damkerng T.

Ah, my motto: "Everyone can draw!"

Anonymous

I think that when you're learning a language, even if you're like me, and you're not especially skilled with words, you have to feel free to do what you want. You can't be timid, you can't be afraid, you can't live in a little box.

Damkerng T.

Actually, you can substitute that "draw" with anything you'd like. :-)

Anonymous

You have to do what you want with words.

Damkerng T.

22:20

Totally agree.

Anonymous

1

Q: I would like that you will reconsider the basic salary

I would like that you will reconsider the basic salary. Is this sentence correct?

grammaticality tense verb modal-verbs

Anonymous

Proofreading?

Damkerng T.

Probably not.

It's just one sentence, anyway.

And a very short one at that.

Anonymous

0

A: Is it ok to say "good morning" at anytime?

Agree with most of the part of Trish's answer. A little yet good information. Greet anyone Good Morning when you seem them first time for that day! This could be little beyond noon as well! Nevertheless, avoid this when it is obvious to say Good evening.

Anonymous

Hmm...

Anonymous

22:23

Do people do that?

Anonymous

I mean, I say "good morning" whenever.

Anonymous

But I'm not people. I'm snail transportation.

Damkerng T.

I've never heard of "Good morning" being used like that before.

Anonymous

I was actually given the same advice in Japanese, but then people seem to think it's weird if you do it :-)

Anonymous

That's probably why it caught my interest.

Damkerng T.

22:25

I think we can blame it on the Internet. :-)

It's morning here, but it's way beyond evening there.

Anonymous

Hmm...

Damkerng T.

Or people might need to work around the clock.

Anonymous

What time is it here?

Anonymous

Ah, 14:24!

Damkerng T.

Exactly, whose time!

Anonymous

22:26

What time is it there?

Damkerng T.

It's 05:25.

Anonymous

Does Thailand span only one time zone?

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Anonymous

I don't honestly know when evening begins.

Anonymous

If I had to guess, I'd say around 5, but 6 to be safe.

Damkerng T.

22:26

It seems like nobody could say for sure.

Anonymous

Six feels kind of eveningish.

Anonymous

What do you say? Seven's evening for sure, right?

Damkerng T.

Does "evening" need to be dark?

Anonymous

Either that, or maybe the sky's threatening to get dark soon.

Damkerng T.

I remember that I was surprised that it's not dark in Frankfurt at all even when it's 9pm there.

Anonymous

22:28

I think the word is related to the sun setting, to night. As in eve.

Anonymous

Yikes!

Anonymous

When I moved to California, I noticed that the summer days were longer than back in Illinois.

Anonymous

I'm not sure if it's true, but I did nonetheless notice it.

Anonymous

I think I remember looking it up at one point and being surprised how small the difference actually was :-)

Damkerng T.

^^

I also notice that the sunset's time is getter more late than last month.

And it's not as cold anymore.

Now I'm rather happy with the temp.

But soon it will become hotter and it won't be as comfy as it's now.

Anonymous

22:31

Ah, yes. I can definitely notice the in-year changes.

Anonymous

I wish it would rain more.

Damkerng T.

Raining is good, but not too much. :-)

How are you now? Have you got a fever?

Anonymous

I'm mostly fine.

Anonymous

I'm not sure I'm actually getting sick yet.

Anonymous

I have a sore throat, and I sneezed a few times and such.

Damkerng T.

22:34

I remember that sometimes a few vitamin C tablets help.

Anonymous

Ah, that's a common folk remedy.

Damkerng T.

Hehe. But it seems to really work for me, sometimes.

Anonymous

I shouldn't take excess vitamin C because for me in particular, due to a medical condition, it could harm me

Anonymous

But for most people, excess vitamin C is harmless, though not helpful

Damkerng T.

Oh! Then don't.

Anonymous

22:35

But many people believe it's helpful.

Damkerng T.

It could be placebo in my case, but if it works it works. :D

I learned a few trick to avoid getting a fever in the last few hours.

I think Vitamin C, chicken soup, hot tea, and sweating a lot, help.

Anonymous

I actually usually actively avoid discussing medication that works mainly via the placebo effect, in case people stop believing and stop being helped

Anonymous

Hey, that was three -ly adverbs in a row.

Damkerng T.

Hah! Indeed.

Anonymous

I do get some vitamin C in my diet, just not a huge amount.

Anonymous

22:42

Those peppers I eat? They've got a fair amount of vitamin C. :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I've heard that peppers have many good effects.

Anonymous

So I won't get scurvy, don't worry.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that word (which is new to me) is vitamin C specific!

Anonymous

It is!

Anonymous

What is scurvy in Thai?

Damkerng T.

22:44

The one that is related to vitamin C?

Anonymous

Oh, on that note, this is a fascinating essay: idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm

Damkerng T.

We have this th.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

[lak-ka-pid-lak-ka-perd]

Literal translation: stealing-closed-stealing-open

Whatever that means. :D

Anonymous

Wow. That's opaque to me

Damkerng T.

The same to me. :D

It's something we shouldn't translate. :-)

I guess that you can deduce Thai's closed and open from my literal translation.

Anonymous

Why does Google transliterate it as lakpid lakpeid, I wonder?

Anonymous

22:50

Pid and peid (or perd)!

Anonymous

Hmmph.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

@SpYk3HH Meta discussion belongs on meta. Feel free to start a meta thread if you really want to discuss the chicken-and-egg problem faced by language learners and how it applies to the answers on this site. — snailplane 29 secs ago

Anonymous

It's true that there is a chicken-and-egg problem, though.

Anonymous

Learners have to learn quite a bit before they can use ELL, I think.

Damkerng T.

22:54

Yes.

A true beginner wouldn't have a chance on ELL.

That gave me some idea...

What if I duplicate our ELL site in Thai language?

Anonymous

Hehe!

Damkerng T.

Credits go to original posters, of course. :D

Anonymous

What Q&A sites are popular in Thai right now?

Damkerng T.

Perhaps too many.

Anonymous

Oh, you meant duplicate as in . . . the content?

Damkerng T.

22:57

Yes.

Anonymous

That sounds like a massive undertaking.

Damkerng T.

I think I could hire someone for the kick-off.

Anonymous

You could be selective. Not all the content on ELL is especially helpful.

Damkerng T.

nods That's true too! :D

Anonymous

It's all CC licensed

Damkerng T.

22:59

Which means I can actually do it, if I really want to.

Anonymous

That thing about being selective would be true of every SE site I've used, though.

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