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09:54
@DamkerngT. Hi
@IceGirl Oh, Hello
Can you say me what does it mean?^^
@IceGirl And what is "it"? ^^
Please do not share personal contact information (such as your email address) in this chat room. Sharing personal information with strangers can be dangerous. If you feel pressured to share this information, please flag the message so a moderator can intervene on your behalf. If the problem persists, feel free to flag any of your ELL posts and explain the issue. An ELL mod will contact you and handle the problem.
Oh, OK
Please do not share personal contact information (such as your email address) in this chat room. ~ Don't share your email, or reveal who you really are.
(I will use this sign (~) as means.)
If you feel pressured to share this information, please flag the message so a moderator can intervene on your behalf. ~ If someone insist, and you don't want to give him or her your information...
10:02
Ok
you can flag his or her message... (besides edit and delete there is an option for flag for moderator)
i have question
You know what does moderator mean?
@IceGirl Please ask
(Moderator means someone who takes care things to go properly in a website, or a forum, or a chat room.)
10:04
had a good head for figures?
I don't understand "had a good head for figures".
Is it from an essay?
Maybe the complete sentence helps.
(Usually, have a good head means good at)
(figures usually means numbers)
(So "had a good head for figures" possibly means being good at math)
ok
thank you
You're welcome! :-)
10:36
@DamkerngT. Do you know Civil War?
what does it mean?
10:48
@IceGirl In general, a Civil War means a war of a group of civilians against another group of civilians.
When we use the word civil in Civil War, it emphasizes the fact that people in the same country turn against others within the same country.
A civil war is a war between organized groups within the same state or republic, or, less commonly, between two countries created from a formerly united state. The aim of one side may be to take control of the country or a region, to achieve independence for a region, or to change government policies. The term is a calque of the Latin bellum civile which was used to refer to the various civil wars of the Roman Republic in the 1st century BC. A civil war is a high-intensity conflict, often involving regular armed forces, that is sustained, organized and large-scale. Civil wars may res...
I think the American Civil War is one of the best known civil wars.
@snailplane One of the questions yesterday (Which'th) brought me to a great site that teaches Thai as a foreign language, thailanguagewiki.com.
It's a very eye-opening experience. Seeing how my own language is perceived through the eyes of foreigners.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Oh, that's interesting
Yes. :)
I just started reading the first chapter on Thai's grammar.
Anonymous
As a learner of Japanese, I've had to familiarize myself with the way Japanese is taught to foreigners and the way it's taught to native speakers
Anonymous
And of course, the myriad ways it's treated in linguistics, different yet
Yes, I can immediately tell that they teach things that most native speakers normally do not say. :)
Anonymous
11:01
Ah, well, that's true of textbook Japanese, and true of textbook English
Anonymous
That's probably why the phrasal template textbook <LanguageName> exists, actually :-)
Then again, it might be better to keep things simple.
Anonymous
But I was referring to the way grammar is analyzed
Anonymous
Think about English, how you have first, second, and third conditional
Anonymous
Plus sometimes a zeroth conditional :-)
11:02
So true!
Anonymous
Well, I don't know if you have numbered conditionals. I certainly don't.
I don't, not until recently. :)
Anonymous
That's the sort of thing you can talk about to a native speaker--even one reasonably educated about grammar--and be met with a blank stare
When I started study English grammar a bit more seriously.
@snailplane :-)
Anonymous
Well, the numbered conditionals aren't used by much of any grammars targeted toward native speakers
Anonymous
11:04
It's an example of a (minor? major?) schism between ESL grammar and, well, non-ESL grammar.
Sometimes, I wonder how they teach grammar to native speakers. Must be very different.
Anonymous
I imagine that sort of difference exists for other languages
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Native speakers of English?
Anonymous
Hmm.
Anonymous
11:05
Well, most native speakers of English have no real grammar instruction.
Hah!
I think you must have been taught how to analyze sentences, and things like that.
Anonymous
Nope.
Anonymous
I mean, you can study linguistics in college.
Hmm...
Anonymous
11:06
But in K-12, English class consists mainly of reading and writing
Anonymous
And so do many college English classes.
Anonymous
Most native speakers can't tell you what a noun is.
Anonymous
("A person, place, or thing!")
That's quite a surprise to me.
Anonymous
Or what a verb is.
Anonymous
11:07
("A doing word!")
Anonymous
We have small bits of "grammar" picked up over the years
Anonymous
Mostly it comes in the form of prescriptive rules given here or there
Anonymous
We're taught that we must say "X and I", not "me and X"
Anonymous
Some people are taught that they must not end a sentence with a preposition
11:08
It sounds like grammar is taught as a kind of an aside.
Anonymous
Yeah. It's something that happens--you get stuff marked in red on papers you turn in
Anonymous
By the way, there's a rude response to the preposition rule. Have you ever heard it?
Hmm... I'm not sure.
I might have heard it, but I'm sure I can't remember it.
Anonymous
Read the joke marked (3) here alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxprepos.html
11:10
LOL
Yes, I think that has crossed my eyes before, but I didn't remember. :)
Definitely an answer by a smarta**. :)
"Pronoun immediately after its antecedent" (from thailanguagewiki)
I think English might have no such thing, or maybe it has?
"Anna she likes cakes very much."
Anonymous
There are a lot of people using SE chat with very public email addresses.
Anonymous
I suppose I don't see what's wrong with that.
I guess most people have more than one emails nowadays.
But I think personal information is not only about email.
In Thailand, there are lots of cases involving minors every year.
And scams are very popular.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Oh, sure. I'm not encouraging everyone to post all their personally identifying information online, and particularly not minors
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. That's not quite right.
Anonymous
11:17
"Anna, she likes cakes very much."
Anonymous
This is an example of left dislocation
Anonymous
It's related to the canonical construction "Anna likes cake very much."
Anonymous
Anna is pulled out of the clause and moved to the left ("left dislocation"), before the clause itself
@snailplane That would be the way Thai talk. When I glanced through Thai grammar on that site, I think this must be something non-existing in English.
Anonymous
This movement leaves behind a pronoun, she
Anonymous
11:20
Left dislocation is a type of information packaging, and it indicates one of several things
Anonymous
One possibility is that Anna is new information
Anonymous
Another is that Anna is contrastive
@snailplane I'm not sure about what this contrastive means.
Anonymous
I'll give an example from a paper.
Anonymous
> So I see my youngest brother a lot too. Actually, all my brothers are pretty close by. My oldest brother is a chef, like, downtown and my middle brother lives in Jersey. My youngest brother, he’s a freshman at Newman.
11:23
(what is contrasted to what?)
Anonymous
The topic is the speaker's brothers
Anonymous
The oldest brother is briefly discussed
Anonymous
Then the discussion changes to "my youngest brother", which is left dislocated to show the contrast
@snailplane Ah, I see. That's a good example. Thanks.
Written that way (contrastive), we don't need but or unlike, etc.
Anonymous
It's conversational grammar. You wouldn't use it in an essay or a formal paper
Anonymous
11:27
By the way, I hit 10,000 reputation on Japanese Language today :-)
@snailplane Wow! Congratulations!
I think you are #1 in hats too.
I was #2. :)
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Well, hats are no more.
Anonymous
We're all hatless now.
(sobbing)
Anonymous
(As an aside, "we're all <something> now" is a phrasal template.)
Anonymous
11:30
Sigh. Thai phonology.
Anonymous
I'm always intimidated by languages with phonemic distinctions English lacks.
Anonymous
Japanese is easy in a sense because it's phonologically impoverished ;-) Although it doesn't have the same set of sounds English does.
In English, you can have a long sequence of consonants.
In Thai, you can have a long sequence of vowels. :)
Anonymous
I'd have to learn the sounds of Thai to start learning.
Anonymous
11:31
@DamkerngT. In Japanese, the basic sequences is CV, with a couple exceptions
I believe that some Thai vowels can be very challenging.
Anonymous
CV or just V.
@snailplane Talking about Japanese, I think you know [senpai] or [sempai].
I can't think of an English word for that.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. You'll notice something similar in English. Add in- to possible, you get impossible.
my senior is close, but not quite.
Anonymous
11:32
That's a type of nasal assimilation.
Anonymous
You don't ever pronounce [np] in Japanese, only [mp]
@snailplane Hah!
Anonymous
But phonemically, it's /Np/, not /mp/
I've noticed before that the sound should be [sempai] but it was subtitled as senpai.
Anonymous
Japanese has five vowels.
Anonymous
11:35
They can be combined with consonants in CV (consonant + vowel) sequences.
Anonymous
So your building blocks are mostly V and CV
Anonymous
But there is a very exceptional sound, /N/
Anonymous
It's a consonant, and it takes up an entire mora (beat, "syllable") itself
Ah, I see (I guess).
Anonymous
So that consonant can appear without a following vowel.
Anonymous
11:37
That's how you can have /seNpai/ = [sempai]
Anonymous
Anyway, I realize that wasn't your question.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. There isn't really an English word for that concept.
Anonymous
I read a translation of a manga series back in high school where they translated senpai to "upperclassman"
Ah, upperclassman is quite close.
(Though I'm not sure if it's in dictionaries.)
Anonymous
11:39
Hmm. I would think it would be
Anonymous
Collins is my dictionary of first resort :-)
Anonymous
Well, the assimilation in impossible is a lexical feature
Anonymous
We have impossible in our mental dictionaries, in other words
11:41
ir- in irresistible too?
Anonymous
So it doesn't matter whether the assimilation is historic or would still happen today, because an unassimilated in- would get blocked by the existence of impossible
Anonymous
So there are better examples to illustrate assimilation in English as it's spoken today.
Anonymous
Yes, ir- too.
Anonymous
And il- in illusion
Anonymous
11:42
I believe those are the four forms of in- in English
Anonymous
Although en- and em- could be considered allomorphs of in-, bringing the total to six
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Japanese has a fairly large hierarchy of well, thingies that go after names.
Oh, Thai too.
Anonymous
They're generally nouns or derived from nouns. Many of them are honorific, so the class is often referred to as "honorifics"
Thai has, the last time I count, 19 words for I. :-)
Anonymous
11:45
However, many of them are distinctly un- honorific, so I'm not sure the name is apt
Anonymous
Japanese has many.
Mostly used to signify honorific (and un-honorifics too).
Anonymous
There's the set of watasi and variants: watakusi, atakusi, watasi, atasi, atai, wasi, wai
Is watasi = [watashi], meaning I?
Anonymous
Then there's boku, ore, ora, onore, ware, yo, ...
11:48
We have a classic Thai novel, about a Japanese solder in WW II falling in love with a young Thai lady.
I think the last words of the solder before he was dead sounds something like "anatawa ..."
(I can't remember the line.)
Anonymous
Yes, /si/ is realized as [ɕi], which is relatively close to English /ʃi/, so in Hepburn's romanization scheme, /si/ is written "shi"
Anonymous
Of course, if you actually say [ʃi], you'll have a pretty noticeable accent. :-)
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Anata is one of the many second-person pronouns.
@snailplane I guess so too.
Anonymous
There are maybe 120 or so personal pronouns in Japanese.
Anonymous
11:50
Many of them are archaic or obsolete
@snailplane Wow, that's a lot.
I think what he was trying to say was "I love you."
Anonymous
Ironically, for a language with a huge number of personal pronouns available, many speakers avoid using them when possible
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. That's typically translated "ai siteru", which leaves the subject and object unsaid/unwritten
Anonymous
For example, you find archaic pronouns like yo, warawa, nanzi, and sessya in fiction, but not much in real life.
“あなたを愛します”
Anonymous
11:53
Sessya is a fun one--it means "I", but its literal meaning is closer to "this clumsy one", and it's used in stereotyped samurai dialogue. :-)
I copied that line from a website.
Anonymous
That's "anata wo ai simasu"
I think it's what he said.
Ah... So it means "I love you"?
Anonymous
It does
Anonymous
The actual word (the noun) meaning love is ai
11:55
ai sounds exactly the same in Mandarin Chinese.
Anonymous
Hmm. Yes.
Anonymous
As in wo ai ni
Yes.
Perhaps the only sentence I can speak in Chinese besides ni hao and xie xie. :)
Anonymous
As you might guess, ai is a loan from Chinese. Japanese has a large inventory of Sinitic morphemes
Anonymous
And Mandarin is usually written with simplified Chinese, so it's 我爱你
Anonymous
11:58
In Japanese, a less simplified version of 爱 is used, 愛, which I always thought looked nicer :-)
Me too!
Anonymous
See in the middle of 愛, there's a 心, representing the heart (spirit)
Anonymous
That's missing from the simplified version.
I have a book that contains pictogram showing how many words in Chinese evolve into their current form.
Anonymous
(Actually, it's been turned mostly into a horizontal line :-)
Anonymous
11:59
@DamkerngT. I don't like the simplifications used in simplified Chinese writing
I think Chinese calligraphy is beautiful.
Anonymous
I like traditional character forms better
And so Japanese calligraphy too.
Anonymous
Japanese did its own simplifications, but not as many.
Anonymous
Korean retains more traditional forms, but it's not used much anymore
Anonymous
12:00
@DamkerngT. I really do like the Japanese writing system.
I've almost never seen Chinese characters when watching Korean TV shows.
Anonymous
It makes the language much harder to learn, and people who don't enjoy it end up spending a lot of time on it they could instead be spending on the language itself
Anonymous
So in that sense, it's a shame something simpler isn't used
Anonymous
But if you are the sort who likes writing systems, it's really exciting :-)
@snailplane I do too. I think it has kind of spiritual power in itself.
Anonymous
12:02
Also, the writing system does have advantages.
Anonymous
It gives you a way to mentally catalogue the morphemes in the language
When it's well done, we can almost see how much energy the artist put into it.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. I have Japanese paper, ink, and brushes
@snailplane That's an interesting way of thinking.
Anonymous
Of course, I'm no good at calligraphy. But I like it
Anonymous
12:04
@DamkerngT. Well, for example, 「漢字」の「漢」 (the kan in kanji) is very different from 「韓国」の「韓」 (the kan in kankoku)
I'm not that good in calligraphy. :)
But I love drawing.
Anonymous
When you see either one, you instantly know which kan it is.
Anonymous
And you're aware of the different options for a given sound.
@snailplane "I see your point" (Oh I miss that hat.)
Anonymous
You have a list, each one with a little picture to make it distinct :-)
Anonymous
12:06
In my example, the former kan comes from Chinese Han, referring to the Han people of China, while the latter kan is a name for Korea, also from Han, but not the same Han
Anonymous
Sometimes etymology shows through in English spelling.
漢字 <-- what's the meaning of the second word?
Anonymous
Often not. I find our system more confusing
Anonymous
It's zi, "character"
It looks like there is a word for child inside.
Anonymous
12:08
It does look like that. It's a combination of 宀 with 子
Anonymous
Henshall says that the 宀 is a roof, originally symbolizing a house where 子 children are raised
Hmm...
Anonymous
"This came to symbolise proliferation and, fanciful as it may seem, came to be figuratively applied to written symbols, which like children became increasingly numerous and complex."
(trying to make sense of raising children in a house -> word)
Anonymous
On the other hand, Sears says that it was simply borrowed for its sound
12:11
@snailplane That's a very abstract kind of thought. But quite interesting.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. In many cases, there's no scholarly consensus on character origin.
Anonymous
Although there are more mainstream and less mainstream approaches.
Do they use the word etymology for the studies on character origin in Chinese/Japanese too?
Anonymous
Every reference I have agrees on the original meaning, but none of them agree on how it came to mean word.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Well, yes and no. Yes, a lot of people do. No, it's not Linguist Approved (tm).
Anonymous
12:13
Characters aren't words, so etymology isn't quite a "proper" term, if you want to be strict about it.
Anonymous
Thing is, there isn't too much of a better word in English. The best you can do is, perhaps, character origin
Anonymous
But I think etymology communicates a little better, so I'm happy to stretch the definition
Anonymous
I think I should try to go to bed :-)
Oh, please.
It would be the best for good health.
Take care.
 
11 hours later…
22:58
@icegirl yes?
@skullpatrol Attempts to limit female mobility by hampering locomotion are ancient and almost universal.
@IceGirl do you understand why men want to "limit female mobility"?
@skullpatrol no
men are possessive, they do not want their women to go to far
ok. continue
please
come on please
23:07
I am a MAN you are a WOMAN you belong to me, I OWN YOU
You can NOT run from me
Oh, My God
really?
ok
by hampering locomotion are ancient and almost universal?
limit female mobility by hampering locomotion
exactly!
I'm powerful I CAN run from YOU
hampering locomotion?
hampering means slowing down or making it hard to do
it means that difficult movement. right?
23:11
yep
11 mins ago, by Ice Girl
@skullpatrol Attempts to limit female mobility by hampering locomotion are ancient and almost universal.
men have tried to stop women from running away from them for a very long time
I am a MAN you are a WOMAN you belong to me, I OWN YOU
You can NOT run from me. sounds really fun.I'm laughing
The foot-binding of upper-class Chinese girls and the Nigerian customs of loading women's legs with pounds of heavy brass wire are extreme examples. ?
Foot binding (also known as "Lotus feet") is the custom of applying painfully tight binding to the feet of young girls to prevent further growth. The practice possibly originated among upper-class court dancers during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period in Imperial China (10th or 11th century), but spread in the Song Dynasty and eventually became common among all but the lowest of classes. Foot binding became popular as a means of displaying status (women from wealthy families who did not need them to work could afford to have their feet bound) and was correspondingly adopted as ...
please paraphrase it
extreme examples
Thanks
what?
23:16
np
the same is true when men want their women to cover their face
so other men can not look at their property
11 mins ago, by skullpatrol
I am a MAN you are a WOMAN you belong to me, I OWN YOU
cover your face
only I can see it
From who?
other men
Oh,My God. You are sweet tonight
23:20
I am always sweet
Yes. no doubt
:)
just ask questions :)
ok
wait
loading women's legs with pounds of heavy brass wire are extreme examples
i don't understand it
it just means they tied some weight around their legs
loading?
23:26
putting on
. But all over the world similar stratagems have been employed to make sure that once you have caught a woman she cannot run away, and even if she stays around she cannot keep up with you.
have been employed?
to make sure that once you have caught a woman she cannot run away, and even if she stays around she cannot keep up with you.?
paraphrase it please
you try now please
Oh please you
23:32
it is the same idea we have been talking about
ok
next
14 mins ago, by skullpatrol
11 mins ago, by skullpatrol
I am a MAN you are a WOMAN you belong to me, I OWN YOU
What seems odd is that all these devices have been perceived as beautiful, not only by men but by women.
because the women are the victims
I really understand you repeated it many times. :)
23:34
@IceGirl Well, so this is historical stuff you're talking about. I'm not saying that some of it still doesn't take place, or that extreme cultures don't still exist. But it's not true that every man in the world wants to keep all women hidden away and oppressed.
excuse me?
@WendiKidd I don't understand
I'm saying I disagree with the sentiment that every man (or a majority of men) feels they ought to oppress women.
20 mins ago, by skullpatrol
Foot binding (also known as "Lotus feet") is the custom of applying painfully tight binding to the feet of young girls to prevent further growth. The practice possibly originated among upper-class court dancers during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period in Imperial China (10th or 11th century), but spread in the Song Dynasty and eventually became common among all but the lowest of classes. Foot binding became popular as a means of displaying status (women from wealthy families who did not need them to work could afford to have their feet bound) and was correspondingly adopted as ...
@WendiKidd Yes. exactly
I agree with you
23:38
:)
@skullpatrol . The lotus foot which seems to us a deformity, was passionately admired in China for centuries, and today most people in western society see nothing ugly in the severely compressed toes produced by modern footwear
@WendiKidd are you a woman?
@skullpatrol I'm wait for your answer
please
what is your question?
whole sentence
what about it?
lotus foot
23:42
21 mins ago, by skullpatrol
just ask questions :)
I only ask questions
lotus foot means a deformed foot
was passionately admired in China for centuries?
@IceGirl I am.
@WendiKidd Good
23:44
admired means loved
answer me in a complete way PLEASE
ask a complete question to me PLEASE
Hey guys, let's calm down :) @Ice, what are you trying to figure out?
47 mins ago, by Ice Girl
@skullpatrol Attempts to limit female mobility by hampering locomotion are ancient and almost universal.
33 mins ago, by Ice Girl
The foot-binding of upper-class Chinese girls and the Nigerian customs of loading women's legs with pounds of heavy brass wire are extreme examples. ?
23:48
I want to answer my questions about my paragraph in my book
@skull, thanks. Ice, what exactly are your questions about those sentences? What parts do make sense, and which don't? :)
20 mins ago, by Ice Girl
. But all over the world similar stratagems have been employed to make sure that once you have caught a woman she cannot run away, and even if she stays around she cannot keep up with you.
All of them
@skullpatrol Stop please
Do you have any idea about them?
@skullpatrol skullpatrol??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/
are you here?or not??????????????????
do you have any idea?
or continue?
23:55
9 mins ago, by skullpatrol
ask a complete question to me PLEASE
What does this sentence mean? (compressed toes produced by modern footwear)
your feet get squeezed in modern shoes
squeezed?
??????
pushed together
from both sides
. The high-heeled, narrow-toed shoes that for most of this century have been an essential part of a woman's costume are considered sexually attractive, partly because they make the legs look longer- an extended leg is the biological sign of sexual availability in several animal species- and because they produce what anthropologists call a "courtship strut".
narrow-toed?

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