English Language Learners

Anonymous

02:43

@DamkerngT. Oh, hey. So I am!

Anonymous

06:00

Yay! I hit 10k. Now I'm officially reputable!

Damkerng T.

07:17

@snailplane Congratulations!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Thank you! 10,000 Internet Points, all mine, all mine!

Anonymous

I could buy dozens of bounties.

Anonymous

Or almost ten thousand downvotes.

Damkerng T.

Haha

I can see that you're in a good mood.

Really happy for you.

(^^)/

(I miss those cute Japanese emoticons I can use on my iPad.)

Anonymous

08:01

Oh! Yeah, you can use chat from your iPhone and enter those thingies in.

Anonymous

Only problem is, you can't use the reply feature from a phone. :-(

Anonymous

Oh my, entasked with?

Damkerng T.

@snailplane my iPad is still at iOS 5, and the browser is bad enough that I can't use it to browse any of SE sites. Don't know why.

@snailplane The question is the first time I saw the word entasked with really used.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I've never seen the word before. Nonetheless, I wrote an answer.

Anonymous

I am, at least, familiar with both en- and task :-)

Damkerng T.

08:10

^^

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I have an iPhone 5, and it came with iOS 6. iOS 7 was in almost every way a downgrade

Anonymous

It did have one interesting feature, or misfeature depending on your perspective

Anonymous

It seems that Apple's contracts with Shogakukan to provide their Japanese dictionaries with iOS and Mac OS X expired, and they instead made a deal with Sanseido.

Anonymous

So Daijisen disappeared from my phone, but Daijirin appeared in its place.

Anonymous

As it happens, I think Daijirin is the superior dictionary, so I'm pleased with the change. :-)

Damkerng T.

08:16

That seems to be a good news.

Sometimes, I don't get the way our credit card providers work.

Maybe I have too many credit cards.

So I don't actually use some of them... and as a consequence, they charged me the yearly fee.

And everyone knows that you can cancel that yearly fee by making a call.

Which is quite strange imo... why do we need to make a call, when everyone will make that call anyway?

I just made such a call. That saved me 26 bucks.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hooray!

Anonymous

Here, credit cards are often basically free if you pay them off every month.

Anonymous

But they're a trap for people who don't.

Damkerng T.

They're clever, right?

Those credit cards.

Anonymous

1

Q: Under what circumstances does a proper noun (of a person) take the definite article 'the'?

I wonder whether using the article 'the' is proper putting before a proper noun. I have heard this from many especially when they react with utter surprise. For instance, "Hey, do you know, while coming back from Bangkok to Mumbai whom did I meet in flight?" "Nope, enlighten me!" "Bill...

Damkerng T.

08:24

(Perhaps, that why they call their cards smart cards.)

Anonymous

This is an interesting question. I wrote a related answer a while back, where I claimed that a proper noun can be converted into a common noun

Damkerng T.

I think I've seen such a question before too.

And I think I must have involved in some answers, but not quite sure which question. :-)

Anonymous

For example, if you were dating <insert name here>, and over time he grew to be a very different man, you might say "You're not the <insert name here> I used to know and love!" At least, if you lived in a soap opera. And were dating a man.

Anonymous

On the other hand, if it happened much faster, you might instead say "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

Anonymous

Oh, no!!

Anonymous

08:27

My ELL rep is one point higher than my JL (formerly JL&U) rep.

Damkerng T.

Oh, no!!

Anonymous

I want Japanese to be at the top of the list. :-)

Damkerng T.

I can downvote your answer, if you'd like. :-)

Anonymous

Oh, no!

Damkerng T.

That's what I guessed. ^^

Anonymous

08:28

Haha

Anonymous

I'm going to go make some herbal tea. Which is to say, some tea that doesn't have caffeine, since it's now after midnight, and I'm going to pretend that I want to sleep later.

Anonymous

Unfortunately, I had trouble sleeping again last night (meaning approximately 24 hours ago) because I foolishly partook in a small amount of milkshake, and my body doesn't know how to digest lactose.

Damkerng T.

I wish you will feel drowsy and have a nice sleep soon.

Anonymous

Sure! That'll happen. In theory. In practice, I'll be up for a while yet, since my sleep cycle has been shifted forward, and I'll probably just have to stay up until a normal hour the following evening to fix it.

Anonymous

This whole holiday ... thing, whatever it is, I've been sleeping a bit funny.

Anonymous

08:31

I'll be right back

Damkerng T.

I'll be hanging out around here.

Just call my name if you need me, or a friend to chat with. :-)

Anonymous

My tea is steeping!

Anonymous

Is it common for people in Thailand to drink cow's milk?

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Of course!

Is there any other kind of milk for adults?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes! Probably.

Damkerng T.

08:37

Hmm... I think only a very small number of us might prefer goat's milk.

Anonymous

Here in the US, we call some things milk which aren't milk at all. Milk substitutes, really.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Hah, synthetic milk, you mean.

Anonymous

Most popular is "soy milk", though I've always been interested in "coconut milk"

Anonymous

Well, the concept of milking a soy plant is funny to me.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. I see.

Actually, soy milk is quite popular.

Anonymous

08:39

And I'm from Illinois, the Soy Capital of the US. Or so I hear

Damkerng T.

Somehow I've never thought about soy milk as milk before.

Anonymous

I've certainly driven through soy fields (on the way back and forth between UIUC and Chicagoland)

Damkerng T.

But I guess that you'd probably not want to drink "coconut milk"

Anonymous

Well, I think it isn't technically milk, but it's certainly called milk fairly often in English.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Must be quite a sight!

Anonymous

08:39

Oh wait. I misremembered.

Anonymous

Coconut milk doesn't sound tasty.

Damkerng T.

Yep

Anonymous

The one I wanted to try was "almond milk", because almonds.

Damkerng T.

Ah, almond milk, hmm... I'm not sure what it will taste like.

Anonymous

Hopefully almonds. :-)

Anonymous

08:40

I just ate some almond pilaf.

Damkerng T.

^^

Anonymous

That might be why I've got almonds on the mind!

Damkerng T.

I've heard that chamomile helps sleeping too.

(Looking up Pilaf...)

Ah, I see, pilaf is tasty, but that would depend on the sauce.

(And that reminds me of the word "awesomesauce" I read from the page discussed about totes cray-cray adorbs.)

Anonymous

Argh. Totes cray-cray adorbs.

Anonymous

Adorbs is cute enough, though I don't say it myself.

Anonymous

08:44

Words like totes and adorbs seem very Californian to me, though they might not actually be.

Anonymous

When I moved out here, I encountered a lot of girls who said things like "whatevs" instead of "whatever"

Anonymous

(Girls typically lead the way in language change)

Damkerng T.

I think I've read it from somewhere that girls have a bigger verbal brain than boys.

Anonymous

I've heard a lot of different people say cray or cray-cray now.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I view that claim with kneejerk skepticism

Damkerng T.

08:46

I got another nice word.

(Never know that kneejerk can be used with skepticism.)

You mentioned UIUC. Perhaps you've studied there?

Anonymous

It's true that females tend to outperform males on tests of verbal skills, but is there a biological basis for that? I don't know that it's clear that there is, although people have done a lot of research to try to demonstrate one (or the lack of one)

Anonymous

No, though my brothers did.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, consider kneejerk associated with reaction.

Anonymous

As in when a doctor tests your reflexes by tapping you below the kneecap with a small mallet, and you automatically respond by jerking your leg forward at the knee

Anonymous

A kneejerk reaction, then, is one that is fully automatic in you--it's triggered without you taking the time to think about it

Damkerng T.

08:48

Ah, that provides more depth of the phrase.

Anonymous

And so, kneejerk skepticism isn't exactly reasoned skepticism. It doesn't mean that I've very carefully analyzed the evidence and decided that it's false.

Anonymous

It means that, upon seeing the phrase, I instinctively tend toward skepticism

Anonymous

I want to hear or read something more convincing before I accept the claim.

Anonymous

The problem is, I've heard so many bogus claims about the brain . . .

Damkerng T.

I don't know how true such claims are, and yes there are many armchair theories on the web.

Anonymous

08:50

And science news reporting is so bad

Anonymous

That even when they're reporting a valid study, they rarely manage to convey something true

Anonymous

(And of course, much research turns out to be wrong)

Anonymous

So, kneejerk skepticism.

Damkerng T.

I think MRI and fMRI make these studies popular.

Anonymous

Oh, yeah. Well, you can do a lot of really interesting research on the brain.

Anonymous

08:51

And we're just now, in the last 15 years, discovering some very basic things about it

Anonymous

I mean, in English, gray matter is a figurative term for brainpower.

Anonymous

We talk about people being left-brained and right-brained

Anonymous

Most things we say about the brain in popular language don't make any sense at all from a biological perspective.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Sometimes I have quite a similar feeling, when reading what they concluded.

I think we need both sides of the brain.

Anonymous

Yes. We do

Anonymous

08:54

Everyone who hasn't suffered severe brain damage uses both sides of their brain.

Damkerng T.

If I understand those diagrams correctly, our verbal control (Broca area and another area I can't recall the name) seems to locate at about the center of the brain.

Neither left nor right.

Anonymous

Wernicke's

Damkerng T.

@snailplane That sounds about right. Must be it.

Anonymous

0

Q: Is this a grammatical error?

Professional interests continue to expand, Virgo, and you're managing to keep very busy. Your income is rising, and you could be achieving a certain prominence in your field. Nonetheless, you could be looking for new opportunities. The field you're in now may not be one that you want to continue ...

grammar

Anonymous

What do you think of this question?

Anonymous

09:00

Oh, hey! I hit 200 rep on ELL today! :-)

Damkerng T.

I think I might be better off not answering this question. ;-)

But I see no problem with the use of the present tense in that continue.

Gigili

Hellow

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Congratulations!

@Gigili Howdy!

Anonymous

Hiya!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, well, me either. I wonder if there's a rule being taught that suggests that it's in error

Damkerng T.

09:03

I think that there is no explicit rule.

But I think it's highly related to the other question as, while, when.

Anonymous

Oh?

Gigili

@snailplane What a complicated sentence, I failed to parse the first time I read it

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, sorry. Let me be explicit: "Oh? How is it related?"

Damkerng T.

I learned from this site (ELL) that I have to provide background reference (mentally) and then my chance to use the right tense will go up.

My internet connection becomes weird again. It fooled me to click retry. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh! That happens to me sometimes.

Damkerng T.

09:06

@snailplane I think that continue provide the background scenario, so both parties can understand the background situation viewed by the speaker.

Gigili

Oh, I got it

The second that could be omitted

Anonymous

@Gigili Oh, sorry. Yes. :-)

Damkerng T.

@Gigili Argh. I'm confused. Which that, please?

Gigili

Here:

6 mins ago, by snailplane

@DamkerngT. Oh, well, me either. I wonder if there's a rule being taught that suggests that it's in error

Anonymous

For a while, I was trying to speak only clear, standard English on ELL chat. But chatting with Damkerng, it feels more fun to type more or less however I'd speak

Damkerng T.

09:09

@Gigili Ah, I see now. Thanks.

Gigili

@DamkerngT. Any time!

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I always try to type the way I talk.

Sometimes, my fingers can't catch up.

Well, actually, most of the time.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, the way I talk might be a tad opaque to less accomplished learners than yourself. I talk funny.

Damkerng T.

Which is weird, because earlier, I could write faster than I could speak.

@snailplane Oh, I take that as a compliment. Thank you!

Anonymous

In English, it's normal to be able to speak faster than you talk. Even very fast typists can't keep up with their own speech unless they talk very slowly or pause often.

Anonymous

09:12

(People generally can't type 200wpm, and people sometimes talk considerably faster than that.)

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Yes. That's true. So true!

Gigili

Now now @snailplane, that's completely unparsable!

Anonymous

@Gigili Well, not completely. I can parse it! ;-)

Damkerng T.

@Gigili That parses fine to me.

Gigili

But, how you speak faster than you talk?

Anonymous

09:13

Type, not talk.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I mentally substituted talk with type.

Gigili

1-0

Damkerng T.

And, frankly, I know that I made lots of typo and grammar mistakes. Hehe. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. When you read Gigili's line or mine?

Gigili

SP vs. G

Damkerng T.

09:15

@snailplane Yours, since the first time I read yours.

Anonymous

Oh, we're having a parse-off, are we?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But that doesn't make sense. It makes sense the way it's written

Damkerng T.

Hmm... That makes me wonder how fast we can type.

Perhaps 60 wpm.

Anonymous

Who's we, and in what language?

Damkerng T.

Let's take us, in English, for example.

Anonymous

09:17

Well, if you're talking about me

Anonymous

And you only type 60 wpm

Damkerng T.

I think I can't type 60 wpm nowadays, more like 30-40 wpm.

Anonymous

Then I'm afraid I type considerably faster than you :-)

Damkerng T.

That's what I've guessed.

Anonymous

I wonder how typing speed is measured in languages like Chinese or Japanese. Characters per second?

Gigili

09:18

So, tell us how fast you type?

Anonymous

Hmm.

Anonymous

I think I've already done that :-)

Anonymous

I type fast enough that I get the annoying "You can try this again in 1 second" errors pretty often.

2

Gigili

How many languages do you speak? Other than English and Japanese

Anonymous

French.

Damkerng T.

09:19

I love the way French talk.

Anonymous

Of course, every language I speak, I do so relatively poorly.

Gigili

Impressive!

Anonymous

So I'm not sure any besides English really count ;-)

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I think I've seen Japaneses type their things in movies or TV dramas.

But I don't know how they actually do it.

But it seems fast enough.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, there's typing on a phone, and typing on a computer.

Anonymous

09:20

Typing Japanese is more complicated than English

Gigili

@snailplane He said humbly ;)

Anonymous

@Gigili Who's he?

Anonymous

Not I, said the snail!

Gigili

You're a girl?

Anonymous

Well, I'm a grown woman. But yes

Gigili

09:22

A revealed secret!

Anonymous

Well, it wasn't very secret.

Damkerng T.

And what about you Gigili?

Anonymous

Whether in the present continuous or in the present tense, it means the same thing here? — birdman1234 29 secs ago

Damkerng T.

Your fingers look like those of a lady.

Gigili

Well, I'm a grown woman too

@snailplane It was, at least to me

Damkerng T.

09:23

Ah, that leaves me the only grown man in this chat room at the moment.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Leaves rather than left

Damkerng T.

Leaves sounds better than left indeed.

Anonymous

Leaves is a nice word. So is leaf

Gigili

@snailplane Why did you choose Japanese?

Anonymous

@Gigili I don't know. It was sixteen years ago, I was depressed, and I wanted something to take my mind off the things going on in my life

Gigili

09:25

I'd like to start learning a language, but I can't decide which one

Anonymous

And Japanese is fun.

Anonymous

What are your native languages?

Damkerng T.

@Gigili You can try Thai.

I can offer some help. :-)

Gigili

@snailplane Oh, it is indeed fun, but I prefer it being useful as well

Anonymous

I suggest learning a language that you can use every day

Gigili

09:26

@DamkerngT. Oh, thank you

Anonymous

If you don't use it every day, you won't ever really get good at it.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane That's quite true.

Anonymous

And what language you can use every day depends very much on you

Gigili

@snailplane Well, I can speak English and German quite fluently.

I tried to learn Latin a few weeks ago, but lost motivation

Anonymous

Also, languages that have similarities with your native tongues will take a lower time investment, overall

Anonymous

09:27

Motivation is everything, of course :-)

Anonymous

And you have to find your own. I can't give it to you

Damkerng T.

Em1 left this comment for me: Just wonder, if you have no intention to answer the question and you indeed do not answer the question, why don't you make it at least cw?

Gigili

Yeah, I think it's hard to find a place where they speak Latin

Damkerng T.

And, I agree with him.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It seems a fair point.

Damkerng T.

09:28

How can I make my answer a CW?

Anonymous

@Gigili Well, there are other reasons to study Latin than to speak it.

Gigili

What other reasons?

Anonymous

Click edit, check the "community wiki" box

Gigili

@snailplane No? Pliz!

Anonymous

@Gigili Studying the classics. Learning where the traditional grammar comes from. Application to other languages via etymology, etc.

Anonymous

09:29

Because it's interesting.

Damkerng T.

Ah... I think I can do that next time. Can I edit my already posted answer to a CW?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes.

Gigili

@DamkerngT. Yes, do what she said

Anonymous

@Gigili Pl0x or no, alas, I cannot.

Gigili

sad panda smiley

Anonymous

09:30

My favorite variant on pliz is pliss.

Anonymous

I used to have a roommate who got eaten alive by the World of Warcraft who'd go around saying "heal pliss"

Gigili

Actually I dislike pliz and I wasn't aware of any variants

Anonymous

Eventually they made it out the other end, and they're now happily employed.

Anonymous

@Gigili It amuses me.

Anonymous

I normally never say it myself, but I amused myself by putting it in the same sentence as "alas"

Gigili

09:32

@snailplane For a second, I thought your roommate got eaten for real!

Anonymous

Oh! No. Noncorporeal entities have only figurative fangs.

Anonymous

This is an interesting question. I linked to it earlier, too, but I don't think Gigili was present at the time:

Anonymous

1

Q: Under what circumstances does a proper noun (of a person) take the definite article 'the'?

I wonder whether using the article 'the' is proper putting before a proper noun. I have heard this from many especially when they react with utter surprise. For instance, "Hey, do you know, while coming back from Bangkok to Mumbai whom did I meet in flight?" "Nope, enlighten me!" "Bill...

articles definite-article

Gigili

Thanks

Anonymous

My basic answer is that treating a name as a countable common noun (that can therefore take an article such as an or the) treats the name as a set of possible entities with that name. This allows you to specify which of that set you're talking about.

Damkerng T.

09:36

@snailplane I think the meaning would be the same. But somehow I think the present tense is more natural. Using the present continuous to talk about the background before getting to the real stuff sounds comical.

Anonymous

Hence "You're not the Bob I used to know!" (comparison between the past Bob and the present Bob)

Anonymous

In cases like that, dividing one person into separate eras or personalities--

Gigili

Why I used to to know? and not simply I know?

Anonymous

As in "this painting of a young Rembrandt"

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I miss the "snailboat" you once used to be. :-)

Anonymous

09:38

'Cause, yusta.

Anonymous

Or a screaming Dudley

Gigili

Yeah, that's reasonable.

Anonymous

@Gigili Because the statement creates a contrast between the Bob I know now (the present Bob) and the Bob I used to know (the past Bob), implying that Bob has changed and is no longer the same person.

Anonymous

Thus there is a set of Bobs, and the articles allow you to talk about particular Bobs.

Anonymous

Divided among time, among personality--or among a real (non-figurative) set of people with that name

Anonymous

09:40

The Bill Gates? Yes, not some other Bill Gates [ = another person with the exact same name]

Anonymous

I should write up an answer, but I'm feeling lazy. Chat is so much easier :-)

Gigili

I know that.

But it could be rephrased

The Bob I used to know

The Bob I know

Anonymous

@Gigili "You're not the Bob I know!" means something different.

Gigili

The Bob I got to know

@snailplane Really?

thinks

Anonymous

You can say that too, but it's not rephrasing "You're not the Bob I used to know!"

Gigili

09:42

I mean, in different ways that conveys the meaning

Or You're not the Bob I've always known, even

Damkerng T.

If you feel that Bob has been changed (into someone you feel you don't know him anymore), I think the Bob I used to know is the best way to say it. (I can't think of any better shorter phrase for that.)

@Gigili Or that.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. "I don't even know you anymore!"

Damkerng T.

@snailplane This reminds me of one line from Cabin in the Woods...

It was Are you even listening to me?

It sounds really ironic, especially that even part

Gigili

14

Q: "anymore" vs. "any more"

any more requests anymore requests Are these two the same? It seems that "any more requests" is grammatically correct while "anymore requests" is not. Am I right? Why are they different?

grammar phrases

Damkerng T.

I'm sure I made this anymore vs. any more mistake from time to time.

Anonymous

09:46

@DamkerngT. Yes, absent any further context I'd take the illocutionary force as roughly "You aren't listening to me. I'm saying something important, but you're failing to understand it or simply not paying attention."

Anonymous

Did someone make a mistake re: anymore vs any more?

Damkerng T.

I think not, in the last few minutes.

Anonymous

Oh, I see

Anonymous

There's another similar one: everyday vs every day

Gigili

No, I just wondered for a moment whether it should be I don't even know you anymore or any more.

And shared the link

Anonymous

09:48

Ah, thank you

Gigili

Don't mention it

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Each time I edit a message, you get beeped anew, right?

Anonymous

I've long since disabled beeps on my end, so I don't hear them.

Damkerng T.

Oh yes. And I thought that my internet connection acted weird again. Bleeping way too long after the message has been posted.

Anonymous

Well, my problem is, I write sentences that don't make sense, so I go back and edit them again and again until they resemble something comprehensible

Anonymous

09:50

I'm addicted to editing.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Me too!

@snailplane Me "too"!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oops, you made a mistake there. You'd better fix it. EDIT: Oh good, you've fixed it!

Anonymous

Reach for the edit button!

Damkerng T.

:)

I've heard the line ditto in Ghost, and I'm not sure if it can substitute me too in every occasion. <-- Edited :)

Anonymous

The worst part is, over on Japanese Language (formerly & Usage) I can edit comments without any time limit.

Anonymous

09:52

So when I come over and visit ELL, I'll leave a comment, and then five minutes later . . .

Anonymous

"Hmm, I should edit that.　　　. . . hey, where'd the edit link go?"

Damkerng T.

@snailplane That happened to me way too often.

What do you call someone who love posting comments? A commentator?

Anonymous

I decided my message needed a bunch of space in it just now.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Is that true?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Nothing comes to mind, apart from nonce-words like comment-phile

Anonymous

09:54

@DamkerngT. It's true for me. That's where I'm a moderator.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see. I see.

Anonymous

That's why my name's all shiny and blue in chat.

Anonymous

The most important part of being a moderator is being able to edit your old messages on chat.

Damkerng T.

^^

0

Q: Usage of 'it' in the sentence

What does it refer to in the sentence: It is dark outside?

meaning usage

Could be transferred to ELL.

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

09:57

I can't believe no one there called it Weather it.

Anonymous

It's the prototypical Weather it!

Anonymous

Well, almost. The prototypical Weather it would be "It's raining", I suppose.

Damkerng T.

I've never really thought about this it.

Because it is, well, it.

Anonymous

Basically, it's just there because English clauses require subjects.

Damkerng T.

And I think the reason why I've no problem understanding this it may be a result of our translation.

Anonymous

09:59

What is your translation?

Damkerng T.

Come to think of it, I think we (Thais) don't have this construction 100 years ago.

Transcript for