English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

09:15

@snailboat I didn't downvote that. It's a good question.

Anonymous

10:33

@DamkerngT. It might sound silly, but I kind of like reading translations from English.

Anonymous

I think a lot of people feel you should read things in the original because translations are necessarily quite different, and I think people feel a sense of loss there--

Anonymous

--and it's true that every translation will have some compromises, and some will have more mistakes than others

Anonymous

But I really like seeing what a translator does with a book

Anonymous

I have translations of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, for example

Anonymous

(Now there's a book, in my opinion, you can't translate without ending up with something almost entirely different!)

Anonymous

10:36

It is funny when you're reading a translation, though, and you can see exactly which errors the translator made... Sometimes little, sometimes not

Anonymous

For some reason, I just get really excited about being able to compare :-)

Anonymous

(I'm sure there are many more differences I don't catch.)

Damkerng T.

Okay, should I get from the first sentence of The Hobbit?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I have to admit, I don't really know what to picture when I read the shoulder of the hill. I guess it makes me think a little more toward the top than the side.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Get what?

Anonymous

10:39

Although most of your sentences seem like fluent, native English, I couldn't understand that one.

Damkerng T.

I mean get to start translating it back to English for a few sentences.

Anonymous

Oh! That sounds fun.

Anonymous

Round-trip translation is always exciting.

Damkerng T.

Sorry, I was too focus on retrieving that book and the English version.

Anonymous

Personally, I think the best translations don't preserve all the details, but capture the same feeling, the spirit of the original

Damkerng T.

10:41

And my English will sound off a little, because now I have to switch my thoughts back and forth between the two languages.

Anonymous

If a term sounds poetic in one language, but literally translated becomes mundane, substituting something with a different meaning but similar feel can be an improvement, I think

Damkerng T.

The Hobbit

Chapter 1

The Unexpected Party

(Note that it sounds more like "the" than "an" in Thai)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. When I've been doing things in Japanese for a while, I start spelling things wrong in English--I start making weird phonetic substitutions and homophone errors. It's strange, because I'm usually an extremely good speller, and it's a skill I have never put any effort into. But when my mind is in "Japanese mode", I start making silly mistakes--even sometimes mixing up L and R :-)

Anonymous

Pardon the interruption

Damkerng T.

In an underground hole, there was a hobbit living there.

That hole was not a dirty hold, wet, full of worms left, and smelly.

Anonymous

10:44

I'm reading along in my copy of The Annotated Hobbit

Damkerng T.

(Note that she chose a very strange word for "smelly", I think she simply made that word up, just to sound dramatic.)

Anonymous

Hah

Anonymous

Maybe to go with oozy?

Anonymous

"an oozy smell"

Damkerng T.

And it's not a hole that was dry, empty, having only sand, nothing for sitting down or eating.

This hole was a hobbit hole, and that means it has to be a very comfortable hole.

(Not very bad, up to this point--I mean that translation.)

Anonymous

10:47

Yay! Paragraph one complete.

Anonymous

This was one of my favorite books when I was little. I first read it when I was six

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure about this word. The original is "porthole".

She chose to translate it as "a window found in ships".

I think it's quite correct. What do you think.

Anonymous

Hmm... Well, I think that's the intended meaning. A perfectly round window, as you'd see on a ship

Damkerng T.

Okay, I will continue...

The hole's door is in spherical shape just like a porthole.

(Note that "door is spherical".)

Anonymous

Oh, but in point of fact the door should be flat, I think.

Damkerng T.

10:51

It was painted in green, having a knob made by brass, a very shiny yellow one, in the exact middle of the door.

Opening the door, you will arrive a long-shaped hall, like tunnel.

Anonymous

Tube-shaped!

Anonymous

I don't actually know what long-shaped means. It means long, I suppose.

Damkerng T.

It was a tunnel that is very comfortable, no smoke, with panelled walls.

The floor was tiled with ceramics and carpets.

Anonymous

Ah! Ceramics

Anonymous

I suppose it never occurred to me to think of what material the floor was tiled with.

Damkerng T.

10:55

There was a shiny beautiful polished chair and lots of hooks attached to the walls for hanging hats and coats.

--hobbits like to have visitors come to visit.

This tunnel went deeper and deeper. It went fairly deep, though not quite straight into the shoulder of the hill.

Anonymous

Hmm. Shoulder of the hill seems odd to me there

Damkerng T.

--Everyone who was around, miles away, usually called this hill--hill Hill.

(She chose to translate "The Hill" as a hill called Hill.)

--There were may spherical doors popping up around the shoulder of this hill.

Some here. Some there.

Anonymous

What does the phrase you're translating as "the shoulder of the hill" make you think of?

Damkerng T.

Hobbits would never walk upstairs to the upper floors.

Anonymous

That's a little odd, if the Thai implies that they do have upper floors. (Your English translation does)

Anonymous

11:02

Of course, the original does not--it's explaining that there are no upper floors

Damkerng T.

The upper floor is fuzzy. Because we don't specifically say it as a singular or plural, it can be both.

Anonymous

In your translation, it's the which implies that they exist

Damkerng T.

But it specifically mention that there had to be at least one floor about the ground floor.

Anonymous

Whereas the original says that there is only one floor, zero upper floors

Damkerng T.

There are two "the shoulder of the hill", which one did you ask about?

Anonymous

11:03

Either. What do they make you think of?

Anonymous

For me, shoulder makes me think of the top or near the top of the hill, while side does not, which I think makes shoulder not quite right here

Damkerng T.

It made me imagine a bigger hill. Big enough that there can be some part of it looking a lot like staircase. And the "staircase" part might be referred to as "shoulder of the hill".

Anonymous

Ahh, like a bend

Damkerng T.

Yes

Anonymous

That seems to fit with the translation you gave

Anonymous

11:06

Although as I said, I'm not entirely sure what to picture.

Damkerng T.

But when I read the original, it give me a very different imagery.

Anonymous

Oh, I bet

Anonymous

It does seem different already.

Damkerng T.

I particularly has a problem with "It went fairly deep", since the original it should be interpreted as "fairly straight, but not quite".

I really don't know where that "deep" came from.

Anonymous

Oh, wow. J.R. just used the term "subject-verb disagreement". I love it! I've never seen it put that way before

Damkerng T.

11:10

Where did J.R. use that?

Anonymous

The "deep" may correspond to "The tunnel wound on and on"

Damkerng T.

Hmm...

Ah, I saw it (J.R. post).

Anonymous

Oops, I missed your question

Anonymous

I'm rather sleepy, you see.

Anonymous

Ahh, what a nice book.

Damkerng T.

11:15

What's your timezone?

Anonymous

It still makes me smile

Damkerng T.

It is a great book.

Anonymous

I am in Pacific Time, currently Pacific Standard Time (PST = UTC-8)

Anonymous

After I read the Hobbit, I immediately started on the Lord of the Rings

Damkerng T.

So it's 03:15 there.

Anonymous

11:17

But it was rather difficult for me at that age, and it took me months to plow through with a dictionary.

Damkerng T.

I think it's a great book.

What is your opinion on that Thai version (and my translation)?

Anonymous

Well, I can definitely see what you mean about it not being quite the same

Damkerng T.

(You can say it straightforwardly.)

How typical is it for native speakers to say a "shoulder of the hill" or something along that line? Or you usually think of it as a "side of the hill"?

Anonymous

Honestly? People presumably say it because I can find search results for it, but I can't actually remember having heard it before

Anonymous

It's new to me

Anonymous

11:27

The Japanese is something like: Chapter 1: Unexpected Guests. In a hole in the ground, there lived a hobbit. Although it was a hole, it was not a hole filled with worms and grubs, not a hole with a gutter-like smell, not a damp and dirty hole, and neither was it an unfriendly sandy hole--it was a place where you could sit down and eat. In short, it was a hobbit hole, so of course it was pleasant.

Anonymous

The front door was as perfectly round as a manhole cover, painted green, and in the exact center was a yellow, brass, shiny doorknob.

Anonymous

(A manhole cover!)

Damkerng T.

Hah! "it was a place where you could sit down and eat". They moved the entire phrase out and negate it to make it sound right!

A "round" door is much more accurate than a "spherical" door.

Anonymous

Inside the door was a tunnel--a hall in the shape of a long tube hall. Although it was a tunnel, it was a wonderful tunnel without smoke, and inside the entrance were paneled walls, tiled floors and carpeted floors, polished chairs, and on the walls were a great many lines of metal hooks for hanging up hats and coats, because this hobbit liked to have a great many visitors.

Anonymous

The tunnel wound round and round in curling paths, winding its way toward the interior of the hill.

Anonymous

11:37

Somehow it seems much curlier to me in Japanese than English.

Anonymous

The French version begins "Dans un trou vivait un hobbit"!

Damkerng T.

"this hobbit" makes it clear which hobbit we're talking about. My version seems to use the term "hobbit" collectively in that sentence.

Anonymous

It's not really specified in Japanese, but I guess I understood from context that it meant this hobbit

Anonymous

Japanese doesn't have articles (or any kind of determiner) or grammatical number

Anonymous

It does have demonstratives, but I feel like they would be unnecessary here

Damkerng T.

11:41

"The tunnel wound round and round in curling paths, winding its way toward the interior of the hill." --This makes quite a similar impression to the original.

Anonymous

The original does say mostly straight though, does it not?

Anonymous

"going fairly but not quite straight"

Damkerng T.

Yes, but coupled with "wound on and on". I think it's quite close.

Anonymous

It does have a similar feel to it

Damkerng T.

At least "the interior of the hill" gave me a closer image to the original than "into the shoulder of the hill".

Anonymous

11:45

Oh, definitely.

Damkerng T.

Gotta find something to eat. Don't you have to go to bed?

Anonymous

In theory!

Anonymous

I will shortly. :-)

Anonymous

I'm just not feeling too well

Damkerng T.

Huh? What do you mean?

Anonymous

11:50

Well, I won't be able to sleep if I try to go to bed right at the moment.

Damkerng T.

Ah, having some warm water might help.

Drinking something warm and reading some book usually helps me sleep easily.

AFK for a while. See you soon.

Ice Girl

12:14

we crunch and chew our way through vast qualities of snacks and confectioneries and relieve our thirst with multicolored, flavored soft drinks, with and without calories, for two basic reasons.

we crunch and chew our way?

badass

@IceGirl that means we "eat"

Ice Girl

@badass relieve our thirst with multicolored,

badass

"crunch" is the sound of eating potato chips

Ice Girl

I know.what our way?

badass

@IceGirl when you want to drink something you are said to be "thirsty" for a drink

" our way through " means go through or consume

{we crunch and chew}=eat

Ice Girl

12:20

OK

badass

eat our way through

Confectionery

Confectionery is related to the food items that are rich in sugar and often referred to as a confection. Confectionery refers to the art of creating sugar based dessert forms, or subtleties (subtlety or sotelty), often with pastillage. From the Old French confection, origin of Latin confectio(n-), from conficere, to "put together". The confectionery industry also includes specialized training schools and extensive historical records. Traditional confectionery goes back to ancient times, and continued to be eaten through the Middle Ages into the modern era. Confections include sweet fo...

Ice Girl

we associate these foods, and we enjoy the sensation of eating it.

badass

where does it say that^

9 mins ago, by Ice Girl

we crunch and chew our way through vast qualities of snacks and confectioneries and relieve our thirst with multicolored, flavored soft drinks, with and without calories, for two basic reasons.

Anonymous

@IceGirl verb our way through something implies that there's a huge quantity that you're working your way through over time

Anonymous

Also, I think where you wrote quality it's supposed to say quantity

Ice Girl

12:25

The fist is simple:the food tastes good, and we enjoy the sensation of eating it. second,
we associate these foods, and we enjoy the sensation of eating it.

continue my text

@snailboat YES sorry quantity is right

@badass we associate these foods?

badass

We crunch and chew our way through vast quantities of snacks and

confectioneries and relieve our thirst with multicolored, flavored soft drinks, with

and without calories, for two basic reasons. The fist is simple: the food tastes

good, and we enjoy the sensation of eating it. second, we associate these foods,

and we enjoy the sensation of eating it.

Anonymous

Associate?

Anonymous

Is that a typo?

Ice Girl

whole sentence

Damkerng T.

Probably, "we associate ourselves with these foods", whatever that means.

Anonymous

12:31

That's grammatical but still silly.

Anonymous

"I consider habanero fajitas a part of my core identity!"

Anonymous

I guess I do. I like habanero fajitas a lot.

Damkerng T.

LOL

badass

@IceGirl There is an unwritten meaning here which says : We associate with these foods certain pleasures

Ice Girl

sorry. we associate these foods, often without being aware of it, with the highly pleasurable experiences depicted in the advertisements used to promote their sale.

Anonymous

12:34

Oh, right! Propaganda.

Anonymous

I don't watch advertisements, as a rule

Anonymous

I also don't drink soda and generally don't eat junk food, although I ate candy this halloween for the first time in years, so I can't claim to be totally innocent of junk food.

Anonymous

I put on weight, too.

badass

@IceGirl we associate these foods=advertisements make us connect them to pleasure

associate=put together

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Isn't that paradoxical?

Ice Girl

12:37

please wait until i write it thanks

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What, gaining weight from eating candy?

Anonymous

If that were a paradox, we would be living in a better world.

Damkerng T.

Gaining weight from eating candy only once this year (the halloween). Maybe that's not very paradoxical, depending on the amount of candies. :)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, unsurprisingly, I gained weight when I ate the candy. ;-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I was about to ask Tim that "He is so boring. Talk about humour!".

Ice Girl

12:42

current television advertisements demonstrate this point: people turn from grumpiness to euphoria after crunching a corn chip.

badass

bipolar

grumpiness to euphoria

north pole to south pole

Ice Girl

Others water ski into the sunset with their loved ones while drinking a popular soft drink.

badass

This is what the advertiser is wanting you to believe:

happiness=soft drink

Damkerng T.

Hmm, I might need to learn to quote things in chat properly. Reading my last post the wrong way and it could sound offensive, which is not what I intended.

Ice Girl

people entertain on the patio with friends, cook over campfires without mosquitoes, or go to carnivals with granddad munching away the at the least candy or snack food.

@badass badass i didn't understand this one:others water ski into the sunset with their loved ones while drinking a popular soft drink.

Damkerng T.

12:48

@IceGirl water ski here is a verb

badass

@IceGirl "water ski into the sunset with their loved ones" is a good thing right?

Ice Girl

water ski means?

badass

ski on water

ski on snow

Ice Girl

right

Damkerng T.

@badass How did you quote that Confectionery? Just pasting a Wikipedia link? Thank you, badass.

Ice Girl

12:51

happiness=soft drink. while drinking a popular soft drink. Are you sure means happiness it's a little vague for me

badass

@DamkerngT. yes

@IceGirl yes, that is what they want you to believe

Ice Girl

@badass can you paraphrase whole sentence?

badass

@IceGirl first you try please

Ice Girl

i don't know

badass

@DamkerngT. there are lots of formatting hints in the "help" link in the bottom right hand corner of the screen :)

Ice Girl

12:59

@badass help me

badass

@DamkerngT. chat.stackexchange.com/faq#formatting

@IceGirl try please

Damkerng T.

@badass That's REALLY helpful. Thank you very much!

badass

np

Ice Girl

while drinking soft drink we skiing with each other.

badass

ok

so?

Ice Girl

13:03

aha ok

people entertain on the patio with friends, cook over campfires without mosquitoes, or go to carnivals with granddad munching away the at the least candy or snack food

badass

@IceGirl keep going

put all the ideas together

Ice Girl

people entertain on the patio with friends, cook over campfires without mosquitoes, or go to carnivals with granddad munching away the at the latest candy or snack food

ok

badass

this doesn't sound right

munching away the at the latest candy

?

Ice Girl

but the writer wrote it

badass

there is an extra "the"

can you find it?

Ice Girl

13:12

yes sorry

badass

np

Ice Girl

i'm really confused

badass

read slowly and carefully

Ice Girl

people turn from grumpiness to euphoria after crunching a corn chip. I didn't understand it yet

grumpiness=bad-tempered and easily annoyed?

badass

yes

euphoria = opposite of grumpiness

Ice Girl

13:18

yes

people turn from ?

badass

35 mins ago, by badass

north pole to south pole

@IceGirl go from one pole to the other

Ice Girl

ok

one wonders how popular the food they convince us to eat would be if they would crunch or drink away while complaining about low back pain or clogged sinuses.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. There are some additional things supported that don't show up in the help

Anonymous

> If you begin a line with > like this one, it shows up as a quote

Anonymous

> You can have multiple lines
> show up as part of a larger quote

Anonymous

13:28

> > You can even nest quotes

Anonymous

But the second doesn't get parsed.

Anonymous

You can hit shift-enter to span multiple lines
But if you do, then *markdown* **won't** [work](http://example.com/)

Damkerng T.

Test...

>Indented...

http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/12786663#12786663

Ice Girl

@DamkerngT. one wonders how popular the food they convince us to eat would be if they would crunch or drink away while complaining about low back pain or clogged sinuses.

Damkerng T.

Okay.

Ice Girl

13:34

@DamkerngT. can you paraphrase it?

Damkerng T.

But you understand it, right? Try to say it in your own words.

Ice Girl

little

ok

Damkerng T.

13:48

Testing again...

> This should be indented.

It wasn't :(

Anonymous

Put a space after it.

Damkerng T.

Ah, thank you.

> This should work.

> Yeah!

> chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/12786663#12786663

Anonymous

Well, when someone says they've gained weight, you have to figure out the span of time they're talking about. I just meant around October ;-) I didn't mean I gained weight overall for the whole year

Damkerng T.

I just tried to paste something talked about earlier.

Like this one chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/12786951#12786951.

How did he do it?

Anonymous

Oh, I know. But I didn't see it earlier

Anonymous

13:55

So I decided to respond.

Anonymous

Paste it on a line by itself, nothing else.

Anonymous

And it'll work.

Damkerng T.

36 mins ago, by badass

35 mins ago, by badass

north pole to south pole

Oh, I see. Thanks.

It will be indented automatically.

It seems like you are going to be an all-nighter tonight. (Is that the right word?)

Anonymous

Oh, er, crud!

Anonymous

When did it get to be tomorrow?

Damkerng T.

14:00

True, true. Tomorrow never comes. :)

Anonymous

Well, I took a couple excedrin about six hours ago

Anonymous

Apparently, they have caffeine!

Anonymous

I feel jittery.

Damkerng T.

Excedrin is a brand name?

(Never heard of it.)

Jittery can be a good thing.

I'm in my couch right now. Looper is coming up.

Anonymous

14:39

Yep. It's acetaminophen, caffeine, and aspirin.

Damkerng T.

18:32

Waiting for @Tim. :)

Maybe he's not around.

Anonymous

21:33

@DamkerngT. Did you vote to reopen the 10 minutes question?

Anonymous

I think there's a hat in it for you

Damkerng T.

Oh, I just saw Tim edited hos question.

And FumbleFinger said if he edited it, then it could be reopened.

So I helped.

No hat, I guess.

Anonymous

Oh, it's still not reopened yet

Damkerng T.

Oh I got confused, it's not Tim. But anyway ...

Is there a hat for that?

Actually, I aim for two more hats. One on Christmas, and another on New Year.

Transcript for

English Language Learners