The h Bar

12:36 AM

Out of curiosity, what's the story behind the name of this chatroom? Wikipedia points me to some multiple of planks constant?

bolbteppa

@Daniel in quantum mechanics, Planck's constant h over 2 pi appears more frequently than h on it's own, so you give it a name, $\hbar = \frac{h}{2 \pi}$

Daniel

huh, thanks @bo

@bolbteppa

its a good pun

vzn

1:07 AM

in Mathematics, 1 min ago, by vzn

Atiyah riemann attack preprint(s) on google drive any opinion? https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/9icamx/is_there_an_error_in_the_preprint_‌published_by/

bolbteppa

1:27 AM

@vzn woah, I thought the Kavanaugh news was big, but wow

Semiclassical

1:45 AM

@bolbteppa My initial reaction was skeptical, on the grounds of 'how do we know it's actually him"

But there is a testable claim there: What did he say in his ICM 2018 speech?

bolbteppa

reddit.com/r/math/comments/9hjizo/…

From the OP of that

Semiclassical

And, indeed, he does talk about the fine structure constant in his ICM 2018

I'm not sure a good point to pick, but maybe start around here: youtu.be/fUEvTymjpds?t=2068

bolbteppa

idk what to make of it

Obviously someone could have watched that and made up a bunch of nonsense

Talking about the fine structure constant is a bit nuts tbh

Semiclassical

yeah

Did you reach the part after he quoted Feynman?

Just casually claiming to be able to analytically deduce the fine structure constant?

bolbteppa

2:00 AM

'As mentioned in 2.6, Newton’s constant G will, in a forthcoming paper [7],'

This can't be serious

Semiclassical

I'm holding off judgment on the preprint, given that I don't know how to assess its provenance

The ICM talk, however, is already public

and ooooof

A claim to be able to derive the fine structure constant is about as big of a red flag as I can imagine.

bolbteppa

A reference to the 'forthcoming' Newton's constant even more so

Semiclassical

yeah, but again I'm limiting myself to the ICM talk since there's no debating the provenance of that

bolbteppa

It's kind of the perfect trick for a crank to get their work read if you think about it

Semiclassical

(This is one case where, despite my own tastes, I'd be interested in LM's response.)

bolbteppa

2:11 AM

No reference to Dirac anywhere, one use of the word Diracian

We were promised a Dirac reference

Semiclassical

I dunno. My hope was that, if he were wrong, he be wrong in an interesting way

bolbteppa

It's weird for it to be a made up paper, it's weird if it's a real paper, I have no idea

Semiclassical

I don’t think it’s even necessary to rely on that preprint. The ICM talk is enough by itself

bolbteppa

Was the talk like this, about numerology?

Semiclassical

I linked it above

I had to pick a rather arbitrary starting point in the video itself

But that’s roughly where he brings up the fine structure constant

vzn

2:24 AM

thinking if his physics ideas are nonsense, then we might be witnessing the middle of a sort of unravelling. that seems to be what many are pointing to. burning up his stellar reputation like the way a star collapses into a black hole.... :o o_O

bolbteppa

God he's talking about constants in physics :\

Semiclassical

I know :(

bolbteppa

'That number $\alpha$ is turning up everywhere'

vzn

agreed, huge red flags... :(

bolbteppa

He's quoting Feynman

Ahh

Semiclassical

2:26 AM

The bit right after the Feynman quote is where I had to stop the video and relisten to hear it again

bolbteppa

'I have solved that problem'

Oh man

Semiclassical

Yeeeeah

bolbteppa

This looks real

'$\alpha$ is the inverse of this number...'

Semiclassical

full disclosure: I had to step away from my laptop at that point (i've been on mobile since) so I haven't heard the rest of the talk

back on laptop now tho

bolbteppa

It was fun while it lasted...

vzn

2:28 AM

(heavy) sigh

Semiclassical

but I'm not sure I can bear to listen to the remainder

Like I was saying: With the preprint, we can hem and haw about whether he wrote it

but that ICM talk? no debating that

bolbteppa

Yeah

Even a troll writing the first/bigger one based on the talk is...

Semiclassical

it makes the preprint far more credible, and that’s not a good thing

vzn

> I can tell that already 10 years ago there was a talk by Atiyah at some institution near mine and all the "old" (60) top mathematicians I know said they would not go since he would say nonsens about the fact that physicists have solved everything and mathematicians (typically number theorists) should bend down and so on, and and they were tired of it. reddit.com/r/math/comments/9hl35w/…

bolbteppa

There is a site that discusses the fine structure constant, "Of particular importance, electric charge and the fine structure constant are derivable from the polarizability of space", vixra.org/quant

vzn

2:33 AM

more on "provenance" reddit.com/r/math/comments/9icamx/…

bolbteppa

"However theoretical physicists have struggled to get to 9 decimal places and a Platonic number should be calculable, like π, to arbitrary accuracy. I will therefore indicate how to produce a decimal expansion of Ж to, say 12 decimals, to impress any sceptics. This is the one place where I delve not into numerology"

Semiclassical

goo.gl/images/D2QUcZ

alternatively: " Adlai Stevenson told this story in his nationally-televised concession speech after the 1952 presidential election: “Someone asked me, as I came in, down on the street, how I felt, and I was reminded of a story that a fellow-townsman of ours used to tell—Abraham Lincoln. They asked him how he felt once after an unsuccessful election. He said that he was too old to cry, but it hurt too much to laugh.”"

vzn

Sir Michael Atiyah's Proof of the Rie…

For all those who are interested in Sir Michael Atiyah's proof...

Semiclassical

@vzn what time is the talk supposed to be?

bolbteppa

I think 9.45 Heidelberg time?

vzn

2:44 AM

@Semiclassical will repost announcement new room

bolbteppa

I was not expecting numerology on the fine structure constant

I should have checked that lecture on Friday and saved 3 days

Semiclassical

Atiyah proving the Riemann hypothesis: seems like a stretch, but we'll see
Atiyah deriving the fine structure constant: oh, f***

bolbteppa

That's such a great summary of this whole thing

Semiclassical

it's on the scale of this old Eddington line:

"The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation."

bolbteppa

I don't know if any of the 10 even apply to this

vzn

2:53 AM

rule #11 some ppl are semi crazy o_O

Semiclassical

I think 10 is the best fit

vzn

others are asking nearly exactly that question on reddit.

bolbteppa

I was a lot more okay with this going badly if it was just like an honest mistake or being too attached to a wrong idea, but the fine structure constant?

Semiclassical

in Mathematics, 2 hours ago, by Mike Miller

@TedShifrin can you just give anybody who talks about this for a week a half-hour tempban

vzn

at this point there are other questions to ask about eg his family...

Semiclassical

2:57 AM

that comment feels a lot more appropriate now than it did two hours ago

bolbteppa

One small semi-redeeming point, I think the RH stuff is independent of the fine structure stuff?

vzn

seems to be time to think about retirement "at least"...

Semiclassical

in the ICM talk, yeah

vzn

@bolbteppa this reminds me now of dunning-kruger effect, possible extreme case o_O

Semiclassical

but if that preprint is accurate, then he definitely wouldn't consider the two to be distinct

bolbteppa

2:59 AM

How?

vzn

@bolbteppa afaik he doesnt have any published papers in physics...?

bolbteppa

I think he does

Semiclassical

I think I'm done talking about this at any rate. I feel like I went digging for buried treasure and found a skeleton.

vzn

yep, a skeleton out of the closet o_O ... cyberspace can be weird sometimes. eeks, yikes, aieee

bolbteppa

haha this is sort of shocking alright

vzn

3:02 AM

ghost of a mathematician, haunting cyberspace! o_O

Semiclassical

I think maybe I should've said "corpse" rather than "skeleton". the effect is more of horror than shock

vzn

gallows humor o_O ... but alas it really is like an "execution"... of his future credibility/ reputation...

Semiclassical

Hence why I think I'm in the "let's not talk about it" camp now

vzn

there is something diplomatic to say.

bolbteppa

Ah you're allowed embarrass yourself a load of times after doing all he did

Semiclassical

3:05 AM

I guess

bolbteppa

This is just going to be a real high stakes one :\

Semiclassical

@bolbteppa like I noted earlier, this is one of the few instances where I'd be curious about LM's reaction

vzn

was reading Conways biography on that guardian article, and he seems to hang around the university/ be "tolerated" as a sort of semi-advisor role... semiretired... Nash went thru similar phases in his life (at younger age)...

Semiclassical

@vzn yeah. the main difference is how much press this has gotten already

vzn

@Semiclassical if the mathematicians/ academia around him had persuaded him to retire instead of trying to "discreetly" avoid the situation, maybe this wouldnt have happened...

Semiclassical

3:08 AM

shrug

tbh I'm surprised this 'fine structure constant' business hasn't shown up in the press up to now

i guess it flew under people's radar because he was talking at a math conference?

(that and people not wanting to call attention to it)

vzn

the press wrote articles on perelman as he "retreated into seclusion"... suspect/ guess something like those are on the way shortly for Atiyah...

bolbteppa

Motl didn't even bring it up in his post, I'd say if he seen it...

I feel like the math people wont catch on to how out there it is to go on about the fine structure constant

Semiclassical

yeah

bolbteppa

I guess it's the physics analogue of questioning the reals or something, maybe less harsh than that though

Semiclassical

and, i mean, I wouldn't have thought to look to that talk if it weren't for the "preprint"

bolbteppa

3:12 AM

I meant to give it a bit of a listen and decided it'd be like his spinor talk

Maybe it's like (the reverse of?) trying to derive pi from acceleration or something insane (yes there are people who have claimed this)

vzn

fine structure constant/ other physics constants "derivations" is aaronson criteria #9 in disguise. it also rather remarkable how aaronson avoids the whole topic/ concept of "crankery/ crackpottery"

bolbteppa

Yeah where is the Baez one

math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html

Semiclassical

It hits 10 in my book, on the grounds that pretty much any 'derivation' of the fine structure constant is going to be wimpy given how essentially physical the fine structure constant is

You started from pi, did something mysterious, and claim to get alpha out?

"As an analogy, suppose your friend in Boston blindfolded you, drove you around for twenty minutes, then took the blindfold off and claimed you were now in Beijing. Yes, you do see Chinese signs and pagoda roofs, and no, you can’t immediately disprove him — but based on your knowledge of both cars and geography, isn’t it more likely you’re just in Chinatown?...We start in Boston, we end up in Beijing, and at no point is anything resembling an ocean ever crossed."

bolbteppa

So he has discovered the true value of electric charge based on math, is that what we're supposed to believe

Semiclassical

Of course, Scott's 10 signs are for math proofs

vzn

3:20 AM

@Semiclassical the techniques "referenced" are very deep and only understood by a few. but yeah, getting the result in "not that many pages" is nearly a red flag...

bolbteppa

Isn't there a book, 17 constants... Is it now 16

Semiclassical

so it's not surprising if they don't quite line up with how they'd work in physics

vzn

Erdos used to call "perfect proofs" as from "Gods book"... the unknown/ intractable perfect solution to Rubiks cube is called "Gods solution"...

bolbteppa

That's the kind of thinking he seems to be using in the talk anyway :p

Semiclassical

i linked this earlier, but my reaction remains

@bolbteppa this is LM's reaction to someone linking the ICM talk in a comment: "OK, I don't believe it will really be similar. The talk you embedded is nice but it is mostly composed of photographs of famous mathematicians! The talk tomorrow will have more beef, I surely hope. ;-)"

I really hope he only watched the first half hour and missed the fine structure constant stuff

bolbteppa

3:27 AM

Ahh

I was wondering if that was him

vzn

maybe it is something more like this (looking over reddit reactions to the preprints): he claims to be constructing very complex/ deep math objects in his definitions, and such objects exist as used by other (expert) mathematicians, but as he describes their properties (using highly technical vocabulary/ formalism), no such objects really exist when other mathematicians look at his (sketchy/ incomplete) descriptions.

Semiclassical

ya

bolbteppa

"Dirac's other example is the fine structure constant,
α=e24πϵ0ℏc≈1137.036.
That's arguably the most popular number among the physics-oriented numerologists. The idea has been that this is so simple to be defined that the calculation of the number in the final theory should be rather "straightforward". However, the electroweak theory showed us one reason why it isn't. "

motls.blogspot.com/2014/10/…

Semiclassical

yeah

bolbteppa

If he contradicts this with his next post on the RH it will be very interesting

Semiclassical

3:32 AM

As a contrast, I'll note that the sole mention on Peter Woit's blog is a commenter asking if he'd be addressing it, and Woit replying "No, and I don’t think others should be publicizing this story, for reasons that I won’t discuss here, but shouldn’t be hard to figure out."

bolbteppa

Oh man

vzn

@Semiclassical feel the mathematicians need to come right out and say it if they think hes now "unreliable" and then maybe some of this could have been averted. dislike the tiptoeing, whispering, and innuendo.

bolbteppa

Yeah it's very bizarre in a sense

vzn

as the expr goes beating around the bush...

Semiclassical

Again, I wonder if the fine structure constant business is flying under the radar

bolbteppa

3:36 AM

I wouldn't be as direct after seeing how this goes off to fine structure land

Semiclassical

It not being a red flag for mathematicians is understandable

For physicists, tho...

bolbteppa

Oh man reddit.com/r/math/comments/9icamx/…

Semiclassical

for me the most apt comment is the shortest: "depressing"

Secret

Why do people just love to relate the fine structure constant and the rest of QFT to any number theory?

vzn

Atiyah riemann proof: RIP

Semiclassical

3:41 AM

Because if you're going to tackle one mystery, you might as well tackle all of them at once

2

bolbteppa

ahahaha

Secret

but seeing patterns when there isn't any is very damaging to both fields

bolbteppa

So the Newton's gravitational constant thing must be real

Secret

We really need an anti-pattern filter routine

bolbteppa

We have that to look forward to

vzn

3:42 AM

@Secret the "damage" is mostly to Atiyahs reputation.

Secret

Meanwhile, I am still waiting for the news that will turn chemistry upside down

Semiclassical

(for future reference, the sarcasm tag is most definitely in effect)

bolbteppa

Seems like someone should have stopped this and at least let him write it up and have people around him judge it without putting it out

Secret

pretty hard considering everything tend to get livestream nowadays

::bows to our social media overlords::

Semiclassical

@bolbteppa Well, that's probably what's going on with the preprint he indicates to have sent off to Proceedings A of the Royal Society

bolbteppa

3:45 AM

Oh man

So the 6 spheres thing

vzn

@bolbteppa maybe something like that happened, who knows right now. something is going on "behind the scenes"...

bolbteppa

and the Feit thing

Semiclassical

but he's presumably the one who had the choice of topic for the Heidelberg talk

bolbteppa

Were probably in line with the fine structure thinking and the math people are taking it at face value?

Secret

6-sphere says: I am simply complex

Semiclassical

3:47 AM

@bolbteppa not sure what you mean

bolbteppa

His Commutative Algebra book is still insanely hard at least

Semiclassical

I do wonder if the math reaction to S6 or Feit was nearly as visceral as my reaction to alpha was

bolbteppa

Did we post the Serre comments

Semiclassical

I haven't seen them

vzn

lost his marbles™

bolbteppa

3:52 AM

reddit.com/r/math/comments/9hl35w/…

(Not on this sorry, older Feit thing)

vzn

Not even wrong

The phrase "not even wrong" describes an argument or explanation that purports to be scientific but is based on invalid reasoning or speculative premises that can neither be proven correct nor falsified. Hence, it refers to statements that cannot be discussed in a rigorous, scientific sense. For a meaningful discussion on whether a certain statement is true or false, the statement must satisfy the criterion called "falsifiability"—the inherent possibility for the statement to be tested and found false. In this sense, the phrase "not even wrong" is synonymous to "nonfalsifiable".The phrase i...

bolbteppa

Seems a lot more reasonable now: reddit.com/r/math/comments/9hl35w/…

vzn

DOA

Semiclassical

i think there's also just the simple fact that, absent other context, "Atiyah claims to have a proof of the Riemann hypothesis" is not totally incredible

so the natural reaction is to be generous and open-minded

the problem is that, in context, that reaction is not a helpful one

bolbteppa

I think not really knowing the RH or the issues with how hard it is, all you have to go on is the hope he did it, experts just say this shouldn't be taking place :p

Sir Cumference

3:59 AM

Such a detailed and thoughtful answer

Semiclassical

I mean, it's worth keeping in mind the following: Suppose we weren't physicists, and so the fine-structure constant issue weren't a red flag

then we might well still be thinking that he should be given a chance to make his case, and that people should pay attention

bolbteppa

Yeah

I'm not sure of the right math analogue that covers all bases

Semiclassical

A simple proof of P=NP, maybe

which loops us back to scott aaronson, lol

bolbteppa

Proving the Riemann Hypothesis is probably the analogue of 'deriving' the fine structure constant :p

Semiclassical

Maybe

"a simple proof based on a radically new approach", at least

Leaky Nun

4:03 AM

@bolbteppa isn't it 1/137?

bolbteppa

$\approx 1/137$

Leaky Nun

good enough for physicists

Semiclassical

it's a handy approximation, at any rate

vzn

@bolbteppa the "not bad news" category, at least Atiyah doesnt seem to qualify for any of that although Baez doesnt mention fine structure constant near-numerology...

Semiclassical

@vzn I wonder if that's a matter of not knowing the particulars or not wanting to discuss them

bolbteppa

4:06 AM

Yeah the Baez thing is not really applicable

vzn

> 10 points for claiming that your work is on the cutting edge of a "paradigm shift".

↑ lol eeks had a feeling something like that would happen :P

bolbteppa

I guess it would be like saying the Bernoulli numbers are like the 'primes' of set theory because they arise 'everywhere' even though they are an artifact of approximation methods most of the time

I can't really find a great analogy

vzn

also, not mentioned in Baez list, famous open problems both math + physics are crank magnets. interestingly have written myself on connections of Riemann between both fields, which are definitely taken quite seriously by both camps...

Semiclassical

yeah

hence why I really do wonder if LM watched that entire ICM talk

vzn

aha!

> 5 points for each mention of "Einstien", "Hawkins" or "Feynmann".

bolbteppa

4:09 AM

I doubt it at this stage after seeing his essay on the fine structure constant

vzn

(oh he spelled Feynman correctly but sometimes not me yikes lol, no points for correct spellings?) :P

Semiclassical

@bolbteppa yeah

vzn

maybe this one? related to what was saying earlier

> 10 points for each new term you invent and use without properly defining it.

> 20 points for talking about how great your theory is, but never actually explaining it.

bolbteppa

Someone noticed the fine structure constant thing reddit.com/r/math/comments/9icamx/…

vzn

lol another one hitting close to home yeeks

> 30 points for suggesting that Einstein, in his later years, was groping his way towards the ideas you now advocate.

rob

4:12 AM

The Baez checklist seems to be designed to get your nutty uncle to quit bothering you with his "very stable genious discoveries." Atiyah seems to be in a different category: a distinguished mathematician who may be spouting nonsense in his old age.

Semiclassical

yeah

vzn

@rob as listed, its not entirely inapplicable. but yeah its more aimed at crackpots/ cranks. so nice we have some actual criteria for "diagnosis" from experts in the field(s).

bolbteppa

My sense is everybody will be sympathetic to the fact that's probably what's going on

rob

There are some other example in physics. Schrodinger wrote some bibble-babble about consciousness in his old age.

Semiclassical

ugh, consciousness

bolbteppa

4:15 AM

Most of them in physics are probably examples, Einstein, Schrodinger, deBroglie, Heisenberg :p

vzn

this is an old Theoretical Computer Science take/ angle on the topic (have studied this area somewhat for years...) there is a page kept by Woeginger of P vs NP "proofs" oft cited...

Semiclassical

i think it's a little unfair to lump them all into that basket, tho. there can be people whose minds are perfectly sound, who simply are convinced that others aren't seeing something

vzn

12

Q: Is it ok to ask about the correctness of preprints on crank-friendly topics?

See this question in which someone asked for an update on the status of an arxiv preprint on graph isomorphism. It was downvoted, with a comment "Are this kind of discussions on-topic here? I think there are too many claims of P = NP, P ≠ NP, etc. in ArXiv and elsewhere.", but my own feeling is t...

bolbteppa

Gell-Mann talks about seeing one of Einsteins last crazy talks:

Murray Gell-Mann - Einstein (33/200)

►

vzn

@Semiclassical a clearcut sign of crankery is they cant comprehend direct objections to their claims. it can be mild or severe, verging on delusional. mental health is the elephant in the room around these topics. there are those saying that Atiyah has some element of not listening to feedback/ objections by peers at this stage...

CaptainAmerica16

4:21 AM

So this is where everyone went. May I join the discussion?

Semiclassical

this feels less like a discussion and more like an opening verse of 'American Pie'

vzn

eg some, quite a few of Baez's points touch on "delusions (of grandeur/ persecution)" which are recognized signs of some mental illnesses.

Semiclassical

Bye, bye Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry
And them good ole boys were drinking whiskey and rye
Singin' this'll be the day that I die
This'll be the day that I die

vzn

huh?

Semiclassical

musical allusion

the mental image (for me, at least) being of people learning of a tragedy and going out to drink at a bar

CaptainAmerica16

4:24 AM

A long long time ago
I can still remember how
That music used to make me smile
And I knew if I had my chance
That I could make those people dance
And maybe they'd be happy for a while

(Opening verse)

Semiclassical

yeah, when I say "an opening verse" I mean "everything before the key change"

vzn

@Semiclassical did you know the history of that song? "the day the music died"?

Semiclassical

yeah. the plane crash that killed buddy holly, richie valens, and jp richardson

CaptainAmerica16

Confession: I've never heard the song before.

vzn

yeah exactly. was just comparing this situation to a "slow or fast motion train wreck" o_O yes there is some element of ("scientific"/ "human") tragedy here.

Semiclassical

4:27 AM

at least, that's the context. there's a lot going on in that song, though, and I'm not sure there's a clear consensus on what it's all supposed to mean

bolbteppa

idk about this talk, but who let the fine structure one go on

Semiclassical

yeah, that's far more glaring in retrospect

bolbteppa

qft just rips up all your intuition and laughs at you, even with "constants"

rob

I've heard that American Pie was one of the first songs to have they lyrics printed in the album liner notes, which led to a lot more dissection than there had been on previous songs.

vzn

maybe you live in interesting times™ (chinese curse) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times

bolbteppa

4:32 AM

There interviews with him are incredible youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVV0r6CmEsFzjttuP9WTFDzu0oAOJBM_3

CaptainAmerica16

@Semiclassical What does any of this mean anymore? At this point, we're basically going to watch Atiyah give his "last hurrah". It's one thing to give an incomprehensible presentation on an obscure subject only "really smart people" know about, it's a whole other thing to claim to have proved one of the most famous problems of current-day mathematics - and then give an incomprehensible presentation. Not saying it will be, but I'm feeling a little pessimistic.

Semiclassical

"A little pessimistic" was me before I watched the ICM talk

Leaky Nun

@Semiclassical and now?

Semiclassical

2 hours ago, by Semiclassical

alternatively: " Adlai Stevenson told this story in his nationally-televised concession speech after the 1952 presidential election: “Someone asked me, as I came in, down on the street, how I felt, and I was reminded of a story that a fellow-townsman of ours used to tell—Abraham Lincoln. They asked him how he felt once after an unsuccessful election. He said that he was too old to cry, but it hurt too much to laugh.”"

vzn

@bolbteppa wow yeah. a lot on math + physics connections. something on Oppenheimer. etc, worth further looks, itd be great if someone could write a summary somewhere, transcripts would be great

CaptainAmerica16

4:36 AM

I'm not too old to cry.

vzn

re biography from earlier, conway liked to wear a tshirt around campus (among others). “Are you crying? There’s no crying! THERE’S NO CRYING IN MATH CLASS!” theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/23/…

CaptainAmerica16

@Semiclassical seriously though. I feel really sad right now and I don't really know why. Well, I know why - I just don't know why I care so much.

It's too late. The tears are already stinging the corners of my eyes.

Semiclassical

Because it's not how we want the story to go

CaptainAmerica16

@VZN try telling that to most of the kids in America. I'm pretty sure math is the number one cause of tears to anyone under 18. Common Core everyone *Slow claps *Choked laughter *Suppressed tears

Semiclassical

We want this story to have a happy ending, with Atiyah proving the doubters wrong and going out with a bang

vzn

4:41 AM

@CaptainAmerica16 science is a human activity & tragedy is part of being human...

Semiclassical

But not all stories have happy endings.

vzn

some of my sadness (yes have that also) and re Hilbert quote, is that maybe Riemann may not be solved in my lifetime...! :( :'(

CaptainAmerica16

@Semiclassical @vzn Yes, I suppose that was a large part of my excitement. To be able to grow old and say: "I attended the original live stream revealing the proof of the Riemann Hypothesis!" It's becoming much more of a fantasy now.

Semiclassical

My own hope was that, even if he hadn't managed to prove it, that he'd be wrong in an interesting way

vzn

@CaptainAmerica16 anyway though, do have confidence we will see a major scientific event/ victory in the new cyber era play out, dont know which one, maybe one of the other millenium prize problems... stay tuned :)

@Semiclassical that was also some of my initial feeling and think its mostly dissipated now... :(

CaptainAmerica16

4:47 AM

@Semiclassical I worry he'll just be flat-out wrong. Or worse - no one will be able to understand what he's trying to explain. 3 more hours until show-time.

Semiclassical

Well, note that I'm speaking in past tense.

At this point, the Nash scenario seems more and more plausible, which is a gut punch

CaptainAmerica16

@vzn True, many new things about prime numbers have recently been discovered. Cryptography!

@Semiclassical Ah, yes. I seem to have missed that. :(

Secret

> 10 points for claiming that your work is on the cutting edge of a "paradigm shift".

what this world really need is not a paradigm shift, but a paradigm overhaul

Semiclassical

paradigm critique

rob

@Secret This is an example of the extremification of language.

Secret

4:49 AM

This world is sooooooo broken ever since the 9/11 attacks

@rob indeed indeed

rob

A "paradigm shift" is an overhaul of one's entire worldview.

Semiclassical

In tropes terms, I think the relevant phrase is Reality Ensures. (warning, TVTropes link)

rob

It's like how early superhero comics have the heros stopping purse-snatchers and burglars, but later ones have them saving the world from catastrophe.

CaptainAmerica16

@rob That's actually really insightful, I feel like I can understand what you're saying but can't put it into words.

Secret

A paradigm overhaul will thus be an overhaul of the overhaul of one's entire worldview. :P

rob

4:53 AM

@CaptainAmerica16 I read about extremification in comic books when my kids were little and watching a lot of Thomas the Tank Engine.

In early seasons of Thomas the Tank Engine, the plots are like "Thomas and Percy are silly and a delivery is late. Sir Toppemhat is cross."

In later ones the plots are like "THOMAS MUST PREVENT SODOR FROM SINKING INTO THE SEA"

CaptainAmerica16

@Secret A world-view twice overturned. It's back where it began lol

Secret

not necessary unless it is classical as $\neg\neg A \neq A$

Too many people do not understand how much bigger the set "non A" is compared to A :P

CaptainAmerica16

@rob Totally see where you're coming from. I spend a lot of time with small children. One of the most recent episodes had Thomas saving his friends from a collapsed mine. It's amazing what trains can do.

Secret

I wonder...

rob

@CaptainAmerica16 I liked the ones where the big catastrophe was that someone got cross. That's a great plot for a three-year-old.

Secret

4:56 AM

$$\lim_{\text{extremification} \to \infty} \text{Plot}= ?$$

Semiclassical

plotification

CaptainAmerica16

@rob It all feeds into the younger generations' grandiose idea of self-importance. Not all of course, everyone fails to realize that not everything is a dramatic adventure where a star comes out on top. Sometimes life is just life.

@rob I still have recent memories of the dramatic girls at school feeling the need to save others from the harsh "bullying" of being told the truth.

@rob Of course that probably didn't come out as clear as I had hoped...

Rumplestillskin

5:23 AM

Can someone quickly provide me with a sanity check! Given a function $f = f(r(t),t) $. Is $\partial f / \partial t = d f/dt$?

Secret

$\frac{df}{dt}=\frac{\partial f}{\partial t} (\frac{dr}{dt} + 1)$

Danu

7:43 AM

@ACuriousMind the Heidelberg Laureate Forum streaming thing needs "Heidelberger Institut für Theoretische Studien" login credentials. WE NEED YOU!!!

ACuriousMind

@Danu I don't have any login credentials anymore

Danu

I figured...

But I'm still baffled by the fact that the homepage of the Forum has a link "livestream" and then it's behind a login wall

sad life

ACuriousMind

There appears to be a working stream on twitter, of all things

https://www.pscp.tv/w/bniOQTF4TlFheEp4WlJxRWJ8MXpxSlZMZXFYWURLQmLQdH-Z42brcagI20wEPdUCrZsay2xGI9kJN2BXbrbF

Tweeted by HLForum on September 24, 2018 at 7:48 AM

The quality is awful, though

Danu

better than nothing

looks like someone is filming it themselves??

ACuriousMind

Yeah, it's from the phone of whoever is responsible for the twitter account I guess?

Slereah

7:56 AM

Morning

Danu

Probably their official strim crashed due to public demand?

ACuriousMind

Yeah, their website is down for me, too

Danu

they really should've prepared it better lol

ACuriousMind

They apparently didn't anticipate that a talk on the proof of the RH would garner that much interest :P

Danu

BY ATIYAH

who everybody knows isn't doing so well

they really should've thought about it

Leaky Nun

8:01 AM

let's go on beating the dead horse

Slereah

@ACuriousMind everybody loves complex analysis

ACuriousMind

@Slereah Well, it is much better than real analysis!

Danu

^

Slereah

Too bad you can't use it for $\mathbb{R}^3$

Danu

8:18 AM

Just complexify it and take a real slice at the end

Slereah

Let's invent the three dimensional complex space

The Tertinions

$z = x + i y + jz$

Danu

So, summary of the situation: Unfortunately, the worst case scenario seems to be true, the preprints that appeared earlier this weekend are real and the purported proof doesn't seem to be anything of a proof after all.

Leaky Nun

this concludes the livestream

now it's clear that we mathematicians can't read the paper about fine structure constant

drive.google.com/file/d/1WNbTDKljpUR-4im-IxqluY1tKer88-mH/view

so maybe you physicists can help us

Danu

:(

Slereah

8:35 AM

@Danu Shock and surprise!

Is Atiyah doing numerology now

did he contract the Old Physicist Disease

Rumplestillskin

A friend of mine asked me for help with a question that goes like: 2 trains X and Y leave the station at the same time. For the first half of it's journey train X went 1km/h faster than train Y. For the second half it went 1km/h slower than train Y. For the whole journey train Y travelled at a constant speed. Which train reached it's destination first.

My solution

I used the distance equals speed multiplied by time formula so for train 1 we have $$ d = (V_y + 1)t_1 + (V_y-1)t_1$$ so $$t_1 = \frac{d}{2V_y}$$ and in a similar fashion I got $$t_2 = d/V_y$$. Because $$t_1 < t_2 $$ I get that train X arrives first?

But it says the other way? Any suggestions?

where $$V_y$$ is velocity of train Y and $$d$$ is the equal distance travelled by each train

Anonymous

9:03 AM

@Danu Is there any discussion online? I missed the live stream (not that I could follow it..but)

Danu

9:27 AM

@Blue The preprints are online and e.g. here one can find some discussion.

Anonymous

9:56 AM

@Danu Thanks

Anonymous

Anyway: motls.blogspot.com/2018/09/…

bolbteppa

11:17 AM

Went as expected :(

GPhys

heidelberg-laureate-forum.org/contact <- link to chastise them for making money off of him like this

ACuriousMind

@GPhys Not that I think they haven't done anything wrong, but how exactly are they making money off this?

It's a foundation funded by the Klaus Tschira foundation, they shouldn't (need to) generate any income.

GPhys

I just assumed; perhaps they do not

I certainly don't have any specific knowledge of such

ACuriousMind

People can make bad decisions even where there's no money involved :P

GPhys

apparently

bolbteppa

11:33 AM

(idk why it wont work)

Apparently the RH was a "bonus" in this fine structure quest :(

ACuriousMind

On a brighter note, Lamport's talk was one of the most accessible explanations of why computer scientists care about invariants I've heard in a while.

ACuriousMind

12:13 PM

And on an entirely unrelated note: Walking with two feet after you couldn't for several weeks feels weird.