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12:00 AM
And (from Cotler) instead of actually changing this tensor product factorization, we instead unitarily vary the hamiltonian with arbitrary unitary operators parameterized by d^2-1 parameters, so 15 in this case.
I then define a function that computes the linear entropy of a time evolved initial candidate pointer state parameterized by the d^2-1 parameters. this outputst the "score" of the unitarily varied hamiltonian and hence tensor product factorization.
i find the set of d^2-1 parameters which minimizes the score. there are many such sets of parameters.
 
ah, I see
 
and to clarify each set of 15 (in the case of 4 dimensions) parameters corresponds to the unitary transformation which sends our initial hamiltonian to a new unitarily varied hamiltonian and hence potentially new tensor product structure
of course the difficulty is thatt some of these unitary transformations stay within the same tensor product structure
 
you're trying to find a factorization/Hamiltonian for which your non-entangled state becomes the "least" entangled over time
since that's the most convenient way to think about the system
 
yes
most convenient in terms of writing code at least
well actually it is also just as much about finding if the minimum factorization is unique
because i can find many minimum factorizations
 
that's the dual business we discussed a while back, I remember
 
12:05 AM
yes
!
 
i am thinking that i would only be able to maybe statistically justify that "most of these minima are part of the same TPS" but that seems kind of not rigorous enough
also i guess to be more precise, I should have said tensor product structure everywhere i said tensor product factorization
 
I mean of course "most" of them are the same TPS because there are infinitely many unitaries but usually only finitely many duals :D
 
XD heh
well i guess at least i can find minima XD there is one step in the right direction
previouslyt i had been trying to use gradient descent but it turns out one line of scipy does the trick lol
 
I think the way to get GR from some gauge theory is basically 1) have some Lorentz gauge theory 2) have the bundle be natural 3) have an AVB in the standard rep of the group
I think it's all you need
Maybe the AVB is also natural idk if that naturally flows otherwise
Though I'm not sure if just naturalness is enough to guarantee some relation to the tangent bundle
 
12:11 AM
Also, I think I have finally found peace with the current level of my understanding of the Cotler business lol.
maybe in 10 years i will understand it fully but that is for 10 years
 
 
2 hours later…
2:16 AM
Hey! I got a question,
If we add two white noise together would the result amplitude or sound pressure level of the sum be different than when we add sine waves of the same amp and SPL?
Also, in adding the sine waves, if the speakers are in front of eachother, should we substract or add?
 
 
4 hours later…
6:46 AM
Why is the conservation of any four vector other than the 4 momentum forbid all except forward collisions?
This is from a footnote in Weinberg's QFT book---
""The only conserved tensors are the scalar
`charges' associated with various continuous symmetries, and the energy-momentum four-vector .
The conservation of any other four-vector, or any tensor of higher rank, would forbid afl but
forward collisions .""
 
7:46 AM
Consider a density matrix represented as an nxn matric $M$. Let's say we are working in a Hilbert space $\mathcal{H} \cong \mathbb{C}^2 \otimes \mathbb{C}^2 \otimes \mathbb{C}^2$, where each factor corresponds to a qubit.
Is it true that in general the decomposition of $M \mapsto M_1 \otimes M_2 \otimes M_3$ is unique?
 
 
1 hour later…
8:56 AM
Is there any resource (that is not L&L as I've read that part) that makes clear the distinction between the magnetic fields $\boldsymbol{H}$ and $\boldsymbol{\mathfrak{H}}$?
From "standard" E&M I only know $B$, $H$ and $M$ as macroscopic quantities
 
9:55 AM
@ManasDogra he's probably referring to this
It's explained better (e.g. the conservation of higher rank tensors part) in the first chapter of Freund's supersymmetry book
I cannot believe how simple it is to see where the LRL vector comes from after that post above, it was staring everyone in the face the whole time
@Slereah There's more ways than this, there's also a Poincare version for example, confusing stuff
 
10:30 AM
@bolbteppa yeah with affine connections
But one step at a time
 
10:59 AM
@SillyGoose What exactly does the $\mapsto$ in your "decomposition" denote?
because in general not every $M$ is equal to such a simple tensor; the point of entanglement is precisely that not all states/operators in a tensor product are of this form
and when such a decomposition exists it is not unique without further constraints on the $M_i$ - consider that $(ca)\otimes b = a\otimes (cb)$ for any constant $c$
 
11:29 AM
How goes your recovery from CoV pal @Slereah
 
11:45 AM
Still not doing amazing but better than in february
 
Good to hear.
 
12:18 PM
Hi
Philosophically, what does it mean for natural numbers to exist?
wishing you great recovery @Slereah
I'm thinking that the concept of infinity is just an illusion in our head
One can never encounter an actual infinite set. Even in our head, there is nothing infinite. It's just a feeling that there exists an infinite set.
 
What about $1/0$
 
Y is that infinite
I'm fine with limits tho
$x\rightarrow \infty$ is just a bunch of symbols with well-defined rules of manipulation
There's no actual infinity there
I'm fine with arbitrarily large sets
That we can encounter in real life
But infinite sets dont exist even in our head imo
Proofs of truths about infinite sets are just a string manipulation game
 
12:34 PM
It's not clear that saying that natural numbers exist imply infinity
 
So how do you address uncountably infinite sets, e.g. Cantor's diagonalization argument, i.e. that there are different 'types' of infinity
 
It only comes about when you start defining cardinality
 
All that is proved after assuming infinite sets in the first place. It's all just formal string manipulation.
One can never test these proofs on actual infinite sets
The models are always finite
Whether they exist in our head or on a computer to verify
 
@RyderRude the same happens in calculus. We want to model infinite processes but we have only finite pieces of papers or whatever lol
 
Nonetheless, these proofs r useful cuz they r valid for the finite models
 
12:36 PM
And it must have something also to do with our understanding of the passage of time. Processes can only happen in time
 
@Amit yeah, cuz u cant keep verifying forever
 
But now the elephant in the room, what if spacetime is ontologically infinite
To me, this question is irrelevamt
 
We have entered the realm of these people
 
Ahhh N J Wildberger has strong views on this, he is in the intuitionistic school as far as I can tell although he may not define himself as such
 
12:38 PM
What do people in intuitionistic school say
Do they agree with this
 
@RyderRude It may be relevant to physics kind of, maybe the "laws" are never universal, due to some kind of an infinity they always keep evolving, and perhaps in unexpected ways too if the infinity is crazy enough
@RyderRude They don't accept say, proof by contradiction
The law of the excluded middle you know, when it has to do with infinite sets, means you can make some statement about an infinite number of items, they don't like that
 
Then they are good
Idk what it could mean for infinity to exist
Or for spacetime to be ontologically infinite
 
small example of what they're concerned about
Well if it's a boring infinity it doesn't mean much. I mean the infinitude of a totally homogenous thing can't give you new things. But the infinity of $\pi$ for example is more interesting, that you can find any permutation of numbers of any length you choose somewhere, that's weird
 
It's all in our head :P. If you cant actually do that calculation forever, there is no infinity
The proof of pi being transcendental is just formal string manipulation
Imo
Not to say it's not useful tho
The use of these proofs is that they r valid in the finite realm
 
I agree we need to be able to talk about processes without implying infinity all the time. I mean the definition of a limit is a kind of a good step in that direction I think. Just because $\epsilon$ can get arbitrarily small as $\delta$ gets small, doesn't mean you have to go on to infinitely smallness, these two can be separated
 
12:46 PM
Yeah. In the end, it's just string manipulation
Even limits
 
It's not so easy to do away with it as mere string manipulations I think. When you take the derivative apparently you're using some statements about infinity...
 
These manipulations dont tell u the truths about infinite processes, cuz those dont exist
They tell u truths about processes u can actually compute
 
If you're a physicist that's less of a problem, because you just say you're taking the best approximation
 
@Amit why do you say that
 
Because the derivative can be shown to be the best approximation to this process
but since you admit it's only an approximation to something real, you don't get entangled about the validity of it you see, you just care about how it relates to measured things
well maybe at least until you get to divergent stuff in QFT lol
 
12:49 PM
Derivative computation is just formal string manipulation tho
There is this camp of mathematicians called formalists
 
@RyderRude Ah sorry, I thought you are replying to something else. You can reduce it to formal string manipulation okay but there is also "epistemological" content behind the definition of a limit that is hard to ignore
What do formalists say?
 
That all of mathematics is a string manipulation game
 
That's just party pooping lol
 
Im loving their philosophy
 
Anyone who ever tried to say that epistemology is irrelevant is a party pooper as far as I'm concerned lol. It ends up with trying to reduce the thinking process to nothing but a machine process, it's not clear we can do that
Not clear 'cause it has something to do with consciousness
 
12:52 PM
@Slereah sorry to hear man, terrible stuff
 
The idea is that these manipulation games sometimes tell us truths about things that exist
 
> "Cantor's views prevailed and modern mathematics accepts actual infinity as part of a consistent and coherent theory"
 
@RyderRude okay I probably don't know enough about this to understand if they're attacking epistemology, or is it just the strict adherence to axiomatization etc.
 
There are multiple infinities, square root of 2 is a real thing, etc...
 
@bolbteppa It's useful. I agree with that. But only becuz the proofs in formal systems with infinities actually tell us truths about finite models
There's no such thing as an infinite MODEL imo.
But the axiomatic systems with infinities r still useful
Ultimately, the truths that we prove are only tested with finite models
 
12:56 PM
$1 = 1.0000000...$ there are an infinite number of zero's here, $\sqrt{2} = 1.414...$ an infinite number of $a/10^r$ numbers here, if infinity doesn't exist then $\sqrt{2}$ doesn't exist
 
The '....... ' stuff is in our head
 
and so on
 
Pythagoras threw people off a boat over this, the lesson has been learned by humanity not to get thrown off the boat
 
Lemme explain
 
please do
 
12:57 PM
Theres nothing infinite about.......
 
"..." means "and so on"
 
@RyderRude It's not clear: when you test experiment (reality) vs. theoretical calculation, you're apparently comparing an infinite calculation vs. a finite calculation (I mean in QM if what we say is right, nature is calculating infinite sums and funny things like that, it has infinite precision in complex amplitudes, and so on...)
 
There is, I could keep adding 0's to that forever
 
It's just a human way to talk about truths about a finite computation
@bolbteppa but u cudnt do that forever
No one cud
 
says who?
 
12:59 PM
Even an immortal being wud only live for arbitrarily large times
There's no actual infinity
 
Mathematically there is
 
@RyderRude if you could put a computer program that goes something like while(true) printf("0"); on a photon lol, it would be done forever lol
 
Even mathematically,, there isn't. It's just strinf Manipulation
Even mathematically,, there isn't. It's just string Manipulation
@bolbteppa when we proved root 2 goes on forver, it was a string manipulation
And that manipulation only tells u the truth about a finite computable process involving root 2
Thats the only relevance of infinities in mathematical axiomatix systems
 
@RyderRude Now I am quite sure you would be interested to see some of N J Wildberger lectures :) He teaches even calculus from that kind of an approach.
 
Then im definitely interested @Amit
 
1:02 PM
and if I try to count all the rational numbers in the interval $[1,2]$, I can use string manipulation to show there are so many numbers in this interval that they can't even be counted with a string manipulation because there is more than one kind of infinity
 
Raionals r countable tho
U mean reals
But anyway, there is no such thing as an actual set of real numbers
 
Heretical!!!!
lol
 
It's just a useful model to approximate measurements about reality
 
What does "and so on" mean?
1.000... = 1
 
lol, it means "the proof of the above is left as an infinite exercise for the reader"
 
1:05 PM
@user7269591 it means that u can continue thay process for as long as u want and the statement wud b true
The statement that 1.0000....=1
Abitrarily large sets exist
 
Will that ever change?
 
Will what change
 
1.000... =1
 
No, it is true for arbitrarily large number of zeros
 
how big is arbitrary?
 
1:07 PM
It wont change. That is the value of proofs involving infinities even if infinities dont exist
@user4539917 arbitrary is just a word. It doesnt have bigness
 
@RyderRude I think user4539917 is pointing out something like this: if for example you accept a certain proof by induction, it can mean two things: from what you apparently say, it only means that for any $n$ the statement $p(n)$ implies $p(n+1)$ but we can't ever say that the statement $p$ is true for all whatever items it concerns with
it's a very different way of thinking about this
 
Yeah, becuz there is no such thing as the "all items"
The truths are only proved for finite processes
In case of induction
Or in case of any proof which claims to prove things about infinite sets
 
So wait what is the implication of that... that every time you want to use the theorem that $p$ for a certain $n$ you must first explicitly write $p(n-1)$ implies $p(n)$? But then how do you know $p(n-1)$ is true? etc?
 
@RyderRude infinity is just a word that has no limit
 
If I take the number $1 \cdot 10^0 + 0 \cdot 10^{-1} + 0 \cdot 10^{-2} + ...$, the only way to be sure this is the number $1$ is if I compute this up to $10^{-\infty}$ and verify that all coefficients are $0$ (if you say it's finite I can always add a $0 \cdot 10^{-(a+1)}$), until I do that I technically can't write down that this series is equal to the number $1$. However if I just began with the number $1$ I'd be working with the result of an infinite series from the get-go
 
1:10 PM
@Amit u proved it for finite sets tho. n is finite, so it works
 
@RyderRude that's true, although maybe even saying that "this is true for any $n\in\mathbb{N}$" is already kind of implying you're allowing $n$ to range over infinite values...
 
@Amit The N is not a set. It's the "proper class" or the "universe" in this context
 
The square root of 2 being irrational only stems from your desire to attribute fractions to lines
 
This is thing called hereditary finite universe
 
Maybe some lines are just incomensurable!!!
 
1:14 PM
It has arbitrarily large sets but not N
 
@RyderRude You're using string manipulation to dodge infinity!!! :)
 
@Slereah Yeah, ultimately we only did some string manipulation when we proved root 2 is irrational. The only value of the proof is that it says that a computer working for a finite time will never find p/q=root 2
 
"infinitely many" is a perfectly good adverb to describe the number of members in {1, 2, 3, ... }
 
There is value in working with hereditary finite universe
 
It says/implies the set of rational numbers $q$ satisfying $q^2 < 2$ has no largest element, i.e. it is an infinite set, just like the set of rational numbers is an infinite set
 
1:17 PM
Cuz othwerwise, u get arbitrarily large cardinals and ultimately u get Russel's paradox
Unless, u deny the existence some larger infinity at some point in ur axiomatic systwm
 
@RyderRude I don't think that's the only way to resolve Russell's paradox. You can also do it with type theory
 
Type theory was the dad of ZFC. The approach of ZFC is what i just said
 
But it doesn't deny that there may be larger infinities does it? It only prevents you from mixing them in the same set?
 
ZFC gets rid of Russel by merely denying the inaccessible infinity
So u gotta cut off infinities at some point
Or u will end up with the set of all sets
I say cut them off right at omega
 
I thought the basic rule to avoid it is just to say that a set can only contain sets that are of a lower "infinity" type than itself, but there may exist also bigger infinity type sets containing it. But I may be botching it up lol
 
1:21 PM
Cuz any real world computation cant go on forever anyway
@Amit yeah, this is somewhat the idea
But any particular theory has to deny some large infinity
A theory cannot say "maybe there's more"
 
The endless arguments about the existence of infinity prove the existence of infinity
 
Oh in the sense that it is talking from a certain set downwards
@bolbteppa Einstein put it more bitingly lol
 
@bolbteppa *arbitrarily many arguments
 
Does "forever " exist?
 
No @user4539917
Sorry, i meant yes
Idk
 
1:24 PM
Happily ever after?
 
Happily ever after, and if not, just Taylor expand it
 
There is one thing that concerns me : "The set of points in a finite space". How do i make it fit into my reasoning?
This set exists right in front of u and is seemingly infinite
Ive been telling myself that its just an apprpximate model for measurements
 
Well you just said you don't accept $\mathbb{R}$ exists right? So it can't make sense?
 
I said it doesnr exist becuz u cant actually find any examples of it
 
1:28 PM
We always use $\mathbb{R}$ to model space in physics... just because mathematicians didn't give us something better lol
 
U cant encounter them in reality
But this set is right in front of u
Its not just a feeling of infinity in ur head
 
I have been looking into doing physics without R
But it is not a very pleasant thing
 
@Slereah that made me laugh
 
unReal
 
I remember some stories of probabilities not adding up to $1$ when you try doing QM with a discrete definition of space, kind of makes sense but funny
 
1:30 PM
In mathematics, point-free geometry is a geometry whose primitive ontological notion is region rather than point. Two axiomatic systems are set out below, one grounded in mereology, the other in mereotopology and known as connection theory. Point-free geometry was first formulated in Whitehead (1919, 1920), not as a theory of geometry or of spacetime, but of "events" and of an "extension relation" between events. Whitehead's purposes were as much philosophical as scientific and mathematical. == Formalizations == Whitehead did not set out his theories in a manner that would satisfy present-day...
 
Is it the same Whitehead who wrote with Russell the Principia?
 
it is
 
Interesting that he thought about this so early
 
pointless geometry would be a better name
 
@RyderRude It is also used
 
1:33 PM
A point has no size.
 
@Amit the notion of geometry without points is as old as geometry
ancient greeks were arguing about it
 
A line has no thickness.
 
Oh I didn't know that... well I guess we are all bound to be kind of Euclid (or maybe it's more Desecrates?) biased due to how history went
 
Geometry was pretty widely discussed in antiquity but after a while pretty much everyone started agreeing with Euclid
and it was sort of never questioned that much until the 19th century
Except for the axiom of the parallels I guess
controversial topic
 
Indeed, self-evident Truth is controversial topic.
 
1:37 PM
it was very much not self evident :p
Part of the issue being that parallelism is hard to establish
 
The controversy was mainly whether it can be proven from the other axioms
 
Since in real life, we have no infinite lines
also that
 
In real life we have no points or lines.
 
Set theory is in a similar place. CH cannot b proven from other axioms. People argue if there actually exists a "collection of objects" for which CH is false.
 
that too :p
Which was Proclus' point
 
1:39 PM
In case of geometry, we were able to find actual models where the parallel postulate was false
But idk if set theory has actual examples of sets with cardinality between N and R
 
I guess that some of Penrose work shows that "points" can be used for different things in geometry right? He likes to map infinities to points for example... I guess in general the fact that modern geometry is supposedly coordinate free allows us to use points more as a tool rather than a fundamental thing
 
many such debates
 
"what generates generates" - I got that bit
He must be talking about the Laplacian
First EM lecture: "There is a number at every point in space", wait wait professor, there are no numbers, and there are no points in space.... lol
 
@Amit that's when you start using distributions
 
Yes charge density etc.
 
1:47 PM
I dont get it. Distributions r functions from points to numbers
Do we change that to "functions from regions to numbers"?
I mean for pointless geometry
 
@RyderRude When you define this stuff you do actually take a small volume and let it tend to $0$...
 
Pointless geometry isn't actually used for physics as far as I can tell
 
But how that would look like with point-free geometry Idk
 
It is overall not powerful enough to have much use
 
1:49 PM
lol I like that we all call it pointless now
 
I think there's some proof of that lemme see
 
Lol
 
if you want the classier name, it's "mereology"
 
Crazy that we can prove how much power a theory has
 
I'll use that at the next tea party
 
1:50 PM
Serious levels of meta
Math-ception
 
Theorem. Set-theoretic mereology, considered as the theory of $\langle V, \subseteq \rangle$, is precisely the theory of an atomic unbounded relatively complemented distributive lattice, and furthermore, this theory is finitely axiomatizable, complete and decidable.
Quite sad that a theory being complete and decidable is essentially its death warrant
 
The Godel certainty principle lol
 
"One cannot define $\in$ from $\subseteq$ in any model of set theory, even allowing parameters in the definition."
 
I wonder if the Grothedieck universe contains everything, why doesnt it run into Russel's paradox
It it just cuz it names itself a universe rather than a set?
Or maybe it doesnt contain everything
It cant contain its power set. Idk
 
"we cannot determine in $\subseteq$-based set-theoretic mereology whether the continuum hypothesis holds or fails, whether the axiom of choice holds or fails or whether there are large cardinals or not."
All good points in favor of mereology
Get rid of all that
 
Lol
He does look like Gandalf
 
That convo was somewhat free spirited lol
 
Mereology is a pretty big field otoh and some of it cheats by having atomic elements
so it's not guaranteed that all mereologies are like that
 
That name is too close to meteorology
 
it is from meros, "part"
 
2:05 PM
Oh
 
Partology is nice
 
What if only individual elements exist? I mean u cant talk about set of sets anymorr
This gets rid of large cardinals
 
Well you're not gonna be able to do much math then
 
Maybe the need to talk about set of subsets is just a human need
 
lol, no more Topology
 
2:09 PM
Lol
 
Is it bothering you from a conceptual perspective or a physical one
 
Idk.. i guess everything is in conceptual perspective
 
Because concepts is a set of subsets!
 
It doesnt bother mee
I just said it randomly :P
 
Not bother on the personal level I mean you know
 
2:14 PM
What do we mean by objective reality/ontological reality? Is it defined using sets, elements, stuff
Or are sets and elements just a conscious interpretation of reality
 
google says "There are two types of ontology – objective or objectivism"
 
I mean, suppose we were able to find the last physics theory which explained all measurements. The theory wud b formalised using set theoey. It wud ultimately b a theory about sets
So do we then say that those sets ARE reality? They exist ontologically?
 
Not as far as I'm concerned. I say they are just tools that help us make nice numbers that agree nicely with reality
 
I'll get back to you once I solve reality
 
@Slereah U have till wednesday
@Amit thats wut im thinking. Maybe reality is just one BLOB
 
2:17 PM
lol. But that's kind of why Quantum computers are cool right. Like in CS they already realized, some programs can only be understood by running them... so Quantum machines should be able to run reality in a sense, at least better than we did till now
 
Reality doesnt know about sets, elements
@Amit do u mean a simulation like the matrix
 
Yes very much so
You just have to run the thing ultimately to understand it. There's very little we can understand analytically... even classically, we need to simulate GR to understand complex situations
Black holes mergers, etc.
 
Hmmm.. then we run into the problem of the ontology of the meta-universe. Let's say we r in a simulation. Then the sets of quantum theory have ontological existence of some computer
But then what about the ontology of the meta universe
The universe that that simulation is running in
 
No it doesn't mean it's a simulation
I think that's just a projection of our own way of doing things
 
U get a bunch of russian doll universes whose sets have ontological existence
 
2:21 PM
We understand stuff by simulating them so we imagine someone else did it to us, it's anthropomorphizing nature in the extreme
 
And these russian dolls themselves form a set
 
There's only one doll
lol
 
 
2 hours later…
4:48 PM
@ACuriousMind oh gosh i see i don't know what i was thinking. thank you
 
5:38 PM
is the image of physics S.E higgs field ??
 
It is very similar but it may be just a highly symmetrical hat
Perhaps Sombrero potentials also arise on other occasions (equations, occasions)
 
@Amit Highly symmetrical hat 🤣 , where can I buy one?
 
You can buy a nearly symmetrical one and polish it very carefully
 
It's the Mexican hat potential, see physics.meta.stackexchange.com/q/949/50583
 
You can also buy only the real part of the hat and rotate it symmetrically
omg that question
lol
 
5:56 PM
@Amit I just saw it , same no words to be expressed 😂
 
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