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12:00 AM
@Obliv Short-wave can bounce off the ionosphere. So you can listen to short-wave broadcasts from the other side of the world, when conditions are right.
 
12:15 AM
@PM2Ring that earns a chuckle
 
Clearly I'm not welcome here anymore. I don't think I'm going to come back here. I used to find this chat productive and I learned many things but I’ve felt some hostility recently (almost completely from naturallyInconsistent but also to a lesser extent someone else (/two people) who I don’t want to name).
In the later case, most of this comes from the nature of this chat mainly being hep-th meanwhile my interests are mostly in lower energy phenomenon and them interpreting all my statements in that context.
Anyways, those things aren’t important now
 
@DIRAC1930 you can click on their name and hit "ignore this user (everywhere)"
it's no ones fault, imo. Sometimes people just don't mesh well. I also apologize again if my jokes earlier offended you. You're welcome here in my eyes (And I'm guessing everyone elses)
 
12:31 AM
It wasn't you dont worry
 
This chat is mostly general physics. There is no lack of crystaliine physics questions. In fact, I brought my own copy of Ashcroft & Mermin from overseas because there were people asking about it here and also on the main site.
I mean, isn't the echo chamber right here with bolbteppa and the rude one entertaining your L&L fanboyism more than enough goodness for you to stay?
 
@DIRAC1930 Use the ignore button even I had to
 
 
1 hour later…
1:56 AM
Why is EM so confusing
and so uncoordinated..
JUST KIDDING
dimensional analysis is pretty handy
 
 
1 hour later…
3:27 AM
@DIRAC1930 bro I might come up as unfriendly sometimes but I didn't mean to offend. Also I often learn something from your questions on here
I don't usually say bro but I woke up feeling younger than I am
 
3:57 AM
Where does SR come from? I know it's motivated from maxwell's equations & gauge invariance or something
but like fundamentally, is it because we consider energy to be reducible to massless photons which are described by E and M fields
Since there is nothing more reducible than 0 mass, we say space has this fundamental limit which is the magnitude of the poynting vector?
 
@Obliv because it is very high complexity!
@Obliv no, it cannot be this. Like, there are also massless gluons and gravitons if you want to go that direction, and then you cannot explain why they must be massless
 
those have no EM fields?
how come they are restrained by SR then to have a speed limit?
if light, which is a propagation of E,M fields and 0 rest mass is inherently capped by the constants $\mu_0,\epsilon_0$.
 
@Obliv And that is precisely why it is much more natural to explore what are the theoretical implications of SR rather than the salient features.
 
4:17 AM
If we have a closed system with countable number of states/configuration and we have perfect information: we don't need an arbitrary parameter like time to "evolve" or keep track of the system per se. Is time mostly useful when we have incomplete information or an uncountably large number of states? Like why do we have time in physics in the first place
worrying about lorentz transformations & SR.. do we really need time
Yeah I guess if we don't know how the system is going to evolve, we need to discern states with some sort of index like time, and then consider it acting like in a positive direction
to describe the systems evolution/physics
I just want to jump into QM and uncertainty principles >_< but I should do this homework
 
@Obliv it would not help you with the above questions. Your questions are a bit too philosophical and might well not exist an answer to.
After all, attaining "perfect information" is impossible
 
we can approximate some systems to have near perfect information.
Like a coin with 2 states that changes by some law of physics we can fabricate
 
@DIRAC1930 QM or classically? It's just 1/2 \mu v_{rel}^2
Yelp just read the chat... ACM save us
 
Let $A = \{0,1\}$ be a set of two states and let $T = \{t\mid t \in \mathbb{R}=(-\infty,\infty)\}$. $A\times T = \{(0,t),(1,t')\}$ we can partition $T$ into two sets (if that works with $\mathbb{R}$ idk) and say $t \neq t'$ for all $t \in T$.
He's asleep, chaos is the moderator right now.
 
4:34 AM
Ohk ... Well if anyone wants me for anything feel free to ask ... I really think ppl are too hard on themselves ... Like this bunch of ppl haven't experienced failure ... I experienced for more than a decade of it
It's okay to be wrong imo
 
"Having all the answers just means that you've been asking boring questions."
 
@Obliv how is this supposed to be useful for eliminating the time variable?
@MoreAnonymous no, you are only considering kinetic energy.
@Obliv near perfect is not the same as perfect, by far. You need perfection to remove the time variable. But all real systems are actually open to environment and you cannot control that interaction to perfection.
 
It was just an example of a system which obeyed some law (what $t$ is).
Okay, new question. Do all particles/matter need to "communicate" with photons?
aside from theoretical things like dark matter. electrically neutral particles apparently don't
urgh, i need to understand gravitational waves, massless & neutral particles more
If I were a student from the late 1800s/early 1900s I'd probably think there was an aether that light traveled through but there isn't.
 
4:52 AM
As of right now, I do not know of any fundamental particle that does not have a magnetic dipole component, and thus they should all interact with photons, at least to some extremely weak degree. But of course you shouldnt take this into some random philosophical tangent.
 
looking at the standard model again, higgs apparently has 0 spin
so i guess wouldn't interact with photons
but it has mass
 
@DIRAC1930 Thanks
 
@naturallyInconsistent ah sorry I was thinking of my fav ideal gas scenario ...
 
@bolbteppa Looking back at this, asking a basic question to confirm with you: the fact that the $U(1)$s are commuting that implies that it is a "factor" in the subgroup, right?
 
5:07 AM
@MoreAnonymous The issue is that even in the ideal gas scenario, your result is still wrong. If you did statistical thermodynamics properly, they will teach you what the result actually is supposed to be.
 
@naturallyInconsistent interesting ... Do we include the hard ball potentials for turning points which is usually not mentioned?
Me trying to be me and guess this stuff
 
@MoreAnonymous When considering van der waals gases, it is common to cover the hard ball potentials.
 
@Sanjana can I ask what your working on?
(just curious ... Feel free to ignore)
 
I'm too sneepu but I will look more into the history of electron&atomic nucleus. I want to understand better the concept of mass for atomic/subatomic stuff. Also eventually how the standard model works.
 
@naturallyInconsistent yea ... I remember working on this ages ago ... And wondering how do I talk about a Lorentz invariant version of the hard ball potentials ... I did consider a 4 vector
 
5:13 AM
I feel like there should be negative mass for some reason
 
Nothing specifically.
It went like: studying string compactifications after ACM suggested Duff's article on $G_2$ holonomy but then to understand that I had to read complex geometry, got sidetracked by studying black hole microstate counting and mock modular forms and then heterotic string theory (most compactifications are based on these nowadays), and then to understand $E_8$ stuff, some group rep theory (mostly Dynkin diagram stuff), then a bit of GUTs, and now back to actual CY compactification...
 
@Sanjana I thought stochastic gravity was correct :(((
Are we studying math for the fun of it? And using physical intuition? Cool approach 😄
 
@MoreAnonymous How did you decide this??
 
@Obliv is it because you think you can define a molecule and the question becomes what is the potential relative to ?
 
It's mostly because I like symmetry and I thought maybe it'd make things more symmetrical :D
 
5:18 AM
@Sanjana I didn't ... But maybe I'm not imaginative enough to think of alternatives ... I think Einstein's musing of how much choice there was in choosing the laws of the universe is a deep one
@Obliv bah! Ppl don't get group theory in physics ... You can't just say I rotate an equilateral triangle by 60 degrees and get the same triangle ... You have to mention relative to what? The vaccine or the piece of paper etc etc
*vacuum
 
Relative to itself.. perfect continuous symmetry!
 
@Obliv I don't think that makes sense personally :/// if it were relative to itself it would be a sphere in spacetime and not something that moved with the particle
 
i think if the universe were truly symmetric then it'd be finite so idk if I'd want that
 
Okay now I have no clue what your on about
Is it like an ant on a circle?
 
@MoreAnonymous symmetry as in having continuous permutations/bijections that would leave it unchanged or whatever. Like $S_n$ in group theory
I didn't do topology yet so idk I guess lie groups for continuous version
like newton's 3rd law on steroids
 
5:28 AM
@MoreAnonymous We typically work in relative coördinates and thus do not have any problems with Lorentz invariance. If the ideal gas is so hot as to be relativistic, the usual equations are all wrong anyway. Hot to the point of relativistic means that pair production is possible, and then the conservation of number of particles approximation is violated.
 
@naturallyInconsistent fair point ... It's just confusing cause you have the relativistic kinetic part as well
 
I take back what I said about it having to be finite. That's just one option (which I don't think is true for philosophical reasons)
some people are finitists though.
 
@MoreAnonymous There is absolutely nothing confusing about that. If you replace the usual kinetic energy expression in the usual ideal gas integral with the SR counterpart, you just get a Bessel function. The results will resemble the Maxwell-Boltzmann (or what other case you choose to deal with) results for low temperature, but the high energy parts are all physically nonsense because, again, there must be QFT corrections to them.
 
That reminds me .. did we find what Taos statement meant from a computational point of view?
@naturallyInconsistent ah nice!
 
@Sanjana did u get to see if the fubini-study measure business helped your question on the page stuff :0
 
5:34 AM
@naturallyInconsistent you seem to be a boss at statistical physics :))) I had a pretty good stats teacher myself who had really good intuition ... Though I was surprised his area of research was actually DFT
 
@MoreAnonymous That is not at all surprising. To understand DFT one must first understand statistical thermodynamics well.
 
i feel like it should offer one avenue of directly computing the expected eigenvalues for a density matrix. but the computation might be unwieldy as you go higher and higher dimension--there is probably a slick way of doing the computation in general...
 
Also, I am not a boss at it. I just had a good prof.
 
@SillyGoose not much. But it is indeed on my list. I saw that book earlier somewhere but didn't give it a read. Now, I will...
 
@naturallyInconsistent we all did :)))
Usually I end up phrasing the problem in a way I think is intuitive ... I always have a contextual understanding relative to the problem I'm solving ..
I never have all the details worked out and am not really that quick on my feet ... Especially while world view hopping
 
5:40 AM
@MoreAnonymous That cannot be the case. Quite many people are not so fortunate. Otherwise, everybody should already be quite good at stat therm and there wont be so many questions on the topic.
 
@naturallyInconsistent true ... But even the best teachers will pale in front of the lessons of life ... I never went to an Ivy League college .. I was thought of as a joke by most profs and I was treated rather unkindly but I still believe in my potential and the importance of having gratitude to whomever tried to.give you their time
Not trying to pick a bone fyi
@naturallyInconsistent doesn't your QFT considerations naturally have infinite particles? I'm not sure how Obliv is thinkjng about the problem though
(just a thought ^ )
From here: MoreAnonymous There is absolutely nothing confusing about that. If you replace the usual kinetic energy expression in the usual ideal gas integral with the SR counterpart, you just get a Bessel function. The results will resemble the Maxwell-Boltzmann (or what other case you choose to deal with) results for low temperature, but the high energy parts are all physically nonsense because, again, there must be QFT corrections to them.
 
@MoreAnonymous the expected value can still be finite.
 
@naturallyInconsistent yes but Obliv was saying something about there being infinite particles for philosophical reasons? pS I don't have full.context
 
The infinite number of particles contribution to the state can be negligible, is what I think is possible.
@MoreAnonymous I dont know what the problem is? Infinite number of particles or not, the physics is perfectly fine.
 
@MoreAnonymous you'll find that a good deal of students at ivy leagues are not the type of person one would want to be ;)
 
5:49 AM
@naturallyInconsistent that may or may not be true in a non pertubative theory
@SillyGoose just don't be a crackpot ;p
 
just like at any other uni, though...
 
Jk
@SillyGoose it is hard to go the solo way I went
 
one's own way can pay off :D
it seems more fulfilling to fail doing one's own thing then to do exactly as others do
or you can do the latter until it's safe enough to start doing your own thing with impunity...
 
6:05 AM
@MoreAnonymous I did not.
The only teachers I had were book authors
 
@nickbros123 are book authors bad?! :O
 
@nickbros123 hugs
 
@naturallyInconsistent is "consistentlyNatural" your antiparticle?
Or is that "artificiallyConsistent"?
 
@Mr.Feynman it probably is. miao miao dont dare to try. That is one curiosity that wont be killing this kitten
@Mr.Feynman nah, this one is too tame
 
If you meet somebody offering their left hand, flee
 
6:17 AM
is there a birac?
4
 
@Mr.Feynman my gym trainers are...
hahahaha
 
@SillyGoose is your username related to Abstruse Goose?
 
i dont think so :0
 
Yeah, this is my Ryder morning
 
When Jacques Chirac became the French president, miao miao was still a wee lad
@Mr.Feynman not anywhere near rude enough, miao sees
@Mr.Feynman His comics were so fun
 
6:20 AM
I have no idea how old you are, my guess is between 25 and 60
 
@Mr.Feynman i feel like you are taking the first standard deviation of ages here lol
 
I would say you're in your early 30s but since you talk about being a lad as a far removed past
 
@Mr.Feynman it would be difficult for such a bad entropy guess to be wrong.
@Mr.Feynman ouchies
 
See? I'm an excellent experimentalist
By the way, it's kind of ironic for me to say it, since I'm 23 and I keep saying my youth has ended
 
lol
but no, im hurt by that, and now imma go get lunch instead
 
6:26 AM
You can't, it's 8am!
 
well naturally has done a physics phd and worked after so i feel like you must be at least 30 but probably 35
 
Mhhh I don't remember him saying he did a PhD though
Are you sure about that piece of information?
 
i thought he did a post doc of sorts
hmmm
i can def be wrong...
 
@SillyGoose I dont have a PhD. My friends have, but my academic journey is far worse than theirs.
 
@naturallyInconsistent speak!!!
What a bad timing...
 
6:28 AM
I certainly have a permanent head damage, though, so it is only up to certification.
 
i saeeeee
 
opportunities are scarce resources, yall. Grab them when you can.
and why must you hertz meow so...
 
7:07 AM
In the Lorenz gauge, the Maxwell equations take the form $\partial_\alpha \partial^\alpha A^\mu = 0$. Isn't this just the canonical wave equation?
butt even in other choices of gauge, we can obtain the wave equation. so does the Lorenz gauge just make it more obvious?
 
7:28 AM
@SillyGoose How do we obtain the wave equation in other gauges?
 
Oh hm. I guess I conflated the potentials with the fields…so in the Lorenz gauge the electromagentic potential happens to satisfy a wave equation
 
I also think so. Btw I derived a covariant form of wave equation involving field strengths using Maxwell's equations (including Bianchi identity), and it looked like $ \Box F_{\mu \nu}=0$ without sources.
Taking a partial of the Bianchi identity and using $\partial^\mu F_{\mu \nu}=0$ along with antisymmetry of $F_{\mu \nu}$ specifically. This is valid in all gauges.
 
neat :D
i guess the Lorenz gauge makes it immediately clear that an electromagnetic potential satisfying the Maxwell's corresponds to an electromagnetic field satisfying the wave equation that you write since if $\square A^\mu = 0$, then $\square (\partial_\nu A_\mu) = \partial_\nu (\square A_\mu) = 0$
maybe this is true of other gauge choices...
 
Here's something that was bothering me in 2 dimensions (feel fre to ignore
So here's something I've been pondering about.

A Lagrangian is of the form:

$$ L = \int_0^c ((\vec \nabla \cdot \vec s(|t|) - 4k) d |t|$$

Then the integer part of $k$ is the number of circles one goes about upon minization?
 
123
7:48 AM
Hello Everyone..
Pls see the equations of 1st page and read the 5th line from the last of 2nd page. Is says "This results is true for any system of particles, not just for those fixed in a rigid objects, as long as the forces between the particles obey Newton's third law."
My question is that if N2L also applicable when system of particle do not interact each other. If system of particles do not interact each then there will be no use of N3L between particles of system. So in this way the above equation can also be possible in a scenario to center of mass of translational motion like.
Suppose my system has 3 particles with different masses "$m_1 \neq m_2 \neq m_3$" with no interaction between them. I calculated CoM of the system "$R$" with respect to some inertial coordinate system. and applied three different external forces on each particle separately in such a way that direction of all three forces are same but magnitude will be set such that acceleration of each mass will be same $a_1 = a_2 = a_3 = a$.
So my system will also behave same way as mentioned in book. Does in such situation the i can apply above equation?
 
8:18 AM
@SillyGoose I'm not sure what you mean but the Lorenz gauge is precisely the gauge in which the EoM of the potential (in vacuum) become wave equations
 
@Mr.Feynman he later admitted that he conflated the potentials for the fields
 
 
1 hour later…
9:27 AM
@Mr.Feynman i was just making the observation (after realizing what naturally stated) that the Lorenz gauge makes it especially clear that the corresponding EM field also satisfies a wave equation
 
9:56 AM
Can we call the spacetime Poincaré symmetry an internal symmetry of the Polyakov action? Because e.g. a translation changes the parametrizations which are the "fields"
 
For the Polyakov action the Minkowski space is the target space
So I guess you can yeah
 
 
1 hour later…
10:59 AM
@Slereah what is a target space?
 
@Mr.Feynman another name for the codomain of a map
 
@Mr.Feynman Physical theories have two spaces for their configuration space
You have the parameter space, which is the source, and the target space, which is the target
A configuration is a map $f : \mathrm{Param} \to \mathrm{Targ}$
For a field theory, the parameter space is the spacetime, and the target space is a bundle
For a theory of objects, the parameter space is some shape and the target space is the spacetime
 
Making a parallel with QFT: in that case Minkowski is the parameter space and classical fields are the target space, right?
 
yeah
 
11:44 AM
in QM, time is the parameter space and space is the targe space
i mean QM viewed as a qft
 
So whats up here
 
suppose say we take a theory with proper time as parameter space and space-time as target space
and the action is the relativistic free particle action
my question : what does the feynman propagator correspond to in this theory
 
12:49 PM
hegel? o.0
 
1:39 PM
@SillyGoose how is hegel related to this
 
"two masters" sounded like it could be a hegel reference
 
1:53 PM
Also read this ... Is it a good idea for a supervisor to show his struggles?
 
i wonder if the more senior physicist mentioned is Hagen
 
2:07 PM
@MoreAnonymous i would prefer such a dynamic
but i think what one wants in an advisor is quite personal
for me openness is what breeds communication is what breeds new, useful ideas
 
Hmmm fair
 
sometimes you got to spitball 100 crazy or wrong ideas to get to one decent one :P--unless you're dirac...or something
 
2:44 PM
Dirac was obviously an epic legend
 
 
2 hours later…
4:24 PM
what the heck...the set of unitary operators can be linearly spanned by a basis...!!??
the beng & zyc book just keeps on giving...
 
@SillyGoose you're 100% misreading whatever you got that from
 
well there seem to be special cases for which it is true, but i am still reading through the latter half of the document
but i also probably am misreading...
 
What would the linear span mean? Like, if you just want to parametrise them, then consider the case of spin half. The Pauli matrices with the identity matrix form a basis for the Hermitian matrices for the su(2) space, and by exponentiation you can parametrise the entire SU(2) unitary matrix space.
If you really want it to be linear, then I think ACM's confident tone means that it is simply not possible.
 
4:48 PM
hm well the papers that the note cites seem to be constructing a basis for a hilbert space or algebra such that the basis elements are unitary. but the note seems to be talking about a basis for unitary operators suc h that the basis elements are unitary.
 
That does not seem to make sense. The linear combination of unitary matrices is not necessarily unitary
 
Right
 
@SillyGoose The claim here is entirely different: That you can choose a basis of n-by-n matrices such that every basis matrix is unitary.
This then implies that you can also express every unitary n-by-n matrix as a sum of the matrices in that basis
but it doesn't imply that "the set of unitary operators can be linearly spanned by a basis"
 
5:03 PM
Hm i see
 
Intuitive reason why in the mode expansion of the solution of Polyakov EoM we include a term linear in $\tau$?
 
@Mr.Feynman it's the center-of-mass motion of the string
 
That I can show via the Noether theorem but why would I have a parameter dependent zero mode in principle?
 
I don't understand the question
you're solving the equation of motion of the free string
so there's gonna be a term in there that corresponds to the straight-line motion of the c.o.m. of the string
 
123
Hello Everyone...
 
5:14 PM
If I have a mode expansion $$\sum_{n\in\mathbb{Z}}\alpha_n \mathrm{e}^{-in\sigma}=\alpha_0+\sum_{n\neq0}\alpha_n\mathrm{e}^{-in\sigma}$$
So we're saying that $\alpha_0\sim x+p\tau$ comes from the EoM
Mhhh the expansion is only wrt $\sigma$
 
@Mr.Feynman where did the negative n go?
 
I used relative numbers
 
123
5:29 PM
 
Oh sorry, in Eng they're called just integers $\mathbb{Z}$
 
123
I don't understand this above equation of work-energy theorem. How integral evaluate and limit change from position to time.
Pls help me in understanding this.
If force is a function of position. why knk wrote acceleration as function of time $\frac{d^2x}{dt^2}$ in relation $F(x) dx = m \frac{d^2x}{dt^2}$ or $F(x) dx = m \frac{dv}{dt}$
 
@ACuriousMind let me say it this way: why is it that, once we expanded in Fourier modes the zero mode is the CoM motion? Mathematically
It wasn't a priori obvious to me
 
@Mr.Feynman everything else is oscillatory, leaving you with only the zero mode as being able to exhibit N1L motion?
 
@Mr.Feynman you're not really "expanding in Fourier modes"
just like the normal KG mode expansion isn't a Fourier transform
you're just making an expansion that's nice for the particular problem you work on
you have the Fourier modes corresponding to oscillations of the string, and you have the c.o.m motion
 
5:44 PM
@123 $dx = \frac{dx}{dt}dt = vdt$ is a change of variables (jacobian in multiple coordinates)
 
123
@Obliv Okay. It means in this step they changed variable from as function of "x" to as function of "t"
What they did in the next step?
 
they pulled out the mass since it doesn't change, then integrated with the new coordinates.
$\int F(x)dx \to m\int \frac{dv}{dt}vdt = m\int vdv$
 
123
$m \int_{t_a}^{t_b} \frac{d}{dt}\left(\frac{1}{2}v^2\right) dt$
What he did in the above step.
 
oh wait yeah I guess he took the antiderivative of $v$
 
123
I can understand he used above identity in this step. But how he evaluate the next step.
 
5:52 PM
and cancelled the dts
$\frac{dv}{dt}v = \frac{d}{dt}\frac{v^2}{2}$
 
123
@Obliv It means he differentiate and integrate with to "t" cancels each other.
 
Hm, in this video clip, a few white pixels caused by radiation start appearing when the waste drum is taken out of storage.
 
123
@Obliv But the limit are time. How can he used time limit put in the velocity. But here velocity is a function of position. Which he said in below text of the equation.
 
With a different camera closer to the drum, I can even see tracks of the Compton electrons.
not as fascinating as a cloud chamber, but still
 
@ACuriousMind the COM motion is the zero mode of the Fourier expansion though no?
 
123
5:56 PM
I don't understand in the above relations velocity is taken as function of position "x" or as a function of time "t"
 
By zero mode I mean the one with zero frequency
 
@123 $\int_{x_1}^{x_2}F(x)dx = \int_{t_1}^{t_2}F(t)\frac{dx}{dt}dt$
we "parametrize" $x,v,a,F$ all by $t$
 
123
@Obliv You are right in this way. But for KE we always take force as a function of position "$F(x)$"
 
@lucabtz it's related to it, but the reason Mr. Feynman asks is precisely because in a straightforward Fourier expansion you would not get the linear dependence on time
 
123
@Obliv Ooooh okay...
 
6:00 PM
did you take calculus before this class btw? Sometimes seeing the math by itself first is helpful
 
123
@Obliv But knk says here velocity is taken as a function of position "$x$". few line above this text he shows $s(x) \equiv s(t)$ , $v(x) \equiv v(t)$ etc.. Why?
 
@ACuriousMind yeah I guess you have to use the EOMs at some point? As @Mr.Feynman was saying later
 
123
@Obliv Yes i did calculus a lot. Because change of variable is not very much clear in these equations.
 
But intuitively the zero mode of a Fourier expansion is always the total translation then EOMs tell you that the translation is the COM motion I guess
Anyhow it can also be seen as a nice parametrization which realizes the Heisenberg algebra i guess
 
@123 $v$ depends on $x$ which depends on $t$ if we parametrize by $t$.
 
6:04 PM
In CFT it is called the Feigin Fuchs free field parametrization
 
123
@Obliv Why they put time limits in place of velocity?
@Obliv Can you pls solve this Work-Energy theorem in your own way. Or share any link. But which clearly shows parametrization.
 
I don't like your txtbooks notation tbh. The first two equations $F(x) = m\frac{d^2x}{dt^2} = m\frac{dv}{dt}$
Maybe related, but I was trying to figure this out when starting classical mech @123
 
123
@Obliv I have consult knk, symon and taylor classical mechanics books. But still not clear understanding.
 
Okay, let's start with position, velocity, acceleration, which are all functions of time $x(t),v(t),a(t)$ and are related by $a(t) = \frac{d}{dt}v(t) = \frac{d^2}{dt^2}x(t)$
Force is just $F(t) = ma(t)$
 
123
Okay
 
6:17 PM
Integrate with respect to $t$ we have $\int_{t_1}^{t_2} F(t) = m\int_{t_1}^{t_2}\frac{d}{dt}v(t)=m\int_{t_1}^{t_2}\frac{d^2}{dt^2}x(t)$
those just follow directly by the relations
 
123
Book always emphasized in doing Work-Energy theorem force always as a function of position "$F(x)$"
There is no problem in solving force as a function of time "$F(t)$", problem arise when solving force as a function of position "$F(x)$"
 
$m\int_{t_1}^{t_2}\frac{d^2 x(t)}{dt^2} = m[v(t_2)-v(t_1)]$
that's w.r.t time
When we integrate w.r.t. position we have $$\int_{x_1}^{x_2}F(t) = m\int_{x_1}^{x_2}\frac{d^2 x}{dt^2} = m\int_{x_1}^{x_2}\frac{dx}{dt}\frac{dx}{dt}=m\int_{x_1}^{x_2}\frac{dx}{dt}\frac{1}{dt}dx$$
$$ = m\int_{x_1}^{x_2}\frac{dx}{dt}\frac{1}{dt}\frac{dx}{dt}dt$$
because $dx = \frac{dx}{dt}dt$
wait hold up
 
123
@Obliv What you did in third step in this. From where extra $dx$ comes because previous double derivative
 
yeah that 3rd step is wrong lol
I was just trying to simplify it as much as possible
 
what are you even trying to do?
 
6:25 PM
trying to break down the steps in the work energy theorem
 
123
@ACuriousMind Hello. Pls help me in solving the equation force as a function of position $F(x)$. Where position, velocity, acceleration parametrization is not defined.
 
@123 I have no idea what you're asking me
 
@123 should be $\frac{d}{dt}v$
so $\frac{d}{dt}\frac{dx}{dt}$
 
123
 
what equation are you trying to solve? What does it mean for "position, velocity, acceleration parametrization" to "not be defined"?
 
123
6:27 PM
 
reposting the same two images you already posted does not make your question any clearer to me :P
 
123
@ACuriousMind Pls see these knk pictures. where it $F(x)$ force is a function of position.
but i don't understand velocity is a function of position or time. Because knk said velocity is taken as a function of position. but he is putting limit of time in the place of velocity. Why?
 
I don't know what you mean by "he is putting limit of time in the place of velocity"
 
123
My confusion is that If "$F(x)$" then acceleration will be $a(x)$ or $a(t)$ similarly velocity $v(x)$ or $v(t)$ and displacement $s(x)$ or $s(x)$
 
I really can't tell what you're trying to say, but when you have a trajectory $x(t)$ then you can express any function $F(x)$ also as a function $F(t) = F(x(t))$
conversely at least locally you can invert the trajectory to get a $t(x)$ to express functions of time as functions of position
 
123
6:34 PM
@ACuriousMind Aaaaah.. I see
 
@123 The integral w.r.t position is different from time. $$\int v dv \neq \int adt$$
 
123
Now i marked the steps where limit changed, and tick mark step where limit is time but he put this time limit in place of velocity.
 
I still don't know what you mean by "put this time limit in place of velocity"
 
what's wrong with changing the limits? $dx = \frac{dx}{dt}dt$ means you can integrate w.r.t. position or integrate w.r.t. time * velocity
 
the integration variable changes from position to time, not from velocity to time
so where would time be "put in place of velocity"?
 
123
6:38 PM
@ACuriousMind Pls clear me. How force as a function of time equal force as function of position $F(t) = F(x(t))$. In my sense both should be different.
 
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question
 
123
@ACuriousMind You wrote above $F(t) = F(x(t))$. How they equal?
 
the r.h.s. is the definition of the l.h.s.
 
@123 read what I wrote bro. $\int vdv$ is what you use for work energy theorem. To get this you change variables from $dx$ to $vdt$ by $dx = \frac{dx}{dt}dt$
 
$F(t)$ is just a shorthand for $F(x(t))$
it's just plugging functions into each other
if you're reading a text that expects you to be familiar with the chain rule, you should not have any problem with this concept
 
123
6:41 PM
@ACuriousMind What i am perceiving from this force after 1 sec if "F(t)" not equal force after 1m travel "F(x(t))".
 
@123 it is if you've travelled that 1m in that 1 second
 
123
@ACuriousMind Then both should be equal. But i think this case will be very special not general.
 
@123 again, by definition $F(t) = F(x(t))$, they cannot be unequal
e.g. let's say you have a force $F(x) = x^2$. Then for a straight line $x(t) = vt$ we have $F(t) = F(x(t)) = v^2 t^2$
 
123
@ACuriousMind Yes
 
there's nothing here that could be inconsistent, it's just plugging in the definition
 
6:44 PM
@ACuriousMind ok, I'll think about this but what you said about KG kinda confused me :P
 
$y(x) = mx$ but if $x(t) = t^2$ then $y(t) = mt^2$ if we integrate $\int y(x)dx$ we have $\frac{mx^2}{2}+C=m\frac{t^4}{2}+C$ but that's different from $\int y(t) dt = \frac{mt^3}{3}+C = m\frac{x^{3/2}}{3}+C$
 
@Obliv ...which is why when you change variables in an integral you have to include that $\frac{\mathrm{d}x}{\mathrm{d}t}$ factor!
 
123
@ACuriousMind But in this case $F(x) = 1^2 = 1N$ and $F(t) = v^2 (1)^2 = v^2N$ here $v^2$ is multiplying. How can $F(x) = F(t)$ in your example. Pls explain or give me hint.
 
@123 I don't see what the problem is supposed to be
 
6:48 PM
FURTHERMORE, if we use the change of variables then $\int y(x) dx$ becomes $\int y(x)\frac{dx}{dt}dt = \int 2ty(x)dt$ hehe
 
Of course $F(x)$ at $x=1$ will not be the same as $F(t) = F(x(t))$ at $t=1$
no one is claiming it would be
 
those should be the same.
 
123
@ACuriousMind Aaaaaah.... I seeeeeeeeeee... Now i understand what you are trying to tell me when you are saying $F(t) = F(x(t))$
Let say $F(t) = t^2$ and $F(x(t)) = x(t) = t^2$ then both equals $F(t) = F(x(t))$
 
$F(x) = x$ in that situation
 
123
@Obliv Yes
ACM isn't it the very limited and special case.
 
6:53 PM
No
 
no, this is not a "special case" at all
 
I just showed an example above
 
you have given a $F(x)$ and an $x(t)$
you plug the latter into the former to get an $F(t) = F(x(t))$
 
@123 take $x(t) = t^2$ and $F(x) = x^2$
 
123
@ACuriousMind To be both equal then $F(x(t))$ should equal to $x$.
 
6:54 PM
there's no accident here, the $F(t)$ doesn't exist separately and "happens" to be equal to $F(x(t))$, it's defined to be
@123 ...no?
just because it's like that in your example doesn't mean it always has to be
 
123
@ACuriousMind Can you pls give me another example other than $F(x(t)) = x$
 
I already did!
 
$F(x) = x^2 = (t^2)^2 = t^4 = (t^2)^2= F(t^2)=F(x(t))$
 
12 mins ago, by ACuriousMind
e.g. let's say you have a force $F(x) = x^2$. Then for a straight line $x(t) = vt$ we have $F(t) = F(x(t)) = v^2 t^2$
literally the first example I gave had a different form
 
123
@Obliv Here $F(t^2)$ not $F(t)$. Can we take this way?
@ACuriousMind Yes you gave me that example. I am newbie and take some time to understand. Pls let me think again your example.
 
6:59 PM
I feel like you understand the necessary math but are hung up on notation @123
Perhaps taking a break might help (diffusive thought)
 
you've been coming into this chat for almost four years, that's not newbie status anymore :P
 
123
@ACuriousMind ;P Yes you are right. Thanks to all of you make me better and better in physics. When i found no answer from books, threads, self thinking etc. then i wrote here.
What i think until i properly understand all the basic ideas of newtonian mechanics i can never fully understand LM, HM, QM etc.. Because the same concepts used there with different ideas and experiments. But basics are same.
@Obliv Nice example
 
7:19 PM
@ACuriousMind oh alright, you meant that the coefficients are linear combinations of FT, ok
 
Anyone know what i'm doing wrong? For an EM question: When $R\ll z$, $(R^2+z^2)^{3/2} = R^{3}(1+\frac{z^2}{R^2})^{3/2} \approx R^3(1 + \frac{3z^2}{2R^2})$ so $$\frac{\mu_0 I}{2}\frac{R^2}{(R^2+z^2)^{3/2}}\approx\frac{\mu_0 IR^2}{2R^3(1+\frac{3}{2}\left(\frac{z}{R}\right)^2)}=\frac{\mu_0 I}{2R(1+\frac{3}{2}\left(\frac{z}{R}\right)^2)}=\frac{\mu_0 I}{2R+3\frac{z^2}{R}}$$
 
@Obliv when R < z you cannot extract R. You must always extract the bigger quantity. Binomial expansion is only valid if you expand the smaller thing.
 
Oh okay so i have to extract the $z$ so $(R^2+z^2)^{3/2} = z^3(\left(\frac{R}{z}\right)^2+1)^{3/2}$
I got a messier expression now :\
$\frac{\mu_0 I}{2}\frac{R^2}{(R^2+z^2)^{3/2}}\approx\frac{\mu_0 IR^2}{2z^3(1+\frac{3}{2}\left(\frac{R}{z}\right)^2)}$
 
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