The h Bar

imbAF

04:27

@ACuriousMind If an electron would have been in an electric potential, wouldn't the potential have been a coulomb one? Here, in my exercise the electron has a harmonic potential V=1/2kx^2

123

04:52

Hello Everyone...

John Rennie

05:03

@imbAF You could have a setup like this:

For x ≪ a we get the force on the electron proportional to -x so that would be a harmonic potential.

qwerty

05:37

@ACuriousMind just had a quick glance. given that it's an old paper, I would guess it's probably sufficiently well-known in their particular field that they didn't feel to go into more details. He also did mention the non-Noetherian symmetries in his lectures, but it wasn't clear that bringing up a further concept would have made our discussion any clearer... although I'm not sure he did say that you can generate all possible Lagrangians by applying the non-Noetherian symmetries.

did you figure out how this fits in qmechanic's answer about the uniqueness of the Lagrangian?

Ryder Rude

06:19

hi

123

06:37

Hi @RyderRude

No question today. I am checking yesterday discussion today. Like LOM , dependency etc...

123

07:36

I have tested law of momentum. But it shows negative 1 by multiplication of three constants.

It is not +1

Hi @Arjun

Ryder Rude

@123 hi

@123 it is 1

1/2 x 3 x 3/2 = 1

123

By multiplication of all three equations on both sides. We give -1

Ryder Rude

k12 is -1 times the ratio of accelerations

this is y the book said k is always positive

so for the first experiment, k12= -(-1/2)=1/2

and similarly for the other two @123

123

Oops... i have work to go to repair gas chromatograph in refinery.

Sorry my friend. I will be after 3 to 4 hours. Really really sorry. I wanted to discuss this.

Ryder Rude

ok.. we will discuss later

123

07:49

Thanks a lot

Ryder Rude

@123 really cool

123

: )

Ryder Rude

if any paper is restricted, u can check its paper code and enter it here

there is a unique address that each paper has

123

@RyderRude Ooh. Thanks. Now i have 1 hour.

Ryder Rude

ok :)

123

07:57

I am a service Engineer of laboratory equipment having more than 15 years of experience AL-HAMD-U-LILLAH

My task is the installation commissioning, method development, trouble and maintenance of equipments.

During this period i have worked with a lot of equipment's.

Ryder Rude

oh

123

Ion Chromatography, HPLC, Gas Chromatography, Potentiometric Titration, Voltammetry, Oxidation Stability, UV-Vis Spectroscopy, RAMAN Spec, Atomic Absorption, ICP-MS/OES

Density meters, Viscosity meters, O2, and a lot.

Ryder Rude

so this may be why u r also interested in physics

123

Yes exactly.

Ryder Rude

do u work with dangerous things

Mr. Feynman

08:01

@SirCumference I had to check some QM books yesterday and I thought I hadn't checked Townsend yet, but eventually I feel asleep. As it usually happens, I dreamed of that, but I wanted to let you know that somehow your hatred towards that book was something that I remembered even in the dream

123

I had a trainings with manufacturer. How to operate repair instruments.

Like in this year in April i was in Switzerland for training

Ryder Rude

oh

@123 idk what these equipments do exactly

whom do u supply these to

123

But from my education period i was very enthusiastic about physics. Which tease me in understanding. But i wanted to understand. But in my country level of education is very very bad. I found no teacher who made my concept clear.

Ryder Rude

oh

123

@RyderRude Some of the equipment from manufacturer of USA, some Austria/Germany, some from Switzerland

Ryder Rude

08:05

it is hard to get good physics education

@123 and who are ur clients

like u sell these

123

@RyderRude Yes... But my love about physics still remains the even after completed the education.

Ryder Rude

maybe research facilities

@123 physics is really interesting

123

@RyderRude Our clients are pharmaceutical , Refineries, beverages, polymer, food almost every industry required these equipments in their lab

Ryder Rude

@123 oh. They may require it for food safety experiments

and also medicine safety

123

Not for safety.

Ryder Rude

08:07

like quality check

123

They needed to check the quality

@RyderRude Yes

Ryder Rude

yes, that's what i meant :P

what is the coolest equipment

123

I love to work with all these

Recently i have installed Rheometer in the research university.

Because every single equipment give us the different property of material.

Ryder Rude

nice. Lemme google

Mast

Related to viscosity meters.

Ryder Rude

08:10

yeah

123

Yes... Rheometer means high end viscometer with rotation plus oscillation.

Ryder Rude

@123 you r like an experimentalist trying to learn theory

Mast

Some fluids are too complex to measure with a 'normal' viscosity meter.

That's when rheometers come into play.

123

@Mast Yes exactly

Ryder Rude

PSE has lots of experimentalists who know equipment and r trying to know theory

123

08:11

@RyderRude Yes that's why i wanted to learn theory.

Ryder Rude

@Mast oh

ACuriousMind

@imbAF Why would it be a Coulomb potential? That's the potential of the electric field generated by a single point charge, but there's lots of other ways to generate potentials, as you should know (e.g. for the field between the plates of a capacitor you certainly don't have the Coulomb potential!)

Ryder Rude

@Mast do u also deal with equipments

123

And i know physics is the mother of all sciences. Every theory is explained by physics with their elemental level

Mast

@RyderRude Not anymore. I used to work in academia and I used to be a test engineer (separate jobs), so I've picked up a lot of trivia over the years.

Ryder Rude

08:13

@Mast oh..

@123 yes. Physics explains everything at the highest level of detail

all other sciences know this

ACuriousMind

:66408260 Please do not post direct links to copyright infringing material here, if someone complains about that moderators would have to take action.

Ryder Rude

yesterday, i was watching a neuroscientist and she was aware that her field was a course grained version of physics

@ACuriousMind ok..

123

Yes... and i love physics. I don't need to learn anything. But this is my enthusiasm about physics since school time. And i wanted to understand the physics with every single detail. That's why i asked silly questions.

Mr. Feynman

I think that what Ryder Rude is saying relies too much on reductionism, which isn't necessarily the correct point of view

Ryder Rude

@Mr.Feynman yeah... it isn't known to be true

Mr. Feynman

08:17

You're phrasing it like reductionism is established :P

ACuriousMind

@qwerty I plan to write a seperate answer soon but since Qmechanic says there are counterexamples the answer isn't wrong, just not particularly helpful

Ryder Rude

still, the naive go-to viewpoint of other scientists is that they're doing a less fundamental version of physics

it is a nice way to think about things, but not known to be true

123

I know guys here have very deep and vast knowledge of physics. I ask question here. When i became tired by books, youtube and google.

Ryder Rude

@Mr.Feynman sorry. I meant to say that it is lazily accepted to be true

like, the neuroscientist i was watching accepted it

@123 it is also important to ask progressing questions

like, if people have helped u with a question before, u have to ask subsequent questions

123

@RyderRude Yes you are right. But i ask question as per my knowledge , i know which is weak. Now i have stepped my feet in LM

Ryder Rude

08:21

@123 also, u r doing this as a side-thing, maybe which is y u aren't too focused on progressing rn

naturallyInconsistent

@Mr.Feynman there are two Townsends, even though it is the same author, but one is vastly worse than the other.

123

This is side thing, but i gave my maximum hours of day with physics.

Ryder Rude

@123 oh. then u will progress soon

Mr. Feynman

@naturallyInconsistent Two Townsend in QM? I know there are two "famous" Townsend, but I remembered one was in HEP and the other in GR

123

Thanks Hopefully

naturallyInconsistent

08:23

@Mr.Feynman yes, QM

123

Sorry i need to go pick my kids from school. And then refinery. I will be back after 3 to 4 hours or early. I need to discuss about the experiment. Thanks a lot

Mr. Feynman

@naturallyInconsistent I was talking about John S. Townsend. Which one of the two is he? :P

Claudio

The guy who wrote the book on intro QM

Mr. Feynman

Yeah

Claudio

it's not a bad book :P Perfect for a first course imo

naturallyInconsistent

08:26

@Mr.Feynman both are by the same guy. The FUNDAMENTAL approach is not at all ok. The MODERN approach is tolerable.

Claudio

modern, I'm talking about the modern one

Mr. Feynman

Oh, it's the same guy. I thought that "two Townsends" was about the person, not the book :P

Ryder Rude

@123 ok

Mr. Feynman

because as I said there is another Townsend, known e.g. for writing a cool set of notes on Black Holes

ACuriousMind

@Mr.Feynman ...what did you think nI meant with "two Townsends, even though it is the same author"? :P

two guys, but with the same author? :D

Mr. Feynman

08:28

Oh, damn it. My bad, guys. I have this bad tendency to skip sentences when I read. Sorry

Claudio

two guys from different timelines?

naturallyInconsistent

@Mr.Feynman grrrr

Mr. Feynman

What I read:
"there are two Townsends, but one is vastly worse than the other."

ACuriousMind

I mean, maybe you live in a fantasy world where people can be written into existence

you don't have parents, you have authors

sounds interesting but it's probably horrible :P

naturallyInconsistent

Also, it is horrible. There is a John Sealy Townsend, which is not the same Townsend as the John S Townsend who wrote the QM books.

Slereah

08:29

The only Townsends I know is youtube.com/@townsends

Mr. Feynman

In a sense that's true, yeah

naturallyInconsistent

And then in GR, there is a Paul Kingsley Townsend, and then there is Solomon Townsend, and then there are more...

Send them to a town

Claudio

@Slereah how can you have the perfect youtube joke for any situation

truly incredible

Ryder Rude

in Marvel comics, they have a character called The One Above All and it is basically just an incarnation of writers of the comics

Mr. Feynman

Townsend is the Smith of physics

Slereah

08:30

It's not a joke, just a guy named townsends

Ryder Rude

so in the comic-verse, no one can touch god because it is the writers

Slereah

I did once look up how the scientific situation of colonial America was

turns out, not very developped!

Claudio

ok let's pretend you don't have a playlist named youtube vids for memes in the hbar

Ryder Rude

in a way, this god exists outside of spacetime of the comics, so it gives some notion of what it means for a god to exist outside of spacetime

qwerty

@ACuriousMind I look forward to it :)

Claudio

08:32

I'm starting to believe if you're born a townsend, you're bound to become a physicist at this point

Slereah

Time Travel Food! Pizza For George Washington

►

Many important things on this channel

ACuriousMind

@Claudio nah, the Townsends youtube channel makes US-historical cooking videos

Slereah

Well he makes US historical videos in general

But considering that colonial America was kind of a backwater, it is mostly just cooking :p

qwerty

...I have never made any particular note of Townsends in physics til today :P

Claudio

maybe they studied physics but quit to pursue cooking :)

qwerty

08:34

the "no not him" was always Lorenz/Lorentz

ACuriousMind

Schwarz/Schwartz is also a classic

Slereah

He does have a whole video on lighting in colonial America

naturallyInconsistent

Schultz / Schutz

Slereah

important candle business

Mr. Feynman

@qwerty Fun fact: there are more Lorenz (without a T)

ACuriousMind

08:35

@naturallyInconsistent at least those are pronounced differently!

Slereah

Lorentz is just the dutch version of Laurent

Like

Laurent series???

qwerty

haha. and how many bernoulli's?

naturallyInconsistent

@ACuriousMind not to clueless asians

Slereah

I mean the Bernoulli's aren't a coincidence

just a dynasty

Mr. Feynman

Or to clueless Italians

qwerty

08:35

lots of academic incest/nepo babies

Claudio

@Mr.Feynman lol same

naturallyInconsistent

Eats Schultz Leaves

ACuriousMind

...you don't even try to pronounce the L?

Mr. Feynman

There the one of the Lorenz gauge and the one of the Lorenz attractor

Slereah

@qwerty It was the olden times, back then we just called them Aristocrats

naturallyInconsistent

08:36

@ACuriousMind cant tell what the pronunciation difference would be, at least without having heard someone else do it

@Slereah wonder what it would be like to be an aristocat

mew

ACuriousMind

@naturallyInconsistent really just schults vs. schuts, there's an L sound before the ts in one of the names

qwerty

I met a woman at an academic conference once who bit off my head for awkwardly saying "oh, you're Ada. Like Ada Lovelace" because apparently Ada Lovelace was an academic nobody nepo baby who did nothing noteworthy at all :|

Claudio

It'd be terrible, wearing a necktie every single day would be a pain

qwerty

@naturallyInconsistent ~everybody, every body wants to be a CAT!~

Slereah

@Claudio also you had to wear a giant wig

Claudio

08:40

and white powder on my face maybe?

Slereah

if you're feeling fancy

Claudio

the type that gives you cancer :P

qwerty

@Claudio excuse moi monsieur c'est un CRAVAT

Slereah

Well just lead poisoning

naturallyInconsistent

@ACuriousMind miao miao could try to ooouuuullllts v.s. uts, but aint sure if that is even correct or not

@qwerty isnt Ada Lovelace celebrated today? WTF is that about?

ACuriousMind

08:41

@naturallyInconsistent what you mean by 'ou' is probably the correct sound for the u anyway ;)

Claudio

@qwerty pardon, mon french est a bit rustie

naturallyInconsistent

@Claudio cats dont have to wear ties

@ACuriousMind keels over and dies

Claudio

@naturallyInconsistent I beg to differ on this one, especially seeing some of the latest trends

Mr. Feynman

@ACuriousMind vocaroo.com/15ca61vHtUoe

naturallyInconsistent

@Claudio AI CATS ARE NOT CATS

Mr. Feynman

08:42

What the hell is an AI cat

Claudio

@naturallyInconsistent I was talking about the aristocats animated movie hahaha

naturallyInconsistent

@Mr.Feynman an abomination

qwerty

@naturallyInconsistent this woman said they were only in the history books because they were a rich aristocrat and female... and didn't actually contribute anything meaningful. I don't actually know of the particulars of Lovelace's work so, couldn't comment.

naturallyInconsistent

@Claudio looks away; you may imagine if it is majestic or not

Mr. Feynman

Oh, regarding cats. My cat loves baskets

3

naturallyInconsistent

08:44

if it fits, I sits

awww

Mr. Feynman

I did not put her there

Claudio

@Mr.Feynman I know you live in Italy, but that looks like paradise to me :O

ACuriousMind

@Mr.Feynman not bad, they do sound similar - but not the same, like Lorenz/Lorentz or Schwarz/Schwartz

Mr. Feynman

I see

@Claudio Damn it, I gave away my position

qwerty

that is an extremely picturesque cat!

Mr. Feynman

08:46

The army of Heaven will soon find you and silence you @Claudio

Claudio

@ACuriousMind you're telling me you'd be able to discern a guy saying Schwarz from Schwartz in the middle of a conversation

Mr. Feynman

No, he's telling you they sound the same

ACuriousMind

@Claudio no, I meant the opposite - they sound exactly the same

Claudio

oh I read too fast lol

Mr. Feynman

They say Leibniz had a "t" too in his name

naturallyInconsistent

08:47

@qwerty I'd point out that other aristocratic ladies of her time werent doing much of note to the sciences. Surely something ought to count for being exemplary?

Mr. Feynman

But he removed it because "t" stands for time and he hated Newton

Claudio

understandable, have a great day

ACuriousMind

@qwerty I mean, arguably most of the other people in the history books are only there because they were rich aristocrats and male, soooo...I'm not sure that's a good argument to make about historical figures :P

qwerty

@naturallyInconsistent I wasn't going to argue - i was a plus one ex-physicist at a table full of mathematicians... >.>

and she was annoyed

naturallyInconsistent

lol

Claudio

08:49

@qwerty you made the right choice :P

Mr. Feynman

@qwerty You have no clue, she's always in such photogenic positions

Claudio

Need to go study dang, didn't realize how late it is :) @Mr.Feynman I'll blame your cat's majestic presence this time

qwerty

@Mr.Feynman for a split second I thought we were talking about Lovelace, not your cat! :P

Mr. Feynman

It's still early to study, young man

@qwerty I guess context matters D:

Claudio

@Mr.Feynman lol. Bye guys

qwerty

08:52

@Mr.Feynman surely you're joking mr feynman?

Ryder Rude

@Mr.Feynman nice

qwerty

au revoir, claudio!

Ryder Rude

anyone wanna friendly debate on consciousness philosophies?

i will argue for the "consciousness is fundamental side" and u can argue for a different side

John Rennie

I find myself very tempted by the argument that consciousness doesn't exist. We act according to mechanisms in the brain that are not conscious, then the phenomenon we call consciousness is a post-rationalisation of those actions.

Sir Cumference

@Mr.Feynman lmao

The only bad part about Sakurai is that it points to Townsend for a derivation. A stain on an otherwise great book

Ryder Rude

09:09

@JohnRennie it is a bit far to say that consciousness doesn't exist. ur position seems more like consciousness is an aggregate, right? Like a table. It exists but it is just a name given to a bunch of things

it is a collective thing

John Rennie

I guess consciousness exists in the sense that we all experience it. The argument is that it's not a fundamental part of the human reasoning process, and specifically not related to free will.

Ryder Rude

@JohnRennie i don't have judgements about the relationship of consciousness to free will but i do think that what we call consciousness is an aggregate, but not just an aggregate of behavior, but also of some other fundamental properties of matter

John Rennie

I need to make clear the little I know about the subject has come from sites like Quanta i.e. the better end of the pop science spectrum but still pop science. So treat anything I might say on the subject with suspicion.

Ryder Rude

@JohnRennie ok :) i am also just interested in this but not professional

the reason i might say that human consciousness is an aggregate of non behavioral properties of matter is that it is intuitive to think that qualia can never be captured by behavior

John Rennie

Have you read:

Neuroscience of free will

The neuroscience of free will, a part of neurophilosophy, is the study of topics related to free will (volition and sense of agency) using neuroscience and the analysis of how findings from such studies may impact the free will debate. As medical and scientific technology has advanced, neuroscientists have become able to study the brains of living humans, allowing them to observe the brain's decision-making processes and revealing insights into human agency, moral responsibility, and consciousness. One of the pioneering studies in this field was conducted by Benjamin Libet and his colleagues in...

That seems like a good summary of the area I mentioned above.

Ryder Rude

09:17

@JohnRennie it is a reasonable position that at least many aspects of human behavior are deterministic

but even if all the aspects were deterministic (A Newtonian mechanical Brain), it still can be that subjective experience is is a non behavioral property

this is why i say that consciousness is a somewhat orthogonal problem to free will

John Rennie

Everything is deterministic (assuming there are no naked singularities nearby) but of course many things are sufficiently chaotic that determinism is of little use in describing them.

bolbteppa

@qwerty That Townsend QM book is bad, but there are good Townsends in physics

Ryder Rude

@JohnRennie yes. it is a reasonable position that the apparently unpredictable aspects of human decisions are simply intractable

bolbteppa

I think people made the same point in the chat :p

Ryder Rude

but there may be an element of non determinism, if quantum effects are significant in the relevant parts of the brain. So we can withhold judgement about complete determinism for now @JohnRennie

bolbteppa

09:22

@Mr.Feynman It would have put you to sleep

John Rennie

@RyderRude Hmm, you've been listening to Penrose again :-)

Ryder Rude

@JohnRennie i did discuss Penrose recently :). A fragement of his ideas were verified recently in experiments. But we can't relate that to decision making yet. This is why i tell to simply withhold judgement until we know all corners of the brain

as in , it was verified that quantum effects are significant in microtubules @JohnRennie

i mean that there is evidence for partial determinism but we should withhold judgement about complete determinism as that is an extremely strong position

John Rennie

Assuming you're talking about the fluorescence measurements from microtubules that is far from the sort of quantum effects Penrose claims. To say that it supports Penrose's theories seems like a stretch to me.

Ryder Rude

I meant that we have evidence that quantum effects can sustain in the brain. this, by no means, provides positive evidence for Penrose's claims. But this supports the weaker position that quantum effects can be significant in the brain,. Therefore, until we understand the brain, we should not commit to the extremely strong position of complete determinism @JohnRennie

John Rennie

Chemical bonds are a quantum effect, and there are chemical bonds in the brain. That doesn't make Penrose's theories any the more plausible.

Ryder Rude

09:32

that is a good counter argument. i dont know the specifics of the fluoroscence observation, but isn't that the kind of thing people were saying shouldve been impossible due to decoherence in a warm environment?

if, specifically, we have evidence of not just a quantum effect, but of the claim that quantum superpositions can sustain in the brain, that can support claims about non determinism @JohnRennie

but again, idk the specifics of whether this applies to the fluoroscence observation @JohnRennie

i just saw in a video that it did...

John Rennie

The paper is freely downloadable. If I can find the time it would be interesting to read through it. While I doubt many of the chat room members know much about brain chemistry, the QM aspects of it should be straightforward.

Ryder Rude

@JohnRennie thanks :)

i will read it and see what it supports

but, even if there was non determinism, it only introduces randomness into human decisions, which isn't anything like free will @JohnRennie

this paper does talk about a quantum superposition on the last page

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie sounds like you're an epiphenomenalist

John Rennie

I'm a little cautious about "isms" because it seems to me like saying you're an xxx ist is likely reaching for a set of clothes that never fits perfectly.

Ryder Rude

@ACuriousMind i think empiphenomalism only says that consciousness doesn't causally participate. It just rides along. @JohnRennie 's position is more like materialism, in which consciousness is just a name given to complex behavior

> Because mental events are a kind of overflow that cannot cause anything physical, yet have non-physical properties, epiphenomenalism is viewed as a form of property dualism

John Rennie

09:44

In any case I know so little about this subject that I doubt my opinions qualify for anything remotely approaching a coherent point of view.

But for some reason I do like the idea that consciousness is kind of a parasite (or maybe it's fairer to say a symbiont) that goes along for the ride whenever we think that we think.

Ryder Rude

lol

it is like soul with extra steps

John Rennie

I think it might have been Dave Barry, or maybe Ambrose Bierce, who defined the brain as "the organ with which we think that we think" :-)

Ryder Rude

like time defined as what clocks measure

Mr. Feynman

10:17

@qwerty I don't know how much of a rumor that is. I read in in a book by Rovelli :P

@bolbteppa Probably, but everything originated from something I started overthinking after reading it on L&L

Slereah

The 2024 Particle Data Group is available for preorder

ACuriousMind

@Mr.Feynman German spelling was not very consistent in Leibniz' times - his father was usually written Leibnütz, it's not unusual for different spellings to coexist in this time period

Mr. Feynman

10:33

@ACuriousMind I think the anectodal part was more him removing the t because of his grudge with Newton :P

I mean, even my grandma and her siblings have a spelling mistake making their last names different D:

ACuriousMind

I can find multiple claims he decided on the spelling in 1671/at 25 years of age, but no documented reason

@Mr.Feynman People didn't use to be so particular about names and spelling. My mother used her first name since she could remember with a 'C' and recently learned her formal name in the eyes of the state was written with 'K' when she tried to renew an ID and they made her go through a formal name change process so that she could continue writing it with 'C' in official contexts

Mr. Feynman

There is a similar issue in Italy with the name Katia/Catia

Oh, probably in English too. Kate can also have the variant Cate

ACuriousMind

the idea that people have a single "correct" name that is only changed under exceptional circumstances is an extremely modern Western conception, see falsehoods programmers believe about names

I have some Indian colleagues with a bunch of letters (sometimes a single letter) as their surnames because their local culture didn't use to have surnames until "modern" systems required them to enter one and they chose stuff like "my father's initial", resulting in people whose surname is, officially, just 'P' or 'S' or something like that

Mr. Feynman

@ACuriousMind The number and role of names changes wildly. In some countries they don't even have a last name, in other countries like ours they do and in others they even have a patronymic

In Ancient Rome they had praenomen, nomen, cognomen

Regarding how to spell a name, in Japan (and China) it gets as wild as possible. Many different names are homophones without being written with the same Kanji, so they have completely different meanings (which matter more than in our cultures, where we name children basing on how good it sounds)

John Rennie

I believe in the UK you are allowed to change your name without going through any legal process. You just tell people what you wish to be called. However institutions like banks may demand proof of the name change, and to get that it's usual to create a deed poll.

Mr. Feynman

10:48

You can do that also on PSN and Sony requires no proof :P

qwerty

11:12

I wonder if the obsession with unique single correct names in our modern society generally speaking stems from people being more mobile on the whole, a larger population and globalisation. Being easily uniquely identifiable has its benefits.

Mr. Feynman

I forgot mentioning that the same Kanji can change pronunciation in two different names

qwerty

@Mr.Feynman are you talking about Japanese names?

Mr. Feynman

Yes

ACuriousMind

@qwerty A unique unchangeable name is important for the modern state to tax and surveil its citizens correctly; mobile populations have always been a thorn in the side of sedentary states because people who remain in one place are much easier to extract taxes from

qwerty

@ACuriousMind ah yes this came up in our discussions on shepherds

Ryder Rude

11:21

"if the penalty for crime is a fine, it is legal for the rich"

qwerty

11:38

goodnight everyone. it's been really cosy chatting with you all

Ryder Rude

goodnight

Ryder Rude