« first day (4051 days earlier)      last day (870 days later) » 
00:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

3:00 PM
39
A: Do an action and its Euler-Lagrange equations have the same symmetries?

QmechanicSetting. We are considering a transformation, which may transform the field variables $\phi^{\alpha}(x)$ and which may transform the space-time points $x^{\mu}$. The transformation in turn apply to The action $S_V[\phi]=\int_V \! d^nx~{\cal L} $. The Euler-Lagrange equations = the equations of...

Only one state is actually symmetric under the Poincaré group by the way, and that is the vacuum
every other state will break that symmetry
 
3:47 PM
I guess the only choice for me now is to move onto the Lagrangian formalism
It just doesn't seem to be used that much in CMT
 
3:57 PM
I think it’s more relevant if you’re doing condensed matter field theory
 
That's what I'm essentially doing but all textbooks don't really explain the fundamentals of anything
 
does the de Sitter and anti de Sitter structure tell anything interesting about the manifold?
I vaguely remember them being involved in the Big Tower of Symmetries
that's the stuff
 
4:37 PM
I wonder what the Giant Diagram of Groups look like if you include the various structures, extensions, covers, projective and conformal variants, contractions and Whitehead towers of the Poincaré group
 
 
1 hour later…
6:52 PM
Just to check, the $SO(3)$ symmetry related to the rotational invariance of a classical particle is just an illusion right?
 
I don't know how a symmetry can be an "illusion"
 
By illusion I mean that it looks like that if we look far away enough
As in particles aren't actually points in phase space
 
a classical particle is a point in phase space
 
But classical particles don't exist
 
a real-world particle you have in a lab might not be a point
but that doesn't change that classical mechanics often models particles as single points
 
6:54 PM
A real-world particle must always be a quantum particle right?
 
perhaps?
 
The point being, every object has an $SO(3)$ symmetry
For the action
Not just point
 
if there's a theory "below" QM, it would actually have to always be that
who knows what quantum gravity has to say about particles
physics just provides models
 
Point particles also have the "configuration" itself being invariant under $SO(3)$
 
@Slereah not really, e.g. a spinning top whose moments of inertia aren't all equal doesn't have an SO(3) symmetry
it has SO(3) rotations acting on it
 
6:56 PM
@ACuriousMind Hush you
 
but it's not symmetric under them
 
Sorry by $SO(3)$ symmetry, I meant that if you actively rotate the point particle around it's center and keep everything else about the system the same, the physics doesn't change
 
Point being, objects of all shapes and creeds have an action that is invariant under $SO(3)$
 
if your system consists of only the point particle, sure
that's just conservation of angular momentum
 
but for the point, the configuration $x$ itself is invariant
(if you rotate around the point itself)
 
6:57 PM
No I'm talking about the point particle being inside a more complicated system
If I rotate that point particle around it's center, nothing changes
classically
 
sure
 
You can't rotate a point, it's a point. The symmetries are symmetries of the Lagrangian or Hamiltonian describing a given physical system, some systems have symmetries, others don't, for example the Kepler problem $L = \frac{1}{2} m \dot{\mathbf{r}}^2 - V(r)$ has spherical symmetry
 
what does "rotate a point particle around its center" mean
it'S a point
how do you rotate a point "around its center"
 
Well that's the $SO(3)$ representation that gets lifted to a projective representation which describes spin and not the angular momentum one
 
???
this is classical mechanics
there's no "representation"
if you're doing Hamiltonian mechanics, you have a momentum map/Hamiltonian group action
 
7:01 PM
what is certainly true is that $0$ is a fixed point under $SO(3)$
If you fix a frame on your point particle it will certainly be invariant under rotation
 
what will "be invariant"?
 
not gonna work if you go wild and have two points
 
no one cares if the numeric values of your position vector don't change just because you chose the origin cleverly
physical "symmetries" are symmetries of things like the action or the equations of motion or their solutions - it's pointless to talk about "a point particle", you actually have to talk about a physical system with an action and everything
 
I mean initial conditions or configurations having certain symmetries certainly has its importance
"In quantum theory, spontaneous symmetry breaking requires the system to be infinite dimensional. When the number of degrees of freedom is finite, spontaneous symmetry breaking does not take place."
 
7:38 PM
But then what representation (corresponding to what exact symmetry) is being lifted to a projective representation when describing spin?
 
who says that there is such a representation?
we know that $\mathrm{SO}(3)$ is a group under which the theory should transform. The nature of quantum states means that therefore the group is represented projectively on the quantum space of states
that's the argument for spin without ever even mentioning classical mechanics
 
For anyone wondering why the profile activity pages suddenly are way less informationally dense on desktop, it's another responsiveness change
 
7:54 PM
For a system in eq. it's distribution function \rho(x,p,t) is non-zero constant in some region and zero elsewhere. In the case of MCE this region is practically a line, along the which, \rho is constant?
 
@imbAF it's not a line, it's a (hyper)surface of codimension 1 - as you know, for the ideal gas it's a cube in the position part and a sphere in the momentum part
 
a surface*
I meant a surface of the hypersphere
but because I draw that sphere in a 2d plane it's a line :P
@ACuriousMind I am familiar with the sphere only, I don't know about the cube in position part. The only cube I know, is the 6N dimensional cube of a microstate in phase space
 
@imbAF you know about the cube, that's the $V^{N}$ part when you compute the phase space volume/number of microstates
 
Yes I know that
 
i guess it doesn't have to be a cube, it's whatever shape the volume $V$ the particles are confined to has
 
8:05 PM
At least I got this part right
@ACuriousMind If we have a system AB, made by two sub-systems A and B, and for simplicity the total system (AB) is in a pure state $|\Psi\rangle_{AB}=|\Psi\rangle_{A} \times |\Psi\rangle_{B}$. The density matrix of it would be $\rho_{AB}=|\Psi\rangle_{AB} \langle \Psi|=|\Psi\rangle_{A}\langle \Psi| \times |\Psi\rangle_{B}\langle \Psi|= \rho_A \times \rho_B$
Is this correct ?
 
all those $\times$ should be $\otimes$, but otherwise that's correct
 
omg yes
sorry
 
For a particle, if $e(\tau)$ transforms as $e'(\tau') = \frac{d \tau}{d \tau'} e(\tau)$ under a 'gauge' transform, and you 'fix' a gauge by setting $e = 1$, this is supposed to be saying $1 = \frac{d \tau}{d \tau'} 1$ so that there would be no more 'gauge' transformations that preserve this, however we can actually have $c = \frac{d \tau}{d \tau'} 1$ for $c$ a constant, as long as $\frac{d \tau}{d \tau'} = c$, so it's only partial, right
 
@ACuriousMind I thought that's how angular momentum arrises
 
Now if the joint system AB is in a mixed state his density matrix would be: $\rho_{AB} =\Sigma_i P_i |\Psi\rangle_{AB}^i \langle \Psi|^i$, is that right until now?
 
8:14 PM
But we don't look at the projective representations of angular momentum right?
 
@imbAF yes
@DIRAC1930 spin is angular momentum
it's just not orbital angular momentum, i.e. $x\times p$
 
@ACuriousMind and how would i write that same density matrix,but expressed via the density matrix of the sub systems, just like I did initially for the pure state of the joint system?
$\rho_{AB}=\Sigma_i \rho_A^i \otimes \rho_B^i$ ?
 
@imbAF you need to do a partial trace
@bolbteppa sounds plausible to me
 
yes, the partial trace would give me the density matrix of either of the sub systems, or no?
 
Wait so the theory transforms under 1 copy of $SO(3)$?
 
8:19 PM
@imbAF well, the partial trace w.r.t. A gives you the density matrix of B and vice versa
 
yes
 
@DIRAC1930 that's an ill-defined question - if you just say "I do a rotation", then you have to act with the total angular momentum, i.e. both orbital and spin. But there are situations where it makes sense to only act with spin or only act with orbital angular momentum, since they can be conserved separately
 
but there is no similar expression $\rho_{AB}= \rho_A \times \rho_B$ , when the joint system is in a mixed state
@ACuriousMind btw thx for the links
"The connection between subsystems and statistical ensembles is simple: Entanglement."
 
@imbAF there is - from the density matrices you get from the partial trace, you get back the original matrix precisely as $\rho = \rho_A\otimes \rho_B$
 
Do we have two copies of $SU(2)$ in the quantum theory?
 
8:21 PM
didn't I just say that the question about "copies" is ill-defined :P
 
Where are copies, or lifts of representations, coming from
 
@ACuriousMind ooo I see, each density matrix you acquire from the partial trace, can be used in $\rho = \rho_A\otimes \rho_B$
 
if you have two representations $V_1$ and $V_2$ of a group $G$, you can always talk about only transforming $V_1$ while doing nothing on $V_2$ and vice versa
whether that's a useful idea depends on the context, but you can do that
you could think of this as producing "copies" of $G$ where now $V_2$ transforms in the trivial rep of the copy or something, but you also can just...not think like that
@imbAF yes (I see that as the justification for why the partial trace is the correct operation to begin with)
 
And somehow the P_i will vanish?
 
what do you mean by "vanish"?
 
8:25 PM
probabilities in $\rho_{AB} =\Sigma_i P_i |\Psi\rangle_{AB}^i \langle \Psi|^i$
Oh sorry
you start with partial trace
and you arrive here $\rho = \rho_A\otimes \rho_B$
In my mind I was starting here $\rho_{AB} =\Sigma_i P_i |\Psi\rangle_{AB}^i \langle \Psi|^i$ and trying to arrive here $\rho = \rho_A\otimes \rho_B$
that's what I meant with P_i "vanish"
 
well, they don't vanish, they're encoded in the density matrix
the density matrix is nothing but a representation of the probabilities "in matrix form"
 
Yes
 
so they don't occur anywhere explicitly in the matrix formalism, since they're "inside" the matrices
 
Ofc they are somehow encoded after you make the change in how you express \rho_{AB}
 
Do we have two representations to choose from or do they exist simultaneously? $U_1 U_2 = + U_{12}$ and $U_1 U_2 = - U_{12}$
 
8:28 PM
And that's what I was trying to do early on. Find a way to change this $\rho_{AB} =\Sigma_i P_i |\Psi\rangle_{AB}^i \langle \Psi|^i$ into $\rho = \rho_A\otimes \rho_B$
But I failed.
I will try again
 
@imbAF I give the way to obtain the probabilities in the subsystem from the $p_{ij}$ in the combined system explicitly in eq. (1) in the answer I linked
 
Yes, I am reading that rn
 
So we consider the projective representation of $SO(3)$ and spin and angular momentum both arise just from that one?
 
@DIRAC1930 I really don't understand what you're talking about
let's take an electron
it's a spin-1/2 particle with state space $L^2(\mathbb{R}^3)\otimes\mathbb{C}^2$
there's the spin-1/2 irrep on $\mathbb{C}^2$
 
But you've just stated it's a spin 1/2 particle without deriving it
 
8:36 PM
and $L^2(\mathbb{R}^3)$ decomposes into the representations $H_\ell$ (spherical harmonics!) with integer spin $\ell$ under the action of orbital angular momentum $x\times p$
@DIRAC1930 you can't "derive" that the electron is a spin-1/2 particle any more than you can derive its mass or charge!
I look at a Stern-Gerlach experiment with electrons, I see spin-1/2 behaviour, so I choose spin-1/2 particles as my electrons
simple as that
 
Okay so a theory with a classical vector field that transforms under $SO(3)$ when quantized is essentially just a quantum theory with quantum point particles and no spin
 
I have no idea what that sentence means
"quantized" is a little better, but the particles associated to a classical vector field will be spin-1 particles
 
@ACuriousMind great answer, highly complicated with plenty to unpack TT
 
I don't know how you arrived at "no spin"
 
I'll be back!
 
8:42 PM
@ACuriousMind If I have a scalar field (that is invariant under $SO(3)$), and quantize it, I will get a quantum theory with spin-0 particles?
 
This is very cool
 
if all your weird questions amount to "why does the particle associated with a quantum field have the same spin as the representation on the target space of the field", it basically once again comes down to the compatibility condition $\rho(g)\phi(x) = U(g)\phi(x)U(g)^\dagger$, but Weinberg's QFT book also has a lengthy technical demonstration of that (and of course also a discussion of massless relativistic non-scalar fields being special)
 
Weird questions?
 
well, from the last five or so only one made immediate sense to me :P
 
8:51 PM
Yeah I don't have the correct language to describe these weird systems nailed down
So is the easiest way to think about these things in terms of field theory rather than 1920s QM?
 
that's not really avoidable - if you weren't confused about what's going on you wouldn't be asking questions
if I came across as a bit judgy there I'm sorry
 
I have no idea whats going on so I agree lol
I think I'm getting somewhere however
Why do spin 1/2 fields have to be Grassmann?
As in how does that arise in reference to everything we've been talking about
 
that's the spin-statistic theorem
and it doesn't apply to the non-relativistic SO(3) case you've been talking about, so one can imagine spin-1/2 bosons in that case
 
9:10 PM
Would you recommend the Weinberg book?
It uses a weird notation which I do not like however
 
I do not recommend it for learning QFT, I do recommend it for a) learning at lot of subtle arguments other sources skip over and b) learning a very different perspective on QFT since he starts with the particles and then constructs the fields, while everyone else does it the other way around
the notation is terrible, you just have to suck that up :P
 
@ACuriousMind QFT is a branch of physics much like nuclear physics etc, or a way to study it?
 
QFT = quantum field theory
 
yes
 
it's more a tool than a subfield on its own, much like "quantum mechanics". The subfields that use it are things like high-energy physics, condensed matter, ...
 
9:16 PM
the branches I want to specialize in , but I need to pass statistical exam first xD
 
 
2 hours later…
11:27 PM
@ACuriousMind perturbative QFT is a tool. Not so sure about nonperturbative
 
@Semiclassical lattice computations are non-perturbative ;)
 
Fair. My point is more that there’s parts of QFT where our tools are very limited indeed
Eg the vexation of the numerical sign problem
I was about to say that QM at least doesn’t have that, but I actually don’t know
I guess it’s more an issue of many-body QM in general rather than just for field theory
 
00:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

« first day (4051 days earlier)      last day (870 days later) »