10:22 PM
@0celóñe7 Without the first panel it would almost not have been offensive.
@Mithrandir24601 I can wait.

@ACuriousMind how is the stuff after the first panel offensive

10:35 PM
@ACuriousMind Is there a way for me to tell what the RGB composition of a certain spot in a .png is?
I need to make the TeX color match my school's logo better than the standard dark orange

@0celóñe7 Image manipulation programs like GIMP should be able to tell you that. Possibly even Paint can do that

@ACuriousMind I thought Paint got deleted

I haven't used it in a decade, I wouldn't know

Seems my Windows 7 still has it, though

10:39 PM
@0celóñe7 Yeah, Paint can do that

is that close enough?

(I still have it on my Windows 10 laptop)

looks more like Texas orange
@rob "Black is not a color in our palette and should be avoided at all costs when designing university communications."
Uh, what?
Are they telling me I have to put math in dark gray

@0celóñe7 No, that's for lines in art.

@0celóñe7 RGB: 232, 133, 43 (for the orange at the top)

10:41 PM
@rob thanks for that page, I must have seen every other brand page on our website

Although, that page seems to have dark grey text. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

@Mithrandir24601 That is a somewhat meaningless distinction, IMHO.

@rob Gray LaTeX would be horrifying

@0celóñe7 For the orange at the bottom - RBG: 255, 130, 0

@Mithrandir24601 good, consistent with what the brand website says
now how to edit the colors in this thing...

10:43 PM
I would recommend not rejecting programming languages for aesthetic reasons. Each one has its advantages and disadvantages and it is in one's interest to respect those when choosing a language for any particular project.

@DanielSank What the orange at the top to the orange at the bottom? They're clearly different colours ;P

it looks...slighly off?

@DanielSank If you're talking to me, yeah, I'm sure python is a perfectly good scripting language...

Please explain what the difference is.

@0celóñe7 Yes, that still seems like a slight difference. Which color package are you using?

10:45 PM
@DanielSank Between scripting and non-scripting? or the colours?
(I'd assume it's the programming languages)

scripting/programming

@rob I don't know, I'm using a poster format I found on overleaf
It had everything I wanted except for colors/UT logos
I'm editing the orange in the .sty file now

@DanielSank First thing that comes to mind is that scripting is more commonly interpreted, non-scripting is more commonly compiled

So you're saying that python is a good interpreted language but not a good compiled one?

@DanielSank I don't really know of other interpreted languages to compare it to

10:47 PM
@0celóñe7 With xcolor, you can define both RGB colors and CMYK colors for the same name --- probably useful if you're planning to have your poster printed.

@rob CMYK?

That's not really the point though, is it? The original statement is that python is a scripting language and not a programming language. We're now translating that to a new sentence: "Python is a good interpreted language, but not a good compiled one".

there are no pictures here, just graphs and logos
I'm not too concerned with the color correctness

@0celóñe7 Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, blacK. Pigment colors, used by printers.

@rob Ugh. So this could be printed completely incorrectly?
Or will it be close?

10:50 PM
@0celóñe7 It would be close. But if the image file and your LaTeX orange came out of the printer slightly differently, it'd probably be because one specifies both RGB and CMYK while the other specifies one and relies on the printer to compute the other.

It's interesting in any case, because the distinction between interpreted and compiled is not so simple.
For example, Java runs in a virtual machine.

@0celóñe7 Monitors use an additive color scheme - RGB, starting from black and adding the three colors - while printers must use a subtractive color scheme CMYK: Starting from white and adding three colors (cyan, magenta, yellow) as well as black (called "key" for reasons unknown to me)

Where you're editing, what's the macro? Is it \definecolor?

That virtual machine can use a just-in-time compiler.
Is that interpreted or compiled? The words lose meaning here.

@DanielSank So, 'Python is a good interpreted language. I don't like it because I don't like having to use interpreted languages as they're slower than compiled ones and they offer less fine control over the less abstract processes'

10:51 PM
Similarly, python now has a just-in-time implementation called PyPy.

@DanielSank I also don't like Java :P

@Mithrandir24601 "Python is slow" is a sort of not-wrong statement, but also often an irrelevant one.

@rob I have no idea. Do you have an overleaf account?

A lot of what I do in python calls into compiled C libs. It's as fast as it needs to be.
Another thing that must be considered in choosing a language is how long you want to spend in development of your project, and how many bugs you'll have.
Compare C and Python in terms of security: In C, it's pretty easy to put buffer overflows into your program. In Python it's damned near impossible.
If I don't need the performance of C, I'll happily use python so that I can get the work done more correctly and more quickly.

@DanielSank For a lot of people, this is definitely true. I like the idea of being able to improve code to make it run faster at a more fundamental level so it's as efficient as possible

10:53 PM
@0celóñe7 I suddenly do, yes

@Mithrandir24601 If you're running numerics, that certainly makes sense.

@rob If I add you to this project you can look at it. Do you want to do that?

We have performance issues in our code all the time, but they're almost never caused by the Python interpreter.
It's usually a poorly constructed algorithm with some $N^2$ bit.

@DanielSank The converse of this is that I can run garbage collection myself so that in programs where exact timing (e.g. nuclear power plants, not that I've ever needed to worry about that) matter, it's better controlled in C/C++

@Mithrandir24601 Yes but look, you had to resort to a nuclear power plant to make that point.

10:56 PM
@0celóñe7 Sure. My account is associate with my gmail address.

@DanielSank Yeah, this is the CS in me coming out :P

Yes, one should not ever use python in a program needing precise timing, but you also shouldn't use any standard operating system in such a case either!

@rob Is it on your faculty page?

@DanielSank Also very true
Essentially, I think that all the issues I have with python stem from a small amount of time doing computer science, which worries about completely different things to programming in physics, or even programming in general

That makes sense.
So, what do you like?

11:00 PM
It's the little things: not as fast, not as good at parallelisation, I prefer more lower level control, I like to do my own garbage collection [in programming!], I don't like that it forces you to use whitespace in a particular way (when there are other, just as valid methods)
@DanielSank C++, ML

@0celóñe7 Hmmm, no, my faculty page seems to have work email only. Gmail identifier is my full name as spelled on my faculty page (dots are irrelevant).

@Mithrandir24601 Ok for the record, the fact that python forces whitespace is one of the main reasons it is so widely used.
Does anyone actually use ML for real work?

@DanielSank, yeah, the whitespace is part of why I like python. so much cleaner, no brackets/braces/etc - just spaces and colons.

@DanielSank This is the thing: all code should be readable - if it's not, it's not good code. Python forces one particular 'type' of whitespace, there are other 'types' of whitespace that are also good and that alone doesn't make good code, although I do get that it would be a good way to learn that whitespace is important
@DanielSank Most likely no

@Mithrandir24601 this guess might be quite off the mark, but is your first name George?

11:04 PM
@DanielSank Ocaml...

@heather There is a George, but nope

Why are we guessing @Mithrandir24601's name and what do I get if I win?

@DanielSank You already know my name, so... Nothing?

@Mithrandir24601 is it Joe, then?

@Mithrandir24601 The single most important thing in a language's style is consistency.
It doesn't matter if you like one way better than another. What matters is that everyone does the same thing.

11:05 PM
@heather You're clearly just going through the list of names on the website ;)

Python makes everyone do the same thing (to some extent).

Looks even more ugly than ML, but somehow strikes some useable compromises.

no, more than that - you said you started your PhD 11 months ago, i.e. in 2016, so i'm looking at the 2016 cohort. further, i looked at those in that group who graduated from Bristol and are male.
that leaves George and Joe.

The other thing Python got right was easy integration with C libs.
You want performance? No problem, link in a C lib. Done.

He already told us his name once

11:06 PM
@DanielSank Yes, I agree with this, but that's far too practical an issue for me to worry about :P

hahaha ok

Hint: He shares it with a character from Friends.

FWIW, I feel frustrated by python some times because of the lack of type safety.

@heather Ah. Since when did I say I did my undergrad in Bristol?

Oh, Phoebe!

11:07 PM
@rob Did that get to you?

@ACuriousMind Pheobe?

lol

@rob beat you

@rob If so, the colors are in the beamerthemeconfposter.sty file

> I then did a Master's in Mathematical physics and am now a physics (well, quantum engineering) PhD student at Bristol.

11:07 PM
@heather Hint - I'm not Joe either

Interesting that both of you picked the same female character? :P

implying you were a Master's student at Bristol.

@ACuriousMind Best character on the show.

@heather Does it? It's not supposed to... Sorry

@Mithrandir24601 np, i think i just misinterpreted it.

11:08 PM
@rob Not gonna deny that :)

@heather How does it imply that?

Now I've got "Smelly Cat" stuck in my ear again :P

@0celóñe7 I did _ and _ at Bristol.

@heather can't compute

@DanielSank Or y'know, just use C or C++ :)

11:10 PM
@0celóñe7 I was in class earlier (and have class again in twenty minutes). Is it still an issue, whatever it was?

@heather That can either be "I did ( _ and _ ) and Bristol" or "I did _ and ( _ at Bristol)".

@0celóñe7 Mithrandir used a sentence of the form "I did such-and-such and such-and-such at Bristol" making it sound like the at Bristol applied to the whole thing.

@heather Ah, it's a bracketing issue: did (x) and (y at Bristol)

Also by "the second chat" I assumed you meant physics meta but I wasn't sure.

@ACuriousMind right. I incorrectly interpreted it as the former.

11:10 PM
@Mithrandir24601 So, I switched to python when I realized that more than 99% of my programming time was spent writing the program, rather than waiting for the computation to run.
4
Now my workflow goes like this:

@rob shhhh :P

@dmckee Just one thing now. I'm writing a poster but don't want two lines for authors like in the templates the school gave me. Is one line: My Name, Professor (Faculty Advisor) ok?

@Mithrandir24601 I dunno, man. C is hard.

@DanielSank C++ though...

(1) have a question (2) bang out a crummy python solution (3) see if I can come up with a faster solution before my crappy program gives me the answer

11:11 PM
Better but still can be kinda hard.

C++ has changed a lot recently though.
@rob :-)

@0celóñe7 Unless that template is meant to provide a standardized appearance. Ask your advisor or someone else who's been around for a while.

that's the school's PPT template, but I'm making my own in TeX

@0celóñe7 You changed your name to Amy?

11:12 PM
@ACuriousMind I'm genderfluid
my name changes accordingly

wait @Mithrandir24601, I can't believe I didn't notice this. I should've checked by musical interests. Is your first name Ross?

@DanielSank This is fair - python is a better language for learning to program

@dmckee No, there's a bunch of examples and they're all slighly different
i was just wondering if I'm not making some STEM faux-pas
like math people have this weird thing where they refer to themselves in the third person by initials in talks

@heather Yes! If you ever find yourself in the UK, I owe you some tea. It would be something alcoholic (if you wanted) but you're underage

=D

11:14 PM
@Mithrandir24601 Oh, I would certainly advocate for learning to program in C.

Or hot chocolate. I have some good hot chocolate :)

@Mithrandir24601 I simultaneously strongly agree with and strongly disagree with that statement.

At the very beginning I think it's useful to understand that types are a thing, etc.
@dmckee Me too. In fact, I'm really not sure what I think.

@Mithrandir24601 Is UK drinking age 16 or 18?

I love python as a starter language for several reasons, but I also think it provides too much protection from hairy internals for someone to have 'learned to program' if they only speak python.

11:15 PM
I do think having learned the basics in C in high school was good for my understanding of how a computer actually works.

i think python does teach you types, just in a not-as-obvious way

@dmckee Fair enough I suppose - my first experience with python was a few years after learning to program, at which point I just looked at it and went 'no'
So I'm not the best person to ask about learning programming using python

@heather It may teach you what they are, but it rarely teaches you that they might matter

The one thing I really like about Python is that you don't have to learn to invoke a build system.

@rob also please keep a look out for where the title color is set. I want to change it to dark gray, that dark blue isn't right (I can't find the setting)

11:16 PM
Build systems are terrible and have repeatedly discouraged me from learning new languages.

@ACuriousMind Erm... I don't know...

ex, when taking a number as input, you have to do float(input("whatever"))

^ true

@ACuriousMind it does teach you that they matter ^
or converting lists to strings with ''.join()

@heather Ah, but they matter more rarely than in a staticly typed language

11:18 PM
@ACuriousMind 16 if accompanied by an adult, 18 otherwise

@Mithrandir24601 I learned to program decades ago, but I have used it as the language for a 'one weekend crunch course on the minimum you need to know'.

@ACuriousMind sure. but it tells you that they can matter and that they exist, which is what matters.

And it protects students from a lot on nonsense that lower-level languages throw in the way of the basics.

@ACuriousMind They certainly matter differently.

@dmckee Hmm... Fair enough

11:19 PM
At the cost of hiding some things they need to know eventually.

The thing is... understanding types helps you understand how to think about a program.

@Mithrandir24601 I see - I take it the adult must be my guardian and can not be my 18-year old friend?

Even when I'm writing Python I am thinking about "types" in the sense that I think about the interfaces in my code.
That's what a type really is, in the end, an interface.

@ACuriousMind From the government website: "if you’re 16 or 17 and accompanied by an adult, you can drink (but not buy) beer, wine or cider with a meal"

@DanielSank This is one of the things about Python that I like a lot. Duck typing.

11:21 PM
@rob Duck typing is fine, but not actually having type info in the language can be a huge pain. Imagine refactoring a large chunk of Python. How do you have any idea that you did it right without types to help you?
You only find out about mistakes in Python at runtime. This is really fantastically annoying.

I wrote several C++ programs where I had classes with similar interfaces that might should do the same thing, but there wasn't a logical reason for them to inherit from each other. Templating sort-of does this for C++, but it has its own issues.

It's annoying that I can run the Python interpreter on this:
def func(x):
return x**2

x = 4
y = funk(x)
print y

I vaguely remember a thing on QuTip(?) on Python earlier this year - I just felt the whole thing was so counter-intuitive :/

@Mithrandir24601 Don't blame the language for bad code.
I mean, come on, man... have you seen some C++ code?
TEMPLATES FOR EVERYONE

@Mithrandir24601 lol, I find Python the exact opposite of counter intuitive.

11:24 PM
@DanielSank I feel like ::runs away screaming:: is an appropriate response

Guys, it's not about the language there. If someone writes a crappy lib, that's their own fault.
@Mithrandir24601 Yeah exactly. You can write bad code in whatever language you want.

@DanielSank I've had that problem bite me. It's especially annoying when the typo is in some method that doesn't get called until late in a longish computation.

> an efficient scheme which is elegant in its simplicity has been proposed [2].
[2] is a citation of the authors' preprint on arXiv =P

@rob yep

@rob Found the title color. Should I do it in black or the UT dark gray?

11:34 PM
That's a really horrible thing about python IMHO.
The tooling is getting better, of course.

@0celóñe7 Oh, go for the grey.

Gray would look weird because then the text is black

@0celóñe7 If you want to go whole hog, you could set your text to dark grey and see how you feel about it
If the answer is "i feel icky", do it all in black

@rob gotcha

> Traceback (most recent call last):
File "python", line 5, in <module>
NameError: name 'funk' is not defined
are you saying that you don't like how you have to run it to have it break?

11:37 PM
@heather Well, imagine that instead of x=5 is a step that takes ten minutes to run, and that throwing the exception erases your newly-found value of x.

maybe I didn't find the right setting
this is a right PITA

@heather Yes.

@rob oh...i see what you mean.

I don't like that until very recently Python gave me absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that the code I wrote is even valid Python!
...until I try to run it!
That's terrible.

@DanielSank I'm uploading the video files, although it'll supposedly take 15 hours... If it's not done (or nearly done) by when I'm up in the morning, I'll try uploading it from work. With that, I'm off to bed - night all!

11:46 PM
@Mithrandir24601 Thanks!

@rob there doesn't appear to be a setting for the font color

@Mithrandir24601 good night =)

in fact, none of the actual color settings do anything
I set everything to yellow and nothing changed

@0celóñe7 It's the \setbeamercolor lines in main.tex that do it. I'm having trouble defining colors, though ... I think there's some mismatch between my LaTeX documentation and overleaf's LaTeX.

@rob No, those are for some parts, like the box colors. Font color should be controlled by the beamerthemeconfposter.sty file. I managed to change the title color there

11:50 PM
@0celóñe7 My time for playing with it is exhausted :-(