English Language Learners

David Wallace

01:18

@DamkerngT. three

Tim

05:02

Hi guys. Do you recommend memorizing increase your vocabulary by memorizing some vocabulary books? If yes, what books?

at the level of GRE vocabulary.

Anonymous

05:19

@Tim I honestly would recommend exposing yourself to as much language as possible in context and picking up vocabulary that way.

Tim

05:56

I tried that before. probably I don't know how to choose the right context, and I feel it isn't efficient.

When preparing GRE exam, I had to memorize many words in a short time, but I forgot them also quickly.

I am thinking if it is a good idea to keep memorizing GRE vocabulary list after taking GRE. I just take my time to understand the words, and not rush.

Anonymous

06:22

@Tim Do you use any spaced repetition software, like Anki?

Anonymous

It could help you keep from forgetting the words you've memorized so far.

Tim

07:00

@snailboat: thanks, it is e a nice application. I just learned it from you

Damkerng T.

07:29

@Tim Another technique that works very for me is to "make it my own".

By "make it my own", I mean in stead of trying to remember the word passively, we use it in our speech or our writing.

By using the word, I believe that it will be more effective than memorizing the the word about 5-10 times (less amount of time needed, that is).

And, I also found that it's less likely to forget the word too.

By the way, I strongly support the "spaced repetition" technique. It really works.

Anonymous

11:55

@DamkerngT. In Japanese, the word corresponding to what isn't always used where it would be in English.

Anonymous

So learners of Japanese often use that word when it's not appropriate.

Anonymous

It ends up perfectly understandable, but it sounds like "translation-ese" rather than normal speech.

Anonymous

If you say dou iu imi ("What does [it] mean?"), the word dou literally means "in what manner", closer to how

Anonymous

(As an aside, Japanese is a pro-drop language, so there is no overt word in that sentence corresponding to it.)

Anonymous

My feeling is that Thai is more like Japanese in these particular ways than English. What do you think?

Damkerng T.

12:07

@snailboat I think Thai is quite close to CJK in this sense (what vs how).

@snailboat To use what or how with "mean", Thais normally use [x-mean-what] if [x] is a word or some inanimate thing (usually in a rhetoric question). In other cases, if [x] refers to a person, a thought, a concept, or something someone did, we usually use [x-mean-how].

This can even overlap with why.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, that same dou is used in a common translation of English why, "dou shite?"

Damkerng T.

For example, to inquire the motive of someone doing something, we usually say [you-did-that-mean-how].

Anonymous

(Literally shite is an inflection of the verb suru "to do", which as in many languages is called upon for a zillion different tasks.)

Anonymous

But the word corresponding more closely to what, which is nani (shortened to nan in some contexts) is also used in a translation for why ("nande")

Anonymous

Unfortunately, when you try to make correspondences like these, they're never very exact.

Damkerng T.

12:13

@snailboat I've heard nani (or sort of nanni to my ears), and something nandaiyo in the soundtrack.

Anonymous

But in this case the Japanese lines up particularly poorly with English :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Japanese is (at least in theory) mora-timed, so na and ni are perceived as equal length.

Anonymous

However! It is common to draw out the na

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes, that's what I usually heard.

Anonymous

So I would imagine that /naNni/ or /naani/ is what you heard.

Anonymous

12:15

Japanese has a moraic nasal (which I wrote /N/ here in phonemic notation)

Anonymous

It has a lot of different phonetic realizations.

Anonymous

Commonly, it is realized as a continuation of the previous vowel, except nasal.

Anonymous

Although in this case I think it would be more likely that the following /n/ sound is held for an extra beat.

Anonymous

So I agree with your nanni.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I guess it sounds more like /naani/. Usually, I heard it when a male said to a woman or his subordinate, almost like a shout.

Anonymous

12:17

(Some people would write nan'ni. Writing the moraic nasal as n' lets people know that it's separate: n'i is very different from ni)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What's interesting is that Japanese is theoretically transcribed the way it's spoken, but there are differences. This is one of them: even when nani is drawn out, it's usually written as though it's two equal beats.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Nandayo is more likely than nandaiyo.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat What does it mean?

(I guess it is similar to nani.)

Anonymous

However, it might sound like the latter; compare the Japanese ohayou, which famously sounds like English Ohio

Anonymous

The nan there is the reduced form of nani. It takes that form before the copula da (loosely translated "is")

Damkerng T.

12:19

@snailboat Is that the phrase for "Good morning!"?

Anonymous

Yo is a discourse particle (a.k.a. sentence-final particle)

Anonymous

Its exact meaning depends on intonation (rising or non-rising)

Damkerng T.

(Sometimes, I think I heard some characters said nantuiyokoto.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, ohayou is "good morning"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Nan to iu koto

Damkerng T.

12:21

@snailboat Thank you. I always wonder what it means. :)

Anonymous

To iu is a complementizer, koto is a grammaticized noun which literally means "things" (abstract)

Damkerng T.

So, it means "What's the matter?"?

Anonymous

Nan to iu koto isn't used for its literal meaning. It's an exclamation used when (for example) you're surprised

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What's the matter would use dou: "Dou shita no?"

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see. Highly related to soka, so-deska or so-desune.

Anonymous

12:24

Ka is a question marker.

Anonymous

It's another sentence-final particle.

Damkerng T.

I usually heard soka used by someone who has just been told something to.

Anonymous

In sou ka, the sou is twice as long as ka.

Anonymous

The ou here marks a long vowel, not two different vowels in succession: /so: ka/

Anonymous

Informally, it can become sokka

Anonymous

12:26

In Japanese, it is stressed (hehe) to learners that the language is rhythmic, that it's divided into beats of equal length

Anonymous

And that words aren't stressed like they are in English.

Anonymous

(Instead, pitch and volume tend to be used for emphasis)

Anonymous

In practice, it's not nearly that simple :-)

Damkerng T.

Actually, I like the way they sound. :)

Anonymous

Although vowel length is phonemic in Japanese, it carries a very low functional load

Damkerng T.

12:27

Hah!

Anonymous

And although it can be very strange if learners get vowel length wrong

Anonymous

Native speakers are constantly altering the lengths of stuff for various reasons.

Anonymous

And they're still understood ;-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I like the sounds of Japanese.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It literally means something closer to "it's early"

Anonymous

12:29

Ohayou is made of about three parts.

Anonymous

O-, an honorific prefix

Damkerng T.

I think Japaneses must have their hard time when they learn English.

Anonymous

haya-ku, the adverbial form of the adjective haya-i (meaning "early" or "fast")

Damkerng T.

Considering that they have only 5 vowels.

Anonymous

And gozaimasu, here omitted.

Anonymous

12:30

@DamkerngT. They're very phonologically impoverished.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat This one I've heard. I thought it was hai-ya-ku.

Anonymous

Consider that the single Japanese vowel /a/ corresponds to five vowels in English!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Again, you hear the i because of the glide in aya

Anonymous

It's not there phonemically speaking

Damkerng T.

I've heard in one movie (can't remember its name), they called McDonald as ma-ku-do-na-ru-du, and baseball as be-su-bo-ro(ru).

Anonymous

12:31

Yes, correct! Except do rather than du

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes, that must be the way I heard it. (I didn't practice myself into Japanese much.)

Anonymous

If someone says "hayaku!" by itself, it is the adverbial meaning, and it's literally like shouting "Quickly!"

Anonymous

In Ohayou [gozaimasu], the meaning "quick/early" has been subsumed. It's not understood literally

Damkerng T.

Another word that I've heard quite often but not sure what it means: hon-to-ni (or something sounds like that)

Anonymous

Although you can fit other adjectives into the same grammatical pattern: samu-i becomes o-samuu gozaimasu, but it's not said very often.

Anonymous

12:34

@DamkerngT. Literally "truly", but the combination hontou-ni has been lexicalized as the adverb hontouni

Anonymous

And like English truly, it has become an intensifier

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I've heard arigato gozaimsu. :)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That is indeed the same pattern, though without the o- honorific

Anonymous

It comes from the adjective arigatai ("grateful/thankful [for]"), which comes from ari "exist" + katai "hard [to]"

Anonymous

So its literal meaning is close to "it is hard to exist" (perhaps etymologically "it is hard to exist [having this debt to repay]", although it's not clear to me), though it too is lexicalized and no one would interpret it with its etymological meaning :-)

Anonymous

12:36

These unusual -u forms come from Western Japanese dialect, from when Kyoto was the capital of Japan

Anonymous

They made their way to Edo (which became Tokyo, the modern capital), where Japanese was very different

Damkerng T.

Just a moment...

Anonymous

And they ended up appearing exclusively with gozaimasu, another import from Kyoto. They now appear chiefly in these derived lexemes (arigatou, ohayou, etc.)

Damkerng T.

My Hagu was asking for his food :)

Anonymous

It's always striking to me how rich and complex the histories of so many languages are. I have such a superficial understanding of even those languages where I know anything at all

Anonymous

12:39

@DamkerngT. Hehe! :-)

Anonymous

Hagu is a cute name.

Damkerng T.

I'm sure every language has its own history. I think English has a very complex one.

Anonymous

Basically in these forms, the /k/ dropped out. arigatai → arigataku → arigatau, and the /au/ sequence of vowels changed to /o:/, a long vowel sound (written arigatou)

Anonymous

In words like arigatou, sayounara, or hontouni, the long vowels are quite often cut short:

Anonymous

Arigato, sayonara, and hontoni

Anonymous

12:41

Doing so is informal but extremely common in speech

Anonymous

I read your answer about Thai on Linguistics.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh! What do you think?

Anonymous

I thought it was very interesting. I gave it an upvote :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, thank you!

Anonymous

It made me think about how rounded Japanese is, rectangularly speaking.

Anonymous

12:42

Of course, English "is" an analytic language

Anonymous

But only for sufficient quantities of "is"

Anonymous

English, like most other languages, doesn't really fit neatly into one bucket or the other

Anonymous

We have some inflectional morphology.

Anonymous

It's actually kind of funny to me that we have comparative and superlative inflections and periphrastic constructions for the same purpose

Damkerng T.

By the way, please feel free to edit my grammar and typos in that answer.

Anonymous

12:44

I could make a few comments.

Damkerng T.

Please.

Anonymous

For example, countable speeches are speeches one delivers, as in a debate or at a podium

Anonymous

Uncountable speech is what linguists generally discuss

Damkerng T.

What word should I use for describing the way people talk in several occasions?

Anonymous

Linguists sometimes study spontaneous speech, for example, speech that is produced spontaneously, as in conversation. But spontaneous speeches are another matter--the usual term for "a spontaneous speech" would be an impromptu speech or an extemporaneous speech

Damkerng T.

12:47

Perhaps I can rephrase my use of speeches to speaking.

Anonymous

(Informally extemp, although that term is mostly limited to people who do extemp on a regular basis ;-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Speech is fine. Speaking is also okay.

Anonymous

You could probably change the first "the rounded rectangle" to "a rounded rectangle".

Anonymous

Using a definite article there isn't specifically wrong, but it feels slightly infelicitous to me

Anonymous

Primary school takes no article

Anonymous

12:49

*This is strengthen is ungrammatical, but this is strengthened is fine.

Anonymous

"Thais pronounce every word in syllables, because that is what we had been taught since the primary school" ← Here, had been taught is wrong. I'd write "what we're taught in primary school"

Anonymous

If you want to use a perfect construction (showing that a state has been entered and that this state has continued into the present), you could say "have been" rather than "had been"

Anonymous

The latter seems to imply that the state has ended, that it's no longer taught that way.

Anonymous

In Thai people can yet speak, replacing yet with nonetheless would make more sense

Anonymous

Combining yet with however is strange.

Damkerng T.

12:53

I tried to say that we were taught for a period of time, and that period was over, but its effects still remain. (So I wasn't sure how to select the tense. Thank you for pointing this out.)

Anonymous

The reason I'd use are is to communicate that people are still taught that way today.

Anonymous

Even if that period is over for you, the writer

Anonymous

When you say we you're speaking on behalf of a larger population

Anonymous

Since expresses that the state is still in effect, by the way.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Often, your choice of words implies a certain aspect.

Anonymous

13:01

I have been eating spaghetti since 3AM. [= I was eating then and I still am now.]

Anonymous

I had been eating spaghetti until I realized all food was evil. [ = I stopped eating spaghetti when I made that realization.]

Anonymous

When I hear had been, my ear expects to hear some reason why the state is no longer in effect.

Damkerng T.

Ah, this is a very important piece of information. Thanks a million!

Anonymous

I once saw a cartoon where a character messed up that phrase

Anonymous

He said "Thanks a hundred, cap'um!" (The cap'um was a botched cap'n, an abbreviated form of captain)

Anonymous

13:05

I've always thought that was really funny.

Damkerng T.

:)

Anonymous

(I didn't say "I'd always thought that was really funny", because that would imply I don't anymore.)

Anonymous

I'd always thought that was really funny[, but now I know better.]

Damkerng T.

Actually, it would be quite okay to me even if you thought that that line were funny.

I think I got that line from a British TV show teaching non-native English learners.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Was. If you say were, you're implying that it's not ;-)

Anonymous

13:10

It's hard to explain precisely when to use the were form, since it exists for only one verb.

Anonymous

But although I use irrealis were in my own idiolect (not all speakers do), it sounds wrong there.

Anonymous

Was can almost always substitute for irrealis were, although it's sometimes markedly informal.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I observe that I (and many other learners) usually have no problems with English tenses in simple sentences...

Anonymous

It can't substitute in constructions like: "Were I to write this sentence, I'd write it very differently."

Anonymous

*"Was I to write this sentence" is ungrammatical

Damkerng T.

13:13

... things get more complicated with if/when constructions. Good learners can deal with them. But when we wanted to talk about really complex thoughts, it would become confusing.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The same is true of learners in Japanese.

Anonymous

I suspect that for learners of English it depends on your L1 language and how similar it is to English in this regard.

Damkerng T.

Yes, I think so too.

Anonymous

Japanese is quite different, so it's challenging for Japanese learners of English

Damkerng T.

It's challenging to Thais too.

From one survey, Thai was the second from the bottom of the list of English proficiency.

Anonymous

13:17

Progressive / simple are also very different in different languages

Anonymous

It doesn't help that linguists disagree on how exactly to describe tense and aspect in various languages ;-)

Damkerng T.

I would say that Thai has virtually no tense. :)

Anonymous

Interesting!

Anonymous

Only aspect?

Anonymous

Japanese is historically mainly aspectual rather than tensed. It's been undergoing a long-term reanalysis of an aspect morpheme as a (relative) tense morpheme

Damkerng T.

13:20

We refer to events through hints and suggestions.

So syntactically, we have no tense.

Anonymous

It's incomplete, so there are situations where it must be interpreted as relative tense, and others where it must be interpreted as aspect

Damkerng T.

But semantically, we have all the tenses (and perhaps even more, as English also can refer to more complex events and situations).

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Tense is usually a syntactic category

Anonymous

Where time is the corresponding semantic category

Anonymous

Any language can express past, present, or future time.

Anonymous

13:22

But not all languages have 3 tenses, or tenses at all

Anonymous

I should try to get a little more sleep. I woke up in the middle of the night

Damkerng T.

@snailboat So I think we can say that there is no tense in Thai language.

Anonymous

That's why I'm here again.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Sure!

Anonymous

Some other languages are more aspect-y than tense-y.

Anonymous

13:23

Like Chinese, for example.

Damkerng T.

You can think of Thai as a hybrid of Chinese and Indian.

Anonymous

Indian meaning Sanskrit? Hindi?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes, Pali and Sanskrit. Not Hindi.

Anonymous

I was trying to guess from context

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It's my bad that I said Indian. (Sanskrit is better.)

Anonymous

13:25

I need to learn some stuff about other languages someday.

Anonymous

I'm really ignorant when it comes to most common languages

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Isn't English the most common one?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Sure, by some definitions.

Anonymous

We just mentioned Chinese. That's not really a language, though

Damkerng T.

True. True.

Anonymous

13:27

You could say Mandarin, which is often described as one of the Chinese languages.

Anonymous

But there are multiple Mandarin languages which aren't mutually intelligible

Anonymous

So in a sense, it depends on what you decide to group as a single "language"

Damkerng T.

Do you learn Chinese (Mandarin) language too?

Anonymous

Not really. I only learned a little.

Anonymous

Same with Korean.

Damkerng T.

13:30

Wow! It's always amazing to meet people who can speak many languages!

Anonymous

I really like Hangul

Damkerng T.

The Chinese writing?

Anonymous

But I found Korean phonology to be much more challenging than Japanese

Anonymous

No, Hangul is the Korean writing system

Damkerng T.

Okay. (Must be confused with Han.)

Anonymous

13:31

They call Chinese writing Hanja, from Chinese Hanzi

Anonymous

(= Japanese Kanji)

Anonymous

Actually, Hanja in Korean are very interesting. Although most Korean is now written entirely or almost entirely in Hangul

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Now I know why they call it Kanji. :)

Anonymous

Korean Hanja are unsimplified.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Kan from Han, as in the Han Dynasty or the Han people.

Anonymous

13:32

Old Japanese lacked an H sound; at that time, what is now the H sound was a P sound

Anonymous

So when it was borrowed (in ... I think the 8th century AD?), the H became K

Anonymous

Have you learned to read kana?

Damkerng T.

Hiragana? Very little. :)

Anonymous

The Japanese H row is a very unusual row due to the sound changes in the H sound over the last 1500 years.

Anonymous

Hira + kana = Hiragana
Kata + kana = Katakana

Anonymous

13:33

Both are varieties of kana.

Anonymous

Japanese usually indicates voiced sounds with a dakuten (lit. "voicing mark")

Damkerng T.

But I remember this one: あ

Anonymous

K sounds become G with a voicing mark
S sounds become Z with a voicing mark
T sounds become D with a voicing mark

Damkerng T.

Usually used in comics for screaming! ああああ...

Anonymous

That all makes sense.

Anonymous

13:34

@DamkerngT. Hah! Yeah.

Anonymous

But the H row becomes B when you add a voicing mark.

Anonymous

That doesn't make any sense, right? B should be the voiced version of P.

Anonymous

That's because the H row used to be a P row.

Anonymous

And the P sound is still retained in certain phonological contexts

Anonymous

Nihon → Nippon

Anonymous

13:36

Yahari → Yappari

Anonymous

So the H row has another mark that can be added to it, called the handakuten "half-voicing mark", which is a misnomer

Damkerng T.

I'm still unsure about the rules when they added (something looks like a double quote) to plain Hiragana characters. Is it for voicing marked?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, the thingy that looks like a quote is the dakuten ("voicing mark")

Anonymous

はばぱ Ha Ba Pa

Damkerng T.

Ahh, I see. Thanks.

Anonymous

13:37

The H row is the only one that has that extra mark available, like a circle. It indicates a P sound

Anonymous

Unfortunately this row now makes very little sense

Damkerng T.

I also think that Japanese's n is tricky.

Anonymous

It is the one I referred to earlier as a "moraic nasal"

Anonymous

It has maybe ... five allophones?

Anonymous

Some of them are singular to English.

Damkerng T.

13:39

For example, n in Doraemon is kind of a mix of [m] [n] and [ng] at the same time. This one is very tricky for me to imitate them.

Anonymous

The most common realization for /N/ in that position is as a nasalized continuation of the previous vowel.

Anonymous

However, if another word follows, that may change.

Anonymous

I'm not sure I can give a 100% accurate account of the allophones from memory, but see Vance's The Sounds of Japanese

Damkerng T.

It's quite cold here. How is the weather there?

@snailboat Found it at Google Books, but no preview. :(

Damkerng T.

13:56

I guess that you (snailboat) have already been in your bed, having a nice dream.

Thank you so much for the corrections.

Let's chat again soon.

See you around. :)

Ice Girl

15:10

@DamkerngT. Hi

what's up?

@DamkerngT. Hellooooooooo

Damkerng T.

15:26

Hello, @IceGirl

I'm not feeling very well.

Ice Girl

why?

Damkerng T.

It's too cold for me here (about 20 degree)

Ice Girl

wow

Damkerng T.

How is the whether there?

Ice Girl

8

Damkerng T.

15:28

Wow! I'm sure I can't stand that.

I prefer 28 degrees Celsius. :)

Ice Girl

Yes, it's very difficult

no problem

Damkerng T.

How about your New Year?

Do you have a plan to go to some nice places?

(on a vacation, I mean)

Ice Girl

New Year? now? Iran is different from other countries do you know?

Damkerng T.

I'm sorry. No, I don't know.

And I didn't know you're from Iran.

Ice Girl

2 months left to New Year in Iran

really?

Damkerng T.

15:33

Ahh, got it.

Ice Girl

How about you? Do you have any plan?

Damkerng T.

Well, I have a plan to staying home. :)

Cleaning up all the messes around my house. :)

Ice Girl

fun

Sorry, Are you alone?

Damkerng T.

At the moment, yes.

Ice Girl

okay

Damkerng T.

15:36

But I'm a family man. :)

Ice Girl

Okay

Do you have children?

Damkerng T.

Nope.

Ice Girl

Oh my God

Damkerng T.

It's okay. Don't worry. :)

Ice Girl

yes

I want to write essay about differences between men and women. I don't know how to start it

Damkerng T.

15:43

Hmm...

What do you think about the differences between men and women?

(An essay should start with your own opinion.)

Ice Girl

It's hard. now i don't know

Damkerng T.

Just try to tell me, as a friend talks to another.

I'm sure you must have some opinions, right?

Ice Girl

yes

Forexample: emotions, mathematical skills, brain size, language

Damkerng T.

That's a good start.

(Though I'm not sure that men and women have different size of brains.)

Ice Girl

but, I'm sure

Damkerng T.

15:48

Okay. Maybe you have some references supporting the idea already? For example, some researches or studies.

Ice Girl

a little

Damkerng T.

You can write an essay based on your opinion on the differences on those [emotions, mathematical skills, brain sizes, language skills].

Just found this:

"Males have been found to have on average greater cerebral, cerebellar and cerebral cortical lobar volumes, except possibly left parietal."

Brain size

Brain size is one aspect of animal anatomy and evolution. Both overall brain size and the size of substructures have been analysed, and the question of links between size and functioning—particularly intelligence—has often proved controversial. Brain size is sometimes measured by weight and sometimes by volume (via MRI scans or by skull volume). Comparisons among animals The largest brains are those of sperm whales, weighing about . An elephant's brain weighs just over , a bottlenose dolphin's , whereas a human brain is around . Brain size tends to vary according to body size. The r...

Ice Girl

Huh?

Damkerng T.

"The gender differences in size vary by more specific brain regions. Studies have tended to indicate that men have a relatively larger amygdalae and hypothalamus, while women have a relatively larger caudate and hippocampi."

It supports your mentioning of the difference brain size between men and women.

"[one study] indicates women have a higher percentage of gray matter, whereas men have a higher percentage of white matter and cerebrospinal fluid."

So they are larger in different parts of the brain.

But some studies disagree with them.

Ice Girl

good

now next

Damkerng T.

15:57

Next what? (confused)

Ice Girl

emotions

Damkerng T.

What is your opinion?

Ice Girl

wait

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