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Anonymous
00:00
You may have come up with that idea indepedendently--it is somewhat unlike other uses of than--but it's also possible you did have someone tell you and don't remember
Anonymous
I use both pronunciations.
Anonymous
But I only say /ˈnaɪðər/ for neither
Anonymous
I didn't encounter "different to" until I was an adult
Anonymous
So until then, I thought the choice was between from and than
00:02
@snailboat As you say, the verb agrees or can agree with the noun phrase that comes after. What is the essence of a subject? To me, it is the pattern of agreement.
"different to" sounds BrE to me
Anonymous
@TylerJamesYoung Yes, I think so.
The first argument you mention I do not find very strong.
Anonymous
Well, I think of "subject" as a syntactic thingy.
anyway, I'm going to try to shower without getting my cast wet
Anonymous
00:03
Good luck!
Anonymous
Maybe your cast needs a raincoat.
@TylerJamesYoung Oh, good luck! Did you break a bone?
Have you tried a plastic bag with tape?
I had an extra bone removed, actually
Wow!
Were you a freak, like me?
"os trigonum"
00:05
@snailboat Yes, so do I. So...
occurs in about 10% of people
Triangle bone?
and normally doesn't cause any problems
Where is it located?
but I had a car run over it about 5 years ago
00:05
Oh no!
Foot?
ankle, right behind the talus
Oh, dear.
yeah, kind of my fault
Anonymous
@Cerberus I included the other argument because it's one that John Q Public made, if I understood correctly.
I was riding on the hood of said car, and let go of the hood in an attempt to light a cigarette
00:06
And you will have no problems walking once it is removed?
Anonymous
I am not sure what he considers a subject to be.
it'll be about a year before I'm back to 100%
@snailboat OK well you can tell him Cerberus diagrees!
Anonymous
I got run over by a car before.
but at least it won't be in there inflaming everything
the last straw was a torn ligament
00:07
Oh, jeepers.
Anonymous
The difference is, I was the one who was driving it.
were you ghost riding the whip?
You ran over yourself?
haha I gotta go. I'll check back later
Bye!
Anonymous
00:08
I was 3. I was imitating my mom. I got her keys off the hook in the kitchen, got to the car, put the keys in the ignition, got it into neutral, and it started to roll down the hill. I fell out the open door and somehow managed to get myself into the path of the wheels, and it rolled over me, continuing down its path until it hit the tree on the other side of the cul-de-sac.
Anonymous
I was a real driver!
Wow.
And you are alive?
Anonymous
My brother was 7, and he watched me do it. He didn't say anything, though, until ten minutes later when my parents called us to dinner
Anonymous
And my mom said "Where's Crystal?" and my brother said "Oh, she ran over herself with the car"
Anonymous
I believe I was in the hospital for a while, but I have very little memory of it at all
00:09
Did you manage to retract into your shell in time? Or can your boneless mouth, proboscis, etc. be run over without punishment?
Anonymous
The only part I do remember is false: I remember specifically that the ambulance turned right out of the cul-de-sac where we lived, and the hospital was right there, on the same block
How badly were you hurt?
Anonymous
I didn't actually live on the same block as an ambulance, though
Odd.
Anonymous
But that's the only memory I have of it, so I can only tell you what people told me about it since.
Anonymous
00:10
I don't think it was all that bad.
Anonymous
I'd have to call up my mom and make her tell me the story again to find out more
Anonymous
It wasn't traumatic, either. I didn't grow up with a crippling fear of falling out of cars.
Hmm.
Anonymous
It may have been traumatic for my mom, though :-)
Anonymous
00:13
I got injured a lot as a child.
Why?
Anonymous
Oh, various reasons.
Anonymous
That car one was my own fault. Well, if you accept that it wasn't my parents' fault for letting it occur
Anonymous
One time I got attacked by a dog.
Anonymous
It wasn't really trying to attack, though. It was just trying to be friendly, and it jumped on me, but it had just had its claws clipped short, and the remaining parts were very sharp, and I got long scratches
Anonymous
00:17
And I couldn't get away, because I was at a neighbor's house for a birthday party, and they had moved something over in front of the stairwell so that the dog wouldn't go upstairs
Anonymous
So really the dog was trying to be friendly, but I got scratched up and after that I was afraid of dogs, possibly including Kerberos, for a while
Anonymous
I still am afraid of dogs, but I'm a lot less afraid of dogs. I made myself spend time with them
Anonymous
Sometimes I even tell them that they're good dogs, and that yes they are.
Anonymous
Or even that who's a good dog.
Ouch!
I'm glad I can be of therapy.
Anonymous
00:20
Hee.
That sounds really nasty. Did you get any scars?
Anonymous
It probably sounded nastier than it was. I don't have any scars still visible that I can tell
Anonymous
Well, on my legs.
Anonymous
Which is where I got scratched.
OK.
I have to say I'm not a huge fan of dogs.
Anonymous
00:21
I don't really know why some things turn out to be traumatic and others don't. Dogs have scared me almost all my life
They make noise, they stink, they need walking.
Anonymous
I love cats.
Same!
It's also because we always had cats, never dogs.
Anonymous
I grew up in a family with a lot of pets.
Anonymous
I personally had mostly hamsters, but also a newt, some water snails, a tadpole and later a frog, some hermit crabs
Anonymous
00:24
These days I have land-mollusks.
Anonymous
I've been wanting to say land-mollusk all day.
Anonymous
@Cerberus Here, I found it
Anonymous
Well, I'm not saying I've never heard it used that way before, but that disagrees with every grammar book I've ever owned, and it's at odds with most of my style guides that I use. We may not be operating with the same definitions, but I'm in no way confused. In my world, a subject is the agent of the action, the verb is the action, and the object is the recipient of that action. To my ear, your terms indicate linguistic function, which doesn't always match grammatical function term-for-term. Now that we've got this all out of the way though, do you have an answer for me? ;) — John Q Public 2 days ago
Anonymous
A semantic definition of subject!
Anonymous
I've been reading a lot of semantic definitions of things that I think are syntactic lately. And by "reading" I mean "reading in comments on various Stack Exchange sites", for some reason.
Anonymous
00:33
@snailboat I would think that semantic function is much more important than arbitrary parts of speech. In thsi case, something is in 連体形 if and only if it is semantically a noun-modifier. End of story. — user54609 Dec 6 at 17:24
Anonymous
Similarily, something is in 終止形 if and only if semantically it is a finite verb. — user54609 Dec 6 at 17:25
Anonymous
I was at a loss to respond to those comments
Anonymous
Since 連体形 (rentaikei) and 終止形 (shuushikei) are names for forms of inflectable words.
Anonymous
I don't even know what it means for something to be a finite verb semantically.
@snailboat Oh, I see.
Well, some linguists would actually use somewhat similar terms.
The term "notional subject", for example, is based on the same assumption.
As is calling him in I want him to go the subject of go: I would not call that a subject.
Anonymous
00:44
@Cerberus Sure. I was trying to acknowledge the "subject as part of a logical proposition" thing.
@snailboat Yes, it is a good example.
@snailboat Nor I.
Anonymous
@Cerberus That's an example of raising-to-object, right?
Anonymous
I'm still trying to get comfortable with the idea of raising
Anonymous
Japanese linguistics has a very strong Chomsky-ite faction, you know
@snailboat I think so...
Ugh, Chomsky...sorry.
Anonymous
00:47
Yeah, I kind of agree
It is as though he were using obscure and non-intuitive terms on purpose.
Anonymous
One reason I like Huddleston & Pullum is that they try to adopt traditional terms where they believe they make sense
Like "x-bar" and "theta". Which I believe are terms for rather prosaic phenomena that we have simple, clear names for—I think "theta role" is more or less the same as "semantic role"?
@snailboat Right, but my problem is that they use a traditional term to mean something different from (from!) what it means traditionally.
Anonymous
@Cerberus Oh no! But then, what is a linguist to do? Unfamiliar terms are unfamiliar, but familiar terms are taken!
And then some people claim only this new definition is "correct", and the traditional definition, which contradicts it, is then "wrong".
Anonymous
00:51
Oh, I see--
@snailboat There is a third way between "old term" and "meaningless new term": terms like predicate frame and semantic role and topic and focus are perfect. In other words, you can create a new term that is clear and intuitive.
Anonymous
--I try to stick to "what I would say is blah blah blah" rather than "No, only blah blah blah is correct"
Anonymous
Or, hmm.
Heh, I try to do so too.
Anonymous
I'm guilty of claiming English has only two tenses. I'm too convinced by the arguments to admit a periphrastic future tense
00:52
En garde!
I mean, I see.
I personally find that debate a bit...useless.
Pick whichever definition you like and make sure people know who uses which definition.
Anonymous
Well, it's always useful to give your definitions when possible.
Or at least when you know the audience might use another definition.
Anonymous
And it's not like I comment on every answer I see saying "future tense" just to say "No! There is no future tense!"
Anonymous
But I do leave comments sometimes linking to one description or another of modal will, for example
Anonymous
StoneyB took an interesting approach
@snailboat I guess John Lawler already does that for you!
Anonymous
This description was written by StoneyB.
Arg, text wall.
Anonymous
@Cerberus And when I comment on a post that is specifically about the analysis in CGEL explaining that there are only two tenses, tchrist is there to defend the traditional view and say my comment is worthless :-)
Hehe.
He can be...sharp of tongue.
Anonymous
00:58
He has strong views.
Anonymous
Views about stuff.
Partly in reaction to Lawler's pet peeve.
Anonymous
I'd like EL&U to be a place where you can discuss different grammars, if you like
Anonymous
Though I don't mean to demand that a given post necessarily fit within a single framework--
Anonymous
--just that people should be able to discuss things like CGEL if they'd like
Anonymous
01:01
But I don't know. I don't end up using EL&U that much.
Discuss how? That should be possible already?
Anonymous
Well, sure. You can post anything you like.
Anonymous
It's just that people push back, so it gets tiring.
Anonymous
I don't really have a good feeling for the EL&U community
Anonymous
Maybe if I kept using the site I'd have different experiences
Anonymous
01:04
I posted a mini-answer today
Anonymous
Not a very complete answer, but it already had a lot of discussion, so I thought I'd add one bit I didn't see addressed in the other answers
Anonymous
Hmm... I'm looking at the list of latest questions.
Anonymous
Oh, I like this one!
Anonymous
1
Q: Jewish American word for stuffed cabbage

SolitaireThe word used by non-American and many American Jews for stuffed cabbage is 'holishkes'. There are a few variations. But I heard someone use a word that sounds like 'hole-up-tious'. I cheched numerous spellings such as holupzes, cholupzes, etc., but could not find anything. I am assuming it ...

Anonymous
Why am I talking about EL&U in the ELL chat instead of the EL&U chat?
01:08
Heh.
Anonymous
I joined the EL&U chat.
Anonymous
It was very exciting for me
Yay!
Anonymous
I don't know what I think of traditional grammar. Or modern grammar
Anonymous
It's not like either of those are cohesive things.
Anonymous
01:14
Japanese traditional grammar is something of a mess
Anonymous
Because Japanese characters generally represent consonant+vowel at a minimum, but not individual consonants or vowels. Unfortunately, Japanese morphology doesn't respect the C+V unit
Anonymous
So the traditional analysis had to work around that limitation, unable to subdivide C+V pairs
Anonymous
Whereas modern grammars are all off in left field following the latest idea for a generative framework
Anonymous
So I'm left putting my own mental grammar together based in part on the work of others, based in part on what makes sense to me
Anonymous
There's also a structuralist tradition in 20th century Japanese linguistics, but I think they're hampered by some odd choices made by Bernard Bloch, the first structuralist to analyze Japanese
Anonymous
01:24
As you can imagine, everyone gets caught up in arguing over definitions.
Right, that is a problem!
I agree that there aren't really two cohesive systems.
It is more like two general directions.
Any serious traditional linguist will also use many new terms and theories, like predicate frames etc.
But there is a certain foundation that he will build upon, which Pullum & co. would have destroyed.
"Would have destroyed" as in "would like to see destroyed".
Anonymous
Stress on have
I s'pose.
Anonymous
Or uh, not reduced like the auxiliary have, is what I meant.
Ah, yes, absolutely.
 
10 hours later…
11:53
@IceGirl what is your question?
please wait sorry
@IceGirl np
I don't know np means
No Problem :)
N.P.
np
Not a problem
about my context that i sent it
did you read it?
11:58
It is too long...
Ok np
Now i ask from my new context
What level of school is this for?
I need to know so that I can adjust my approach :)
university not school
I am translation student
12:03
icic
So you translate languages?
yes. English to persian
Ok, that helps.
I make popovers, which are unseasoned rolls. means: unseasoned rolls?
Let me show you how to "approach" this question.
With my work area set up, i must make clarified butter and garlic butter.
12:10
You don't know what a "popover is, right? So you highlite it and google search and get this
A popover is a light, hollow roll made from an egg batter similar to that of Yorkshire pudding, typically baked in muffin tins. Popovers may be served either as a sweet, topped with fruit and whipped cream for breakfast or with afternoon tea, or with meats at lunch and dinner. Name The name "popover" comes from the fact that the batter swells or "pops" over the top of the muffin tin while baking. Another name for them is Lapplander, which comes from the name of the nomadic Swedish reindeer herders. History The popover is an American version of Yorkshire pudding and similar batter pud...
Now you know what they are.
no i know this i don't know unseasoned rolls
the sentence also says "I make popovers, which are unseasoned rolls"
ARE means they are the same
well unseasoned means?
popover = unseasoned roll
equals means "is"
understand
Ahhhha
12:14
2 mins ago, by badass
the sentence also says "I make popovers, which are unseasoned rolls"
are is a form of the word is
Yes do you think i'm crazy?
no
English is hard
I'm very sad
why?
Yes Yes very very very very very difficult
12:17
practice, practice, practice,...
nothing
practice more than it? i'm really tired
rest and come back latter :)
With my work area set up, i must make clarified butter and garlic butter.
no i mean, I'm tired from practice
Are you tired from my questions?
no
np
With my work area set up?
12:24
The approach is to try to put more words into the phrase and give it more meaning
With my work area set up the way it is now...
The way I have my work area set up
The current set up of my work area
@IceGirl See how I keep the words work-area together and just move the other words around?
I love English to much I began to learn it since I'm 12 years old
OK
no what?
12:30
not OK
I love English a lot, I began learning it when I was 12 years-old.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh yes sorry really sorry
4 mins ago, by Ice Girl
I love English to much I began to learn it since I'm 12 years old
1 min ago, by badass
I love English a lot, I began learning it when I was 12 years-old.
@IceGirl Compare these two please
@IceGirl Look for the differences between them.
Also look for what is the same.
Yes I know but I don't know why wrote it in that way
Why do you think people write the way they do?
I want to write when but i had doubts
12:38
You need to read more well written literature.
Like the stuff you were asking me earlier :)
escargots? this is not in longman dictionary
google
shame on me for such mistakes
12:47
Hover your pointer over the first letter of the word: **escargots**

left click, move the highlight over the word

right click choose "Search Google for escargot
Escargot is a dish of cooked land snails, usually served as an appetizer in France and in French restaurants. The word is also sometimes applied to the living snails of those species which are commonly eaten in this way. Escargot, , is the French word for snail. It is related to Occitan escagaròl and Catalan cargol, which, in turn, may derive from a pre-Roman word *karakauseli. Similarly, Spanish and Portuguese use the term caracol. Not all species of land snail are equally edible, and many are too small to make it worthwhile to prepare and cook them. Even among the edible species,...
@IceGirl Wikipedia is a great source of information :)
@IceGirl Have you heard of Kung-fu
yes why?
What I have just shown you is called Google-fu
Use it wisely :D
5 mins ago, by badass
Hover your pointer over the first letter of the word: **escargots**

left click, move the highlight over the word

right click choose "Search Google for escargot
13:10
I make au jus? what does it mean?
@IceGirl Use Google-fu
Au jus is French for "with [its own] juice"; jus is the juice itself. In American cuisine, the term is mostly used to refer to a light sauce for beef recipes, which may be served with the food or placed on the side for dipping. In French cuisine, jus is a natural way to enhance the flavour of dishes, mainly chicken, veal and lamb. Ingredients and preparation 'Jus' means the natural juices given off by the food. To prepare a natural jus, the cook may simply skim off the fat from the juices left after cooking and bring the remaining meat stock and water to a boil. Jus can be frozen for six ...
Do you know about pronunciation?
a little
13:26
can you make sentence for citadel(n)?
I need simple sentence
google citadel
A citadel is a fortress protecting a town, sometimes incorporating a castle. The term derives from the same Latin root as the word "city", civis, meaning citizen. In a fortification with bastions, the citadel is the strongest part of the system, sometimes well inside the outer walls and bastions, but often forming part of the outer wall for the sake of economy. It is positioned to be the last line of defence should the enemy breach the other components of the fortification system. A citadel is also a term of the third part of a medieval castle, with higher walls than the rest. ...
I need sentence that the word citadel used it
for bulwark(n)?
also for cogent(adj?)and dynamic(adj)
bul·wark (b l w rk, -wôrk , b l -). n. 1. A wall or embankment raised as a defensive fortification; a rampart
Very similar to a citadel
sentence please
A bulwark was built around the house
A citadel was built around the city
13:39
cogent(adj?)and dynamic(adj) dilapidated(adj)
thanks for helping badass
@IceGirl can you google-fu them now on your own?
OK. yes.thanks bye bye
later
14:10
@Mistu4u Please correct the room description below the title **English Language Learners**
English sentences, discuss about Linguistic and NOT ---lurk--- USE like to talk over about anything they want. :-)
English Language Learners
lurk
like
 
2 hours later…
15:54
There are plenty of sentences with the word citadel, here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Citadel,_Plymouth
 
1 hour later…
16:59
@IceGirl Yes?
 
2 hours later…
Anonymous
19:07
Poor little escargots!

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