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7:58 AM
morgen
 
Grrr. safesphere's at it again, promoting non-mainstream stuff about black holes. physics.stackexchange.com/questions/499216/…
 
Why so many "X asteroid is eerily close to earth" news these days?
 
8:38 AM
@PM2Ring it appears that many of his comments have been deleted. If you see crap posted in comments you should flag it for the moderator's attention.
 
8:55 AM
@JohnRennie I did flag it. I suggested moving the thread to chat, but of course the mods are not obliged to follow such suggestions.
 
oi sergei
Yes, I'm alive
 
 
3 hours later…
12:18 PM
How's everybody doing?
 
1:12 PM
so
 
i accidentally rediscovered a generating function for spherical bessel functions last night
 
there have now been 500+ questions on HNQ since data collection into SEDE began
 
so that was neat
 
here's a first stab at having a look at that data
if anybody finds something interesting there, or has ideas about how to skin that data but can't be bothered to SQL them, feel free to ping me
@Semiclassical huh
@Semiclassical no, but that answer is scary as hell.
 
Just saw a terrible book that is using “Me V” for megaelectronvolt.
I wonder what they think “Me V” means.
The kinetic energy gained by a megaelectron accelerating through a potential difference of one volt?
 
1:14 PM
@Loong yes
of course
 
okay :-)
 
@EmilioPisanty on that note, see my comment to that answer for the relevant GF
I think my comments to the question and to the answer point to a simpler derivation (i.e. without going into RMT)
 
@Semiclassical what?
 
as in, my comments to the question/answer here: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3336956/…
i.e. the answer you just called scary :P
 
@Semiclassical ah, sorry, I misread GF as GIF, and I was like, ain't no GIF there, bro
 
1:18 PM
looool
 
moderators done steamrolled your GIF links into oblivion
likely 'cause they were funny but irrelevant
=P
that's not how SE rolls, y'know
 
lol
the way the GF showed up in my derivation was pretty cute imo
 
0
Q: Does isotropicity depend on the location of the origin from where we see the medium?

HilbertLet us say we have a charged non-conducting sphere having a spherically symmetrical charge density $\rho (r)$ that decreases as $r$ Ignoring all other properties, If we positon ourselves in the center of the sphere, the medium will appear isotropic because of the spherical symmetry charge distr...

isotropicity?
isotropicality, maybe?
 
"Does a medium being isotropic"
 
no, it does look like it should be isotropicity
which makes 'isotropic' the second best adjective to -icity-ize
the best such adjective being, of course, 'cyclic'
 
1:21 PM
Start from $\frac{\sin x}{x}=\sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{(-x^2)^n}{(2n+1)!}$
 
What is isotropi city
 
then replace $x\to \sqrt{x^2-y}$ to get $\displaystyle \frac{\sin(\sqrt{x^2-y})}{\sqrt{x^2-y}}=\sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{(y-x^2)^n}{(2n+1)!}$
 
Where is it
 
at that point, one expands the binomial and interchanges the order of summation to get $$\sum_{n=0}^\infty \sum_{k=0}^n \binom{n}{k}\frac{y^k (-x^2)^{n-k}}{(2n+1)!} =\sum_{k=0}^\infty \sum_{n=k}^\infty \binom{n}{k}\frac{y^k (-x^2)^{n-k}}{(2n+1)!}=\sum_{k=0}^\infty \sum_{n=0}^\infty \binom{n+k}{k}\frac{y^k (-x^2)^{n}}{(2n+2k+1)!}$$
 
oooooffff
 
1:26 PM
or $\displaystyle \sum_{k=0}^\infty \frac{y^k}{k!}\sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{(n+k)!}{n!}\frac{(-x^2)^n}{(2n+2k+1)!}$
note that, for the $k=0$ term, you just get back the Taylor series for sin(x)/x
So you've got a family of functions, indexed by $k$, which generalize the Taylor series for sin(x)/x
the miraculous thing is that this sum is basically just $j_k(x)$ :)
literally, that sum is just $j_k(x)/(2x)^k$.
So you end up with $\displaystyle \frac{\sin(\sqrt{x^2-y})}{\sqrt{x^2-y}} = \sum_{k=0}^\infty \frac{j_k(x)}{k!}\left(\frac{y}{2x}\right)^k$
if you replace $y=2z x$ that gives $\displaystyle \dfrac{\sin(\sqrt{x^2-2z x})}{\sqrt{x^2-2z x}}=\sum_{k=0}^\infty j_k(x)\frac{z^k}{k!}$
Which to my eyes is pretty cute
(your mileage may vary on that, of course)
 
@Semiclassical yeah, that is vaguely neat
 
writing it as $\displaystyle j_0(\sqrt{x^2-2zx})=\sum_{k=0}^\infty j_k(x)\frac{z^k}{k!}$ is probably pretty silly, by contrast.
still fun to do tho
 
=P
@Semiclassical well, it's close to, but not quite, a translation theorem for spherical Bessel functions
 
so they're being arbitrary, unfair, and wrong (since they'll only form a bell curve when you have an infinite number of students)
heck, it won't even form a perfect bell curve in that case: a perfect bell curve has support on the entire real line, not on [50,100]
 
that's just semanticizing the bell-curve property out of existence
just define "perfect Bell curve" as "optimal match to Bell-curve behaviour within the set of all finite testing schemes"
 
1:38 PM
riiiight
 
no, wait, hang on
the Central Limit Theorem is well-known to have first been proved by J.S. Bell
 
the real bell curve:
@EmilioPisanty the related neat thing is Rayleigh's formula: $j_n(z)=z^n \left(-\frac{1}{z}\frac{d}{dz}\right)^n j_0(z)$
 
@Semiclassical hmmm
yeah, looks similar
 
which it seems like one should be able to use in simplifying the proof. haven't done that yet
 
reminds me of this one
7
Q: Pochhammer symbol of a differential, and hypergeometric polynomials

Emilio PisantyI have a minor result which I'm sure has come up somewhere before but I can't seem to find it. Consider a confluent hypergeometric function of the form $$\newcommand{\ff}{{}_1F_1} \ff(b+k;b;z)\textrm{, for }k\in\mathbb{N}.$$ Numerical tests suggest that this is always a polynomial of degree $k$...

 
1:46 PM
$$\sum_{k=0}^\infty j_k(x)\frac{z^k}{k!}=\sum_{k=0}^\infty x^k (-x^{-1} D_x)^k j_0(x)\frac{z^k}{k!}$$
A pity that $x^k (-x^{-1} D_x)^k\neq x(-x^{-1} D_x)x(-x^{-1} D_x)\cdots x (-x^{-1} D_x)$, or one could do something cute with that
Ideally, I'd be able to write down a cute operator exponential for $\sum_{k=0}^\infty x^k(-x^{-1}D_x)^k (z^k/k!)$
another cute identity, and one I don't have a good explanation for (besides hurr mathematica says so): $\int_0^\infty x^{-n} j_n(x)\,dx=\pi/(2^{n+1} n!)$
 
2:21 PM
user image
3
 
2:33 PM
-4
A: Electrolysis of diluted sulfuric acid

Tayyab ZubairiOH-ve Can't be reduced.... It may only Oxidized by giving electron at anode. while H+'ve Reduced instead of OH-ve. Secondly Reducing property of H2O Is Greater than That of H+'ve ion,Moreover It is greater in number than other ions like H+'ve Ions etc.....So It will be preferentially discharged A...

I want to cry.
 
3:09 PM
@PM2Ring all gone now :-)
 
3:26 PM
I have an inquiry about a simple classical mechanics problem. Let's see if I can paste this picture
Here I am, it's problem 29. I've done everything right, except determining the $k$ spring constant.

My reasoning was: if the spring can be compressed by $L1 = 2.0cm$, then during that process it accumulates $\frac{1}{2} k L1^2$ energy. If this energy is drawn from force $F1$ which acts along a distance $L1$, then we have the equation

$\frac{1}{2} k L1^2 = F1 L1$.

But as it turns out, something must be wrong in the reasoning. But what exactly?
Someone is going to suggest to rely on the $F = kx$ equation, but then the question still applies. Why doesn't the reasoning above lead to the same result?
 
3:51 PM
@Acsor the equation for the energy $U = \tfrac12 kx^2$ assumes that the applied force is equal to the spring force i.e. the applied force is $F = kx$, not a constant force.
The equation comes from the expression $U = \int F dx$. Since $F = kx$ we get $\int kx dx$ which is $\tfrac12 kx^2$.
So you can't equate the energy to the work done by a constant force.
 
Probably I have done the wrong assumption of equating the spring potential energy with the work from the constan force
What does "a spring that can be compressed 2.0 cm by a force of 270 N" mean then? 270N at the end? If it is, it sounded hugely ambigous to me :/
Well it looks it all boils down to how I interpreted the statement, which is "The spring can be held compressed at L1 by an application of a constant force F1". Basic Newton 2nd law yields the answer
 
4:13 PM
@Acsor it means k times 2cm = 270N
We should probably stick to SI units so it means 0.02k = 270.
 
Yes yes, that was my final point. I just misinterpreted the text
Thanks for the insight! :)
 
@Loong wow, that's remarkable
never mind the 've's
 
4:50 PM
what theories of physics are there that don't rely on universal mechanism (the philosophy that everything can be reduced to the motion and collision of matter)? I can think of the "physics" of Aristotle and Native Americans, but they are very limited in what they can predict and are sometimes just wrong. What other theories qualify that do better at predicting the world? Quantum mechanics might fit but I don't have a strong enough understanding of it to say that definitively.
 
@roobee It is rather questionable that any modern physics (quantum mechanics, general relativity) relies on "the motion and collision of matter".
The underlying ontology of quantum mechanics is still very much being debated (cf. the plethora of "quantum interpretations")
 
Really one of the main things we learned in the past 100 years is that phrases like “the motion and collision of matter” are too vague to mean anything.
 
@ACuriousMind If modern physics don't rely on the motion and collision of matter then here is a follow up question. What theories of physics don't rely on fields (I believe QM and GR use fields)?
 
bowchicka wowow
my neuromorphic computing article got published on the internal site hehe
 
@roobee "Field" is really just a name for a function that assigns some value to each point in spacetime. Since physics uses math, you won't really find any theories without that.
 
5:04 PM
Wouldn't that only be a scalar field...do you consider multi-valued functions to be functions as well or are you on the side of the fence that functions should be single valued?
 
"value" here doesn't necessarily mean "number" :P
 
blasphemy
 
Can be a number, a vector, a spinor or anything else
 
well wikipedia agrees with you so I guess that's cool
 
@ACuriousMind What theories use fields whose output/input are not numbers/collections of numbers?
 
5:06 PM
"In mathematics, a function[note 1] is a relation between sets that associates to every element of a first set exactly one element of the second set."
since elements of a set can be relatively arbitrary...
 
And would this count as a "field"? A theory of physics using sound as the building blocks. Upon hearing sound A, after waiting a period of time equal to how long it would take sound B to start and finish, sound C will occur 50% of the time. with inputs being A and outputs being (1, B, .5, C)?
 
@roobee That's another question that's a bit too vague to give a useful answer. E.g. a point in spacetime may be represented by some tuple of real coordinates in some coordinate chart, but it "really" is just a point in a manifold, which can be represented by many different tuples depending on the chosen chart.
 
Can also be represented by a symbol...like P
or by an emoji
like :P
oh snap, I just had a genius idea
translate all of math into emojis
 
@roobee Note that I said that a field is a function on space(time), so the inputs are always generalized "locations". You can of course decide to call every function a field, but what would be the point of that?
 
f'(x) ---> :O <3 (:P)
 
5:18 PM
@ACuriousMind So in order for a theory to not use fields, it would basically have to give up the concept of space, time, or both?
 
you don't need to give up the concepts of space or time to not use functions on them...
you can just have theories with strictly particle-particle interactions or some such
with no field to mediate those interactions
generally it's hard to make such theories local
but it ain't impossible afaik
 
5:48 PM
Project's going awesome. I've ordered some coin containers for cells.
How didn't I think of that before.
 
I had originally thought the below two theories had some fundamental difference. but upon contemplation I think that there only difference is that life experience shows one to work while the other doesn't. Is this accurate?

if there is a new material and you wish to judge it's toughness you could
1) Use theory A which says to determine how much it is imbued with earth via techniques like licking and smelling it. the more earth it is imbued with the tougher it is
2) Use structural analysis according to Newtonian Physics.
 
wat
 
so the two theories above use fields, so that is not what differentiates them fundamentally. I don't know what else would fundamentally differentiate them, so is the answer there is no fundamental difference? Only that one is right and the other is wrong learned by experience?
 
what...fields...
 
so an object imbued with earth could emanate an earth field within a short distance from it. When it interacts with your nose field or tongue field it would give a characteristic taste or smell. Or is the answer that the above is not conventially viewed as a field, and that the absence of using fields to describe things in theory A what fundamentally differentiates it from modern physics?
like i'm trying to learn about theories that seem to have very different foundations from modern physics, like theory A. And I know that they will not be as useful/accurate, otherwise they would be popular. But I do want to know what's the best they have to offer in terms of predictions, to see just how much worse the best of them are. So I originally asked about theories that don't use universal mechanism or fields, but apparently those words were vague or inaccurate.
 
6:11 PM
@ACuriousMind well $\Bbb R$ is a field and is pretty important for physics...
 
I feel like you're just adding the word "field"...to make it sound...cool?
 
@RyanUnger :P
 
mathematicians can fight us over the word "field"
don't worry fam, I got yo back
 
I won't attack physicists for bad terminology
 
@RyanUnger would u prefer a section
Also I'm pretty sure that "field" is older terminology than "section"
It's the math people who are wrong
 
6:15 PM
yes
 
Also field for physics probably predates for math
 
@enumaris I originally asked what theories don't use field. Curious said basically all theories use them. So I tried finding a different word that would get people mentioning the types of theories I would be interested in, and couldn't think of any.

If theory A indeed doesn't use a field, that's fine. I would then ask again what other theories don't use fields, especially what are the most successfull theories that don't use fields.
 
Point masses don't use fields
 
particle particle interactions and point masses still feel too similar to field theories to me but i'll take it. any more suggestions?
 
I mean what would you say is not like a field
I can cite you plenty of weird physics formalisms but you're gonna need to be more specific
 
6:25 PM
Standard Newtonian theory doesn't really use fields...it's just point interactions between particles or groups of particles...
 
There's a physics formalism that uses no number or function, if you want
 
but you can treat it using the formalism of fields if you want...
 
But it's fairly gruesome
 
^When a dude who works in GR says something is fairly gruesome you should trust him
 
Much worse than actual newtonian mechanics
 
6:26 PM
generally speaking
 
(It's based on synthetic geometry)
 
don't even know what that is
 
That's my difficulty. I'm not sure if I know specifically what differences I'm looking for. In general, I'm looking for theories that make me think "Oh gee. That seems like a fundamentally different view on physics.". I can think of examples that make me think that, and I've stated them. But I don't know what specific property they have that made me think that.

that synthetic geometry sounds potentially interesting
 
just cus something sounds fancy and complicated don't mean it's good tho
 
@enumaris think euclidian geometry
 
6:31 PM
well that's why i was interested in the most successful (in terms of predicting) of the weird theories, even knowing they wouldn't be as succesfull as modern physics.
 
@Slereah ok, I'm picturing a plane...
 
Well it's like
Instead of numbers and functions
You have relations between points in space and time
 
and those relations can't be described by numbers like distance and angles?
 
Well they can obviously
Since it's classical mechanics
But it doesn't have to
But it's not a good idea because it's stupidly hard to get any results
 
ok, so how would you describe the relation between two points? By sets of paths that join them or something?
 
6:34 PM
In euclidian geometry you may remember for instance, there's no concept of "that segment is 5 cm"
There's no numvers in euclidian geometry
 
oh
 
You can only say "that segment is as long as that segment"
 
so you're saying straightedge and compass stuff
 
Or "with this process, we can build a segment of the same length"
Yeah that's it
It's axiomatic stuff
 
but then can't you also say "this segment is n-times the length of that segment"...and then u got n, a number, there...
 
6:37 PM
@enumaris well not exactly
But you can have a process which, if you look at it, is just equivalent to "report the length of the segment 5 times"
Obviously it's equivalent to using numbers, otherwise it wouldn't be classical mechanics
 
actually, i think that's what i learned in geometry class in high school. we never used a coordinate plane or #s
 
you could presumably pick some line segment and declare it to have length 1, but that's an further assumption
 
Yes
That's basically it
 
(also there's the business of homogeneous coordinates, but you don't talk about distances in that case)
 
You use a standard segment
 
6:41 PM
sounds pretty contrived tho
 
It is
 
like making things hard for the sake of making thing hard
 
It was done for
 
"There exists a line segment with length 1."
 
philosiphical rzeasons
@Semiclassical i'm
 
6:42 PM
tbf, being careful about assumptions/premises is the raison d'etre of such people
 
One thing that has been irrationally frustrating me on SE is how many people seem to misunderstand Archimedes' Principle and assert that it must be true even with no fluid beneath the object, as if buoyancy is some magic force on it's own instead of just the net force due to pressure gradients.
 
I'm sure someone wrote a big paper on "The axiomatic equivalence of Euclidian geometry and analytic geometry" a long time ago
To prove that they were equivalent
Well, not Euclid, Hilbert's geometry
 
one thing I've wanted for a while was a more ''microscopic" view of Archimedes' principle (explanation incoming)
 
Ironically, the man who wrote the book on synthetic classical mechanics is called Mr. Field
Hartry Field
 
@Slereah ::sings:: Take me down to Isotropy City, where all is the same and no direction pretty
 
6:45 PM
Isotropi City, the city so nice they named it twice
Actually
You know what
I should write an article on that formalism on my site
Because the book is awful
There's no list of axioms
All the axioms are spread throughout the book
Damn philosophers
 
You can show that Archimedes' principle implies the following: If you have an ice cube floating in a glass of water, and it melts into the same kind of water (i.e. no difference in salinity etc) then the water level won't change.
 
Not only that but the axioms are written in english
and not in math
 
But when I say that, I always have the view that all the ice is replaced instantly with the correct amount of water.
 
@Semiclassical Archimedes' principle doesn't really imply that, if you account for density changes though.
 
right, that's why I was intending with salinity etc
(hence why melting freshwater ice in the ocean does cause it to rise)
 
6:49 PM
"Either $x_1 x_2$ Pos-Par $u_1 u_2$ and $y_1y_2$ Pos-Orient $v_1 v_2$, or $x_1 x_2$ Pos-Par $u_2 u_1$ and $y_1 y_2$ Pos-Orient $v_2 v_1$"
This is what happens when you give up numbers and functions
 
What I've wanted is a microscopic POV, i.e. why does a microscopic change in the volume of ice not result in a change of fluid volume
i guess maybe the way to look at it is that, if you split the ice in two, nothing should change either (as long as the system stays in equillibrium throughout)
 
@Semiclassical I haven't done the math... but couldn't the net density change when the system approaches equilibrium, even if it's all fresh water/ice?
 
hmm. i don't know.
 
Basically it's Euclidian geometry, but in addition to notions of congruences and perpendicularity, you also have notions of simultaneity, temporal congruence, congruence of other quantities, etc
Also I think you have some kind of time ordering
 
what's that called again? i remember seeing it while reading penrose at one point
 
6:53 PM
@Semiclassical I'm thinking it could, because the bonds change orientation pretty significantly around the 4°C mark, so if the phase change resulted in all the mixture going above 4 degrees, you should have the same mass taking up less space
 
i guess it's just the causal structure
 
yes
Although this is classical mechanics causal structure
So much easier
Events are either simultaneous, or one happens after the other
 
@JMac so would that mean: If you leave pure ice in pure water in a room temp above 0, wait around a while, and then come back once it's all melted, the fluid level won't have changed
 
That + temporal congruence basically gives you the notion of the time separating two events
 
but if you were to watch the fluid level throughout, it might increase for a time?
 
6:56 PM
@Semiclassical I think it might actually decrease by the time you come back, but yeah it might have a slight hump early on
 
but yeah, my point is
 
i'll have to pick this up later, got a meeting to go to
 
Just use classical mechanics :V
 
I don't want to be a downer, but usually there's a reason people don't use weird theories
You know
I got an idea
What if I made like
A decision chart
Of "What metric is that spacetime"
 
7:00 PM
well i wasn't planning on using the weird theories practically. more like i wanted to expand the way i think of the world
 
u decide the topology
the symmetries
The algebraic properties
The stress energy tensor
etc
and it gives you a known form (or not) of the metric
Oh and number of dimensions, too
mb causal class, too
I should start with dimension 1, that should cover it pretty quick
Dimension 2 is a bit more harsh but doable I think
at least for the singularity free ones
Trick question in dimension $1$ : Is the symmetry group of your manifold $\mathbb{R}$ or $S$
🤔
I guess a good way to organize it is like
Have a list of properties, that you can add in any order you wish
and each choice reduces the field
 
are you playing Twenty Questions with spacetimes? :P
 
ie if you pick a 2D compact manifold, it only offers you the torus and Klein bottle
@ACuriousMind Basically, yes
 
well actually i was wondering whether weird theories could help in areas that modern physics has weaknesses in (namely actually being able to compute a solution like for chaos theory or weather prediction), at the expense of generality. but i didn't put too much hope in that idea
 
@ACuriousMind or this, really
It's not a new idea :p
@roobee if you're worried about computability look up lattice theories
or like triangulations
The one for 1D manifolds should be easy because every question would lead to a binary choice
Hm
I wonder
How many topologies lead to the Schwarzschild solution, locally
I know there's a few
I guess overall any spherically symmetric manifold is a sphere bundle?
Locally $\Sigma \times S^2$
Doesn't really narrow it down a lot bc that's $\approx \omega$ manifolds
Wait, is it locally $\Sigma \times S^2$ or globally
I think Stephani says it's exactly that maybe
"If a group $G_r$ of motions of $r = \frac{1}{2}d(d+1)$ ($d > 1$) parameter has orbits of dimension $d$,the orbits admit orthogonal surfaces."
Does orthogonal surfaces imply locally a product?
 
7:23 PM
physics.stackexchange.com/questions/499354/… I love when people go around saying you're wrong but can't even remotely support it and then just brush it off because it's "boring"...
 
7:46 PM
@JMac That user tends to do that a lot. Argue against clear evidence and reasoning. oh well.
 
@AaronStevens Yeah, the topic of archimedes' principle and no fluid below is a bit of a raw spot for me on Stack Exchange. engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/19159/… The consensus on engineering SE is that you can apply it without thought in every situation, which I find pretty troubling, given that its so trivial to see that it comes directly from the fluid pressure
It's such a common misconception; but I really cant wrap my head around why people don't just do the analysis themselves. It's so easy
 
@JMac Yeah that is odd. If there is nothing below the object to push it upwards then where is that buoyant force coming from? There is nothing to cancel the pressure acting on the top. Certainly the ground isn't going to help you any more than it would if you tried to pick something up off of the ground in air.
 
@AaronStevens Yeah, exactly. There seems to be some weird popular idea that Archimedes' principle is just some isolated property related to density and volume; instead of just net force and pressure gradients put into a more digestible package
 
@JMac Perhaps its because it goes against normal experience. You typically don't have smooth objects and "pool surfaces" so that this effect could be observed. Once even the smallest part of the bottom edge allows for fluid to move underneath that edge then you get an upward force
@JMac But in "ideal land" this is totally reasonable and you cannot bring in an upward force from the fluid
 
@AaronStevens Yeah, I was writing a comment to that OP along those lines (I see you took a different tone of approach :P)
I feel bad for that OP, he has his teacher and random people online telling him to just apply it anywhere.
 
8:00 PM
@JMac Haha I just found it odd that they wanted to listen to a line of reasoning that others and the duplicate answer are saying is wrong. It reminded me of "trisectors": people who are still trying to find a way to trisect angles with just a straight edge and a compass even though it has been proven to be impossible
 
Similar to flat earth
 
@JMac You seen "Behind the Curve"?
 
@AaronStevens The problem is that the proof there is much more complex than the problem statement. Galois theory is very much outside the realm of intuition for most people, compass and straightedge are not.
 
how did we get to galois theory
 
@RyanUnger It's (surprisingly) what you use to prove (non)constructibility of figures via compass and straightedge
 
8:04 PM
thanks I took a Galois theory class as a part of my math degree...
 
Then why are you asking :P
 
@RyanUnger you don't need to scroll far
 
@ACuriousMind lazy
 
@RyanUnger Get shot in a duel
 
I appreciate that you were even too lazy to make that response a full sentence ;P
 
8:08 PM
lazy
 
@ACuriousMind That and the mistrust of mathematicians I suppose
 
To be fair. they are a sneaky bunch ;)
 
Heh, reminds me of the first time I encountered the lemma of rage
 
zorn?
 
8:12 PM
Zorn.
 
sounds like the name of a god of rage
 
@SirCumference It's German for "rage"
 
@SirCumference are you taking the undergrad dg this semester
i'm talking with the instructor now
 
@RyanUnger nope, don't have room for it in my schedule :/
besides I already took calc on manifolds which was a disappointment, so I guess I'll just wait till i take a grad class
 
he's doing geometry in this class
curves and surfaces
 
8:17 PM
@AaronStevens Behind the curve was great lol
 
@JMac I was feeling somewhat sympathetic for the most part. The main guy they were interviewing seemed really nice. And some of the people they were showing actually had very inquisitive and scientific minds (up until the point of completely disregarding their own evidence). But I got really frustrated near the end when they all praised a child (pre-teen maybe?) for being at the flat Earth convention.
Like believe what you want, but don't screw other people up with it
 
@ACuriousMind Did you become a constructivist afterward
 
@RyanUnger wait are you at my uni?
 
@Slereah no, I loved it
 
The real problem of math is infinite sets, not the axiom of choice
Just become a finitist
 
8:22 PM
@Slereah Is it ok if I believe in a finite number of infinite sets?
 
There is just one infinite set. It's called Bob.
 
@AaronStevens How many?
 
@Slereah Enough
 
I mean I think finitists are fine with $\mathbb{N}$
As long as you don't do sets with $\mathbb{N}$ inside
No power sets or what have you
 
@Slereah Is this an actual thing though?
 
8:29 PM
Well finitist set theory is equivalent to Peano's axioms
I think it's basically ZF without the axiom of power sets?
 
@Slereah I guess I just imagine people arguing over the rules they want to use for their mathematics. Which seems silly to me
 
@AaronStevens Welcome to the field of logic
 
@AaronStevens well who's to say what the correct rules are
 
@SirCumference That is what I am saying. From a mathematical point of view, there really isn't any correct set of rules. Only correct conclusions drawn from a particular choice of rules
 
ah, misunderstood you
 
8:35 PM
@SirCumference Now in terms of modeling reality, the choice of rules is very important
 
@AaronStevens sure
 
Although one of my physics professors would always talk about how he "went to go live on the complex plane".
 
@Slereah physicists should just adopt the terminology and notation that mathematicians use
 
@SirCumference Some of that stuff gets messy and hard to think about though
 
@AaronStevens does it tho
in Mathematics, Aug 25 at 19:32, by Leaky Nun
$\dfrac{\mathrm dz}{\mathrm dt} = \dfrac{\partial z}{\partial x} \dfrac{\mathrm dx}{\mathrm dt} + \dfrac{\partial z}{\partial y} \dfrac{\mathrm dy}{\mathrm dt}$ shows this exact problem
vs
in Mathematics, Aug 25 at 19:32, by Leaky Nun
$D(f \circ g) = D(f) \circ D(g)$ is so much nicer in aesthetic and rigour
i think the mathematicians win there
 
8:41 PM
what's the problem in the first one?
 
@enumaris there's nothing good about the fraction notation for derivatives
 
Leibniz has entered the chat
 
for early proto-calculus, yeah. but nowadays its just ugly and confusing to newcomers
 
@SirCumference Well we don't want those people in here :)
 
@AaronStevens well its also ugly for professionals :P
 
8:45 PM
@SirCumference I use the fake derivative as division thing all the time
Easiest way to remember the chain rule
Or the inverse function theorem
 
@Slereah yeah but come on, $D(f \circ g) = D(f) \circ D(g)$ is not difficult
and it doesn't require you to memorize different chain rules for multivariable, etc. functions
actually on second thought it seems way simpler. just tell students to "distribute the $D$" across $f \circ g$ to remember the rule
 
I'd like to see an example... let $f(x)=x^2+2$ and $g(x)=e^{-x/2}$ then calculate what $D(f\circ g)=D(f)\circ D(g)$ is
Let's see this notation in action
 
wait what's the difference between doing it with the other notation
unless you're writing out the rule explicitly in terms of $f$ and $g$ there's no difference
 
well I'd like to see it done once
oh wait the first one is a multi-variate chain rule
is the second one also...I can't even tell lol
 
the thing about the $D$ notation is you don't need to distinguish between multivariable and single variable chain rules :P
the notation is consistent, no extra symbols are added like $\partial$
 
8:55 PM
ok sure then
let's see it in action :D
 
see what in action?
 
given $h(x)=f(x)\circ g(x)$ compute $Dh$
and stick to that notation along the way
 
wait crap
wrote down the chain rule wrong
 
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