English Language Learners

selva

04:28

hello

Anonymous

08:43

@StoneyB Ah, thank you! I may not be aerial for some time yet--we snail vehicles are not known for our speed

Anonymous

@selva Hello!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It was a good idea.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Thank you. :)

@StoneyB Hello! I hope to see you around here more often.

Anonymous

Is linking to that ELU answer enough for the -able question? I don't have an awful lot to add

Damkerng T.

(I was reading about this and which on Language Log.)

Anonymous

08:46

Ah, I see

Anonymous

Which hunting!

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I guess so, but I think you could post it as an answer, and perhaps provide more verbs that can't be -able-ized.

(Before reading your answer, I was thinking, What does wantable mean? :)

Anonymous

One problem is the classification of verbs as transitive, versus the classification of constructions as transitive

Damkerng T.

Syncope is also good to know.

Anonymous

Syncope is actually really interesting

Anonymous

08:49

There are instances where it's optional and where it's obligatory in English, and it's often reflected in the spelling

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I might prefer sandwitch hunting more. :-)

Anonymous

Consider for a moment the affix -y

Anonymous

If you add it to hunger or anger, what do you get?

Damkerng T.

Hah, hungry and angry, of course.

Anonymous

Sure. If you were forming new words, you might expect hungery and angery, but those derivations already exist in your vocabulary, so you can't form them that way

Anonymous

08:52

You instead get the existing hungry and angry.

Anonymous

Where did the unstressed syllable in the middle go?

Anonymous

It got squished out of the words.

Anonymous

And you can't pronounce it as though it's still there, either.

Anonymous

Most syncope is optional, though: although most everyone says camera as two syllables, you can still pronounce it as three.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I think that is a very important difference between English's stressed-time vs. Thai's stressed-time (when it seems so).

Anonymous

08:53

It turns out there's a fairly good correspondence between spelling and mandatory syncope in older derivations.

Damkerng T.

Syllables in Thais are never really squished out.

Anonymous

No syncope in Thai?

Damkerng T.

I would say not really.

Our syllables are too dominant.

At most, it can be reduced to something sort of schwa.

Anonymous

When English speakers learn Japanese, one of the first challenges in their pronunciation is

Anonymous

In Japanese, vowels are never reduced to schwa.

Anonymous

08:56

Japanese has no schwa.

Damkerng T.

I think CJK and many other Asian languages are very syllable-based.

By the way, I usually pronounce sentences as sent-n-ces...

Anonymous

Japanese is generally considered to be mora-timed

Damkerng T.

Is it also syncope?

Anonymous

As I understand it it's not

Anonymous

You're realizing the phonemic string /ən/ phonetically as [n̩]

Anonymous

08:59

The syllable is still there.

Damkerng T.

Yes, it was a very quick [n], the same goes to words like mountain, and maybe other words but I can't think of them now.

Anonymous

Mountain too can have a syllabic [n̩]

Damkerng T.

I usually pronounce it as mount-n.

Anonymous

Button, cotton, mitten, sadden

Damkerng T.

Ah, mitten... That reminds me of the song My Favorite Things. :)

Anonymous

09:02

Hidden

Anonymous

Blossom :-)

Anonymous

That's a syllabic m.

Anonymous

You can have syllabic m, n, and l

Damkerng T.

Hah, I think I pronounce that [m] a little longer than [n] in mountain.

Anonymous

And r, I guess

Damkerng T.

09:03

Like, mirror?

Oh, and mayor is perhaps also related.

Anonymous

I want to transcribe mirror as [mɪrː]

Damkerng T.

I think I understand what you mean.

Anonymous

Hmm. Would you write [mɪrr̩]?

Damkerng T.

For myself, I usually pronounce it more like [mɪrr̩].

Anonymous

There's a slight dip in intensity in the middle of the r.

Damkerng T.

09:08

What do you call when people say please as puh-lease?

Anonymous

Epenthesis

In phonology, epenthesis (; ) means the addition of one or more sounds to a word, especially to the interior of a word. The word epenthesis comes from epi (on) + en (in) + thesis (putting). Epenthesis may be divided into two types: excrescence, for the addition of a consonant, and anaptyxis (, also svarabhakti) for the addition of a vowel. Uses Epenthesis arises for a variety of reasons. The phonotactics of a given language may discourage vowels in hiatus or consonant clusters, and a consonant or vowel may be added to make pronunciation easier. Epenthesis may be represented in writing, ...

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Ah, thanks.

Anonymous

The electronic dictionary I got has a number of English dictionaries loaded on it

Damkerng T.

^^

Anonymous

English is the #1 foreign language studied by Japanese students

Anonymous

09:10

So there are a number of models aimed at students of English. This isn't one of them, but it is the flagship model, so it comes with a bunch of them anyway.

Damkerng T.

I guess the same goes to all people around the world. :-)

Anonymous

Well, like in Thailand, everyone takes English in Japanese schools, for I think six years

Anonymous

And of course, people do study it beyond that, and there are plenty of opportunities to communicate with the English speaking world

Damkerng T.

Huh? Did you mean in Japan?

Anonymous

Hmm. I thought you said everyone in Thailand takes English in school

Anonymous

09:12

I was saying that that's true in Japan as well

Anonymous

Did I misremember?

Damkerng T.

Oh yes, I see. I understand you now.

Anonymous

So, I have a bunch of English dictionaries on this device now, and most of them have transcriptions of English words. They also have recordings

Anonymous

It's pretty neat.

Damkerng T.

Only six years? From which grade do they start (to learn English)?

Anonymous

09:13

I'm surprised at the variety in the transcriptions

Anonymous

5th grade, I think

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. I think in Thailand, they teach A, B, C, ... since in the kindergartens.

Is that kindergarten the right word? (Sometimes, I confused this word with German.)

Anonymous

Yes, that's the right word for kindergarten

Anonymous

I can't tell you whether it's the right word for the unnamed concept in your head :-)

Anonymous

I attended preschool and then kindergarten

Damkerng T.

09:16

I think in German it's kindergarden (children+garden).

Anonymous

I think so, though I don't know German

Anonymous

Though I suppose it would be Kindergarten with a capital K, since it's a noun

Ice Girl

@DamkerngT. Hi

Anonymous

You think it's usually anglicized to garden?

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl Hello.

@snailplane That's what I'm unsure of. :-)

Let's see if Google Translate can help.

Anonymous

09:18

I trust Google Translate as far as I can throw it.

Damkerng T.

Oh, it returned kindergarten in German too!

garden (Eng) = garten (German)

Ice Girl

(If you have never visited that glittering city in the desert,) (Joan Didion's essay offers you a colorful action-packed tour.)

Do you remember?

continue or not?

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl I don't remember.

Ice Girl

(Depending on your point of view it can symbolize the American dream or the American nightmare). ( If you have never visited that glittering city in the desert,) (Joan Didion's essay offers you a colorful action-packed tour.)

Damkerng T.

Oh, that American dream.

Ice Girl

09:22

yes

remember?now?

Damkerng T.

How much did you continue working on it?

Ice Girl

From depending to nightmare

Damkerng T.

I remember that American nightmare was the last sentence we discussed yesterday.

Ice Girl

yes

Damkerng T.

Did you read or translate any sentences after that?

Wait for a sec, I will get something to drink...

Ice Girl

09:25

I translate all of the sentence in this essay. You know I have problem with paraphrasing

ok

Anonymous

Is your assignment to paraphrase the essay?

Ice Girl

If you have never visited the sparkling city in the desert.... right?

No

I will become to ready for my hard exam

Anonymous

have never visited 〜 have never been to

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl Practicing on your own is a good preparation.

Ice Girl

(visited) omit from this sentence?

yes

Anonymous

09:29

You can't omit visited. It's the main verb in the clause.

Ice Girl

You only said have never been to

Damkerng T.

Though you can say I've never been to London to roughly mean I've never visited London.

Ice Girl

Okay

Damkerng T.

(Actually, I would say I've never been in London.)

Anonymous

Right. Been to (a form of "be to") is an idiom which acts as the main verb in the sentence

Anonymous

09:33

You can make arguments for classifying this idiom in various ways--it's a bit strange. It's not exactly like a main verb (it has no non-finite form, for example), but the details aren't important

Anonymous

What's important is that "never been to" means "never visited"

Ice Girl

I don't know

Damkerng T.

Star the important thing! :)

Anonymous

(Similar idioms: "had better", "would rather", "have got to")

Ice Girl

ok

(Joan Didion's essay offers you a colorful action-packed tour.)

action-packed=trip?

Anonymous

09:35

That one's hard to paraphrase.

Anonymous

Action-packed = exciting

Anonymous

Like a movie with lots of action.

Anonymous

It's packed full of action, so it's exciting.

Damkerng T.

action-packed means it's full of actions.

Anonymous

No, action, not actions.

Ice Girl

09:36

colorful action-packed tour?

Anonymous

It's a mass noun in this sense

Ice Girl

means what?

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Hah, I thought it suggests that you have to hop around to many places in a hurry.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, I suppose that could be exciting... :-)

Anonymous

Colorful here is being used figuratively to suggest that her story paints a vivid picture in your mind, the opposite of bland, dull, uninteresting

Ice Girl

09:38

colorful action-packed tour?means what?

whole sentence

or whole phrase

Thanks

Anonymous

You can find these things in the dictionary, though

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl Do you have a dictionary with you?

Anonymous

With colorful it might be confusing, but you can tell it's figurative because the literal meaning doesn't make any sense.

Ice Girl

What kind of dictionary? I search but I didn't find

Anonymous

But with action-packed, it should be relatively straightforward to understand the definitions I found

Ice Girl

09:41

Of course

Damkerng T.

I mean a dictionary, as in a book.

If you have a dictionary (a book), you can use it as your main reference, and use online dictionaries as your supplementary.

My connection seems to stutter a little.

(Maybe my memory is going to full soon.)

Anonymous

Ahh, I love dictionaries :-)

Damkerng T.

Yes, I have lots of dictionaries. :-)

Anonymous

:-D

Anonymous

I have a small collection of Japanese dictionaries, and some English

Anonymous

09:44

Just one dictionary of French.

Anonymous

And one Spanish.

Anonymous

There are so many great dictionaries available online, too

Damkerng T.

I bought picture dictionaries in Chinese and in French too, though I didn't actually use it. Just couldn't resist. :-)

Anonymous

Oh, picture dictionaries are neat!

Damkerng T.

They are very heavy.

Anonymous

09:45

This EX-word dictionary was worth it--it added dozens of dictionaries to my collection

Anonymous

The most expensive of which actually costs more than this device on paper!

Ice Girl

To be married in Las Vegas, Clark County, Nevada, a bride must swear that she is 18 or has parental permission and a bridegroom that he is 21 or has parental permission.

Damkerng T.

Try bracketing it and identify the verbs.

Anonymous

Oh, that's a tricky sentence.

Anonymous

It's an example of gapping

Ice Girl

09:47

@DamkerngT. I know verb come on

Anonymous

> A bride must swear that she is 18 or has parental permission and a bridegroom [ must swear ] that he is 21 or has parental permission.

Damkerng T.

"a bridegroom that he is 21". Is that true in the US?

Anonymous

It says in Las Vegas, not in all of the US. I don't know what wacky laws they have there. ;-)

Anonymous

Also, "a bridegroom that he is 21" is incomprehensible outside the context of the sentence, so you should insert the deleted material in brackets if you quote it: "a bridegroom [must swear] that he is 21"

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl I mean bracketing the sentence with parentheses, and telling which words are the verbs.

Ice Girl

09:52

Someone must put up 5 dollars for the license.(On Sundays and holidays, 15 dollars. The Clark County Courthouse issues marriage licenses at any time of the day or night except between noon and one in the afternoon, between 8 and 9 in the evening, and between 4 and 5 in the morning.)

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl Do you want the meaning, or you want the paraphrase?

Anonymous

I hope these bureaucratic details aren't supposed to be colorful or action-packed

Ice Girl

paraphrase

Damkerng T.

Okay, then just try to explain the meaning the way you understand it.

Anonymous

@IceGirl Why do you want a paraphrase?

Anonymous

09:54

If you don't need it for your assignment, then can't you understand via an explanation instead?

Ice Girl

because with paraphrase I understand

Anonymous

The explanations are too difficult, then. Hmm.

Damkerng T.

I would like to suggest @IceGirl to start practicing paraphrase...

Anonymous

The problem is, you aren't really telling us what you don't understand about them.

Damkerng T.

at least by trying to say it in @IceGirl's own words.

Ice Girl

09:57

I understand it let's continue

Nothing else is required. The State of Nevada, alone among these United States, demands neither a premarital blood test nor a waiting period before or after the issuance of a marriage license.

Anonymous

What part of this sentence don't you understand?

Ice Girl

demands neither a premarital blood test nor a waiting period before or after the issuance of a marriage license.

Damkerng T.

... demands neither (a premarital blood test) nor (a waiting period (before or after) the issuance of a marriage license).

Anonymous

Nevada doesn't require a blood test before marriage. Nevada doesn't require a waiting period before marriage, either. Other states do require those things.

Anonymous

(At least one of them.)

Anonymous

10:01

I'm not a big fan of decoding-as-translation, personally.

Anonymous

It can be educational, certainly

Ice Girl

ok

Damkerng T.

I think most of the time, when a learner can't understand a sentence, it's most likely that they can't see parts in the sentence.

Ice Girl

. Driving in across the Mojave from Los Angeles, one sees the signs way out on the desert, looming up from that moonscape of rattlesnakes and mesquite, even before the Las Vegas lights appear like a mirage on the horizon: "GETTING MARRIED? Free License Information First Strip Exit."

one sees the signs way out on the desert, looming up from that moonscape of rattlesnakes and mesquite?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Drawing syntax trees is kind of fun. :-)

Damkerng T.

10:04

^^

Anonymous

At any rate, that's why I pointed out gapping in the earlier sentence.

Ice Girl

way out on the desert means?

Anonymous

That's not a sentence.

Ice Girl

Driving in across?

Damkerng T.

Anonymous

10:06

I don't think that's what "way out" means here. :-)

Anonymous

Way out is more like "a considerable distance out"

Anonymous

@IceGirl That's not a sentence either.

Ice Girl

ok

I know

Damkerng T.

Ah, it's more like far out.

Anonymous

Did you forget how to form a question about the meaning of a phrase in English?

Anonymous

10:08

> What does "way out on the desert" mean?

Ice Girl

no. sorry

Anonymous

> What about "driving in across"?

Ice Girl

Yes

Damkerng T.

Driving in (something), and something means the roads across the Mojave from Los Angeles?

Anonymous

"Driving in across" is exactly what it looks like: driving along with two prepositions specifying direction.

Ice Girl

10:11

Sorry. I didn't understand

What does (with two prepositions ) mean?

Anonymous

In is a preposition. Across is a preposition.

Ice Girl

OK

What does (looming up from that moonscape of rattlesnakes and mesquite) mean?

paraphrase it please

Anonymous

What don't you understand about it?

Anonymous

Admittedly, it's a bit opaque.

Ice Girl

I know meaning I don't know how to paraphrase

Anonymous

10:17

Er.

Anonymous

But earlier you said you only needed paraphrases to understand the meaning.

Damkerng T.

If you know its meaning, you must be able to tell others too, right?

Ice Girl

ok. nevermind

Anonymous

So I'm confused.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. This stuff is pretty hard to paraphrase. :-)

Damkerng T.

10:19

I think the basic of paraphrasing is not paraphrasing.

Anonymous

I get a mental picture when I read those words.

Ice Girl

I know all of the meaning I need only paraphrase

sorry

Damkerng T.

First, we must be able to understand the meaning.

Anonymous

If I try to describe that picture, my inability to string words together effectively in a sentence prevents me from doing a good job ;-)

Damkerng T.

Then we learn to tell it in simple words.

Ice Girl

10:19

Yes' it's better

Damkerng T.

One important point that can be very misleading is "a paraphrase must be one sentence to one sentence".

I don't think that it has to be that way.

Ice Girl

Actually I need simple words

Damkerng T.

Okay, @IceGirl, try to tell what you see in the picture.

Anonymous

Haha, Zzyzx.

Damkerng T.

(It doesn't have to be anything related to your essay.)

Ice Girl

10:21

It's picture censored for me

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see...

Anonymous

@IceGirl It's too bad that your internet is censored and you don't find anything wrong with that fact.

Damkerng T.

Ice Girl

What does (like a mirage on the horizon) mean?

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl Can you see my picture?

Ice Girl

10:23

Yes

Anonymous

What don't you understand about "like a mirage on the horizon"?

Anonymous

I'm afraid I don't know what to explain

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Hello

Ice Girl

I don't understand whole sentence specially (like a mirage)?

Anonymous

Can you picture a mirage?

Anonymous

10:24

An oasis in the middle of a desert

Anonymous

Off in the distance

Ice Girl

mirage=rainmaking?

right?

Anonymous

It's an illusion

Ice Girl

ok

StoneyB

@snailplane You are not known for planarity, either, or command of English, and yet Behold, you have transcended these gastropodic limitations!

Ice Girl

10:27

How about (Free License Information First Strip Exit.)? What does First Strip Exit mean?

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Hullo, Damkerng! I am taking a break from onerous literary labours. It's 4:30 in the morning here, so you must not expect coherence from me. I hope I find you well?

Ice Girl

@snailplane How about (Free License Information First Strip Exit.)? What does First Strip Exit mean?

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Though I think I understand only about 60-70% of what you have just said, I think you can find me well enough. :)

Ice Girl

@DamkerngT. How about (Free License Information First Strip Exit.)? What does First Strip Exit mean?

Damkerng T.

I don't know what First Strip Exit is too.

Anonymous

10:30

@IceGirl I'm not sure I can understand that phrase. "Free license information [is available at the] first strip exit"? Is this written on a sign?

Ice Girl

I think so

Damkerng T.

What is Las Vegas strip?

Ice Girl

I don't know

Damkerng T.

Is it a main road in or leading out of a town in Las Vegas?

Anonymous

@StoneyB It's rather late here, too. (I'm not sure whether to assume 4:30 is late or early for you, but 2:30 is late for me!) I should probably be asleep.

StoneyB

10:32

@DamkerngT. 60% or 70% is probably more meaning than I expressed, so you are ahead of me. For the past 8 hours I have been immersed in the technical details of soybean cultivation, so I am laboring to revive my social skills.

Anonymous

In theory, I'm reading. But in practice, I'm chatting on Stack Exchange.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB ^^

Ice Girl

@snailplane What is Las Vegas strip?

Is it a main road in or leading out of a town in Las Vegas?

Damkerng T.

That's what I guessed.

Ice Girl

Yes,I know

Damkerng T.

10:34

If it's correct, then first strip exit must mean the first exit to Las Vegas strip.

Anonymous

@IceGirl I'm not sure of the specifics. It's some kind of road in or around Las Vegas. Wikipedia has an article.

StoneyB

@snailplane It is both early and late, since I have been up all night, and probably won't get to bed for another four hours. However, since it is the holidays, my wife has baked an incredible pecan pie which I greedily look forward to breakfasting on when I finish one more script.

Anonymous

@StoneyB Oh! That last bit is excellent news :-)

Damkerng T.

Wow! Pecan pie! Yumm...

@IceGirl I guess that Free License Information First Strip Exit should mean "free license information" you can get at "first strip exit".

StoneyB

@snailplane Indeed. Pecan pie is my favorite dish (I'm from Alabama).

Ice Girl

10:37

ok

StoneyB

But, alas, there is no banjo on my knee. Either knee. Or my elbow.

Ice Girl

Perhaps the Las Vegas wedding industry achieved its peak operational efficiency between 9:00 p.m. and midnight of August 26, 1965, an otherwise unremarkable Thursday which happened to be, by Presidential order, the last day on which anyone could improve his draft status merely by getting married.

what does (peak operational efficiency ) mean?

StoneyB

@IceGirl I remember that! Alas, I did not marry until five years later, and so did not achieve that deferment.

Damkerng T.

peak operational efficiency = highest efficiency, and it's of operational kind.

Ice Girl

@StoneyB I didn't understand

Damkerng T.

10:41

I just leaned that we could avoid the draft by getting married back then.

Ice Girl

Please wait I'll back 10 min later Sorry

StoneyB

Exactly. It was quite important, since at the time the US was sending draftees to fight in Vietnam.

Damkerng T.

Who was that president back then? Nixon?

StoneyB

In '65 it was Lyndon Johnson. Nixon was elected in '68 and took office in '69.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Oh, thanks.

I'm not sure how to write this...

Tim responded, "Yes, she is."

I'm more familiar with: "Yes, she is," Tim responded.

Should I write this instead: Tim responded. "Yes, she is."

Ice Girl

10:49

@DamkerngT. I just leaned that we could avoid the draft by getting married back then.

I didn't understand this sentence

StoneyB

A said "B" is perfectly acceptable. Indeed, it is the canonical form: SUBJ-VERB-OBJECT. The object is ordinarily fronted only to put the important stuff up front.

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl I meant that (by reading your essay) I just learned that: we (people back then) could avoid the draft (into the Army) by getting married back then (1965).

@StoneyB I'm not sure should I split it into two sentences (and use the period), or I can simply use a comma, or I can use either?

Ice Girl

industry achieved?

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB But reading your answer, I think I should use comma. Am I right?

@IceGirl industry is the wedding industry

Las Vegas wedding industry, to be specific

Ice Girl

together means?

Damkerng T.

10:54

achieve is to reach

Ice Girl

ok

StoneyB

It's not two sentences: the sentence "Yes, she is" is the object of the verb "say", so it is embedded. The comma is demanded by mechanical publishers; I myself do not use it in the inverted structure. And now I must depart, too - I have 3,000 words to boil down to 800 before I can go to bed. Good-night all (from my PoV).

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl Hah! I think you should know what together means, right?

Ice Girl

so so

Anonymous

@StoneyB Normally I would say "rest well", but it seems you don't intend to rest! So I'll say "good night" for once: good night!

Damkerng T.

10:55

@StoneyB Thank you, and see you soon.

Ice Girl

It's strange

Damkerng T.

@IceGirl together = with or in proximity to another person or people

Ice Girl

Oh I mean industry achieved? together means what

Okay

Damkerng T.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Ice Girl

np

Damkerng T.

10:57

Perhaps (the Las Vegas wedding industry) (achieved) its peak operational efficiency between 9:00 p.m. and midnight of August 26, 1965,

It's about the whole wedding industry. The industry "achieved" its peak efficiency at that time.

Ice Girl

Okay

Anonymous

@IceGirl Good luck with studying. I'm going to go read a bit before I go to bed.

Ice Girl

I got it very well

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