The h Bar

ACuriousMind

4:00 PM

Oh, no, you do mean Green's formula

0celo7

Usually one sees Green's formula as $$\int_A h\Delta f +Dh\cdot Df =\int_{\partial A}h\, n(f)\, d\mathcal H^{n-1}$$

But I recalled from measure theory seeing a more general one

I think this is what I need to work with

AccidentalFourierTransform

get it? its green

oh wikipedia, youre so funny

Secret

One of the most unexpected place to find the Laplace transform:

in Mathematics, 2 mins ago, by Secret

Btw, because all the about results (except the conjectures, which is to be checked) can be bijected back to all the reals, and that the base $b$ is arbitrary. We can then pick $b=e$ to get something familar to all of us:

$$F(1)=\int_0^{\infty}f(x)e^{-x}dx$$

which is the Laplace transform of a function evaluated at $s=1$

0celo7

@ACuriousMind Here is the logic for $\Delta u=f$ with Neumann conditions...One wants $$\int_\Omega Du\cdot Dv\,dx=\int_\Omega fv\, d\sigma$$ for $u\in H^1(\Omega)$ and for all $v\in H^1(\Omega)$

Mostafa

@0celo7 Are you interested in solid state physics?

0celo7

4:03 PM

Once one knows that $u\in C^2(\bar \Omega)$ and that $\Delta u=f$ classically, one can use Green's formula to conclude that $\int_{\partial\Omega} v \,n(u)\, d\sigma=0$ for every $v\in C^\infty(\bar\Omega)$.

By some extension theory, one can conclude this holds for every $v\in C^\infty_0(\partial\Omega)$.

Thus $n(u)=0$ on the boundary. But this is only possible because the PDE is so nice.

I'm having trouble formulating a weak equation for a more general PDE like $$(a^{ij}u_j)_i=f$$

Mostafa

@Mostafa Your profile says you are. shame on you, as a mathematician.

@Mostafa nice I just pinged myself and replied to myself

0celo7

@EmilioPisanty I emailed a beamline scientist at APS asking for detailed advice...after 10 days I get "It seems like a straightforward mail-in experiment, as there will be no radioactive properties of your samples. I would highly suggest you submit a mail-in experiment for these measurements."

@Mostafa Shame on me?

Mostafa

@0celo7 yes.

0celo7

Don't bother talking to me again.

Mostafa

@0celo7 Why?

You were the only one everyone could talk freely without being concerned too much. You have changed

ACuriousMind

4:12 PM

Well, you can't be surprised that saying "shame on you" to someone for their interests didn't elicit a positive reaction now, can you?

0celo7

@ACuriousMind Huh. Using Green's theorem gave $n_i g^{ij}\partial_j u=0$....

AccidentalFourierTransform

You Used To Be Cool. You've Changed, Man.

►

0celo7

So I'm not totally insane.

I just recovered the Riemannian condition "zero normal at the boundary"

Mostafa

@ACuriousMind I clearly didn't mean that

0celo7

But this is the geometric normal, not the Riemannian normal

Mostafa

4:15 PM

@ACuriousMind Take a look at this

Jul 7 '16 at 18:35, by ACuriousMind

@0celo7 You do not know that all massless vector bosons are gauge bosons and protected from acquiring mass by gauge symmetry? Shame on you! ;P

and other examples therein.

ACuriousMind

@Mostafa You'll note that either there's a clear indication it's a joke (like ';)' or ';P') or the people talking to each other have a rather long rapport with one another. Obviously 0celo7 didn't think you were joking at all, and nothing in your message indicates that you are. If you want to make jokes, maybe you should try to make them a little more obvious

@0celo7 Soo...you're back at yesterday's problem?

Mostafa

@ACuriousMind There are lots of issues with ^.

but I'm not going to continue this

0celo7

@ACuriousMind I don't know...this is surprisingly (maybe not surprisingly) complicated.

@ACuriousMind Does the issue make sense at least? For elliptic regularity I need to use the Euclidean normal, but my weak solution is for the Riemannian one.

Now I have this weird condition $n_i g^{ij} \partial_ju=0$, which is a mix of the two.

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 yeah, I think it does

0celo7

@ACuriousMind On the other hand, people solve equations with Robin boundary conditions $a u+bn(u)=0$

Emilio Pisanty

4:32 PM

@0celo7 so... all's well that ends well?

@ACuriousMind weirdly enough the chat user still exists.

but with no parent user

ACuriousMind

@EmilioPisanty Chat's a complete mess in terms of functionality and integration with what happens on the site...

Emilio Pisanty

so, wait, does that mean that Chris White's chat user still exists?

ACuriousMind

Oddly enough, that one is gone. Don't ask me how chat decides which ones to keep

Maybe there's a cleanup routine that runs every once in a while, I have genuinely no idea

Emilio Pisanty

yeah, so it seems. odd.

sorry, I mean

yeah, so it seems. SAD!

0celo7

4:48 PM

@Slereah is it possibly to diagonalize the metric in an open set?

igor

all of my questions and rep evoporated

why

ACuriousMind

@igor Ah, yes. I suggest you log in to your previous account (or the email address associated with it) and read the message you have received there.

igor

this is the only account i have

i just went out for a run

left the tab open

ACuriousMind

@igor We have reason to believe that is a lie, but this is not the place to discuss it. If you believe you have been the victim of an error, please use the contact us form (choose 'other').

igor

i had another one

i forgot

and i got the message

@ACuriousMind so what is the system restriction that i have circumvented

0celo7

5:01 PM

@ACuriousMind ahhhhh

Maybe $\nu^j=g^{ij}n_i$ is the Riemannian normal

maybe $g^{ij}$ rotates the geometric normal into the Riemannian one

ACuriousMind

@igor It is already called out in the message you have received - your old account was not allowed to ask any questions anymore due to the volume of poorly received questions you had asked (cf. also meta.stackexchange.com/q/291142/263383). If you have further replies and/or questions, please consider using the feature of replying to the moderator message instead of this chat.

@0celo7 "Maybe" as in "this would fix everything magically" or as in "I have actual reason to belive that's true"? ;)

0celo7

@ACuriousMind You got me :o

ACuriousMind

Hehe

0celo7

@ACuriousMind Aha. The problem is stemming from the fact that the surface measures are not the same.

The surface integral I get in the Riemannian case and the one I get in the chart are simply different integrals.

vzn

5:34 PM

in theory salon, 32 secs ago, by vzn

qm computing summer 2017 / Tmachine blog

DanielSank

5:50 PM

Hi, everybody.

Space Otter

Is there a place where you can find all the community wiki posts?
@JohnRennie

Loong

@SpaceOtter physics.stackexchange.com/search?q=wiki%3Ayes

Space Otter

Say I was looking for a specific post could I search for "wiki:yes general relativity"? @loong

Loong

yes

Space Otter

Thank you

Slereah

6:11 PM

@0celo7 A whole open set?

I doubt it

dmckee

6:54 PM

@EmilioPisanty ::chuckles:: Almost eveyone pays lip service to the idea, of course. And I'd say a solid majority of working scientists feel that way in the abstract, but ...

At the end of the day you have to get paid and you have to build a career if you want access to the resources to let you purse that glittering ideal—not to mention pursing the respect of your peers.

Emilio Pisanty

@dmckee yeah, well

one starting point would be to make it explicit and acknowledge out in the open that science doesn't get made without people paying for it and that it's an intrinsic part of the process

instead of tut-tutting at others the way Nature does in that link above

(chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/38829342#38829342)

dmckee

I do make students who talk about pursuing a career in science aware of retractionwatch.com .

Not sure what the actual results are, but I figure letting them see that discovery and consequences do happen can't hurt.

For that matter it can't help but give them some confidence that they can report scientific skullduggery to some effect.

Anonymous

7:33 PM

Is Goodman's Fourier Optics a good book for beginners ? (Asumming I just know high school level ray optics and wave optics).

Mostafa

@Blue It's a rather basic book. But it would help if you knew multivariable calculus (Green's identity especifically), and had some familiarity with Fourier transforms and signal processing.

Emilio Pisanty

I sense a change in the Force

I sense an upset in the balance

I... what happened there, @DavidZ? you just got overtaken by some upstart?

Mostafa

@ACuriousMind I agree that I have a rather negative view toward physicians. that's probably because doctors here (in Iran) have a much higher average income than doctors in the US or Germany for example, while giving much lower quality services to their patients.

there are many doctors here with a monthly income of more than $130k, while paying no (or very low) taxes, and treat patients very bad. Note that Iran's GDP (PPP) per capita is like one third that of the US.

For example, a physics professor at our university (or elsewhere) is paid like $4k per month.

Sid

7:52 PM

@Mostafa Holy... >130k$ monthly? You are exaggerating.

Mostafa

@Sid All the reports are in Persian otherwise I could give you the link

Sid

Try to give the link. Maybe google can translate. :)

Mostafa

For example, this; which is an interview with an Iranian doctor working in Germany

Sid

Also, US 4K$ per month is very high amount actually.

Mostafa

@Sid The title is Iranian doctors have 5 times the income of German doctors (in average)

Anonymous

7:58 PM

@Mostafa I know the basics of multuvariable calculus and Green's function. And I'll try to learn Fourier transforms soon. BTW the book seems too costly. Gotta make do with a pdf version I guess. Thanks for the review though. :)

Mostafa

@Sid What?? is that too much for a professor of physics with 20 years of experience?

New faculty members are paid close to $1k per month.

@Blue Print the pdf ;)

ACuriousMind

@EmilioPisanty Hey! ;P

Anonymous

@Mostafa That's too much compared to the average Indian physics professor. The average is Rs. 20,000 per month here. That's why people are so scared to take up Physics during their undergraduation over here.

ACuriousMind

@Mostafa Ah, well, obviously I can't comment on the situation in Iran specifically since I know nothing about that. I would caution against transferring your view of individuals or your opinions about the economic situation into a general judgement of the discipline at large, though

Mostafa

@Blue what about the doctors?

ACuriousMind

8:02 PM

@Blue Without careful comparisons of the costs of living, it's pretty difficult to judge relative value of salaries across borders.

Mithrandir24601

@Sid For a physics professor? Not in the likes of US/UK

Anonymous

@Mostafa Doctors earn a hell lot over here. Similar to the figures you mentioned.

Mostafa

@Blue I really feel cheated when I see these!

Anonymous

We have such a huge population and so many people falling sick everyday. So it's natural that they will earn a lot. :P

David Z

@EmilioPisanty ???

Anonymous

8:05 PM

@ACuriousMind Well yeah. But the living costs of india and Iran aren't much different. Correct me if I am wrong.

Mostafa

@Blue the first 5 chapters constitute the core of the book and are rather easy to read. chapter 6 is a little more difficult

ACuriousMind

@Blue I have genuinely no idea

@DavidZ I think he's referring to me overtaking you in total rep ;)

David Z

Oh.

I haven't paid attention to the rep standings in a long time.

Anonymous

@Mostafa Oh I see. I should get started with it!

0celo7

@Slereah some open set

Mostafa

8:15 PM

@heather beware of this huge income disparity if you're going to study physics/math (even engineering)

heather

hmm, what?

haven't really been paying attention here =)

Mostafa

@heather physicians salary compared to physicists'

heather

what do I care what physicians get paid?

i just want to do physics or computer science or engineering or something along those lines because I enjoy it.

Mostafa

(I don't know why this thing has become a rather great concern for me in the past few weeks!)

@heather You don't enjoy money?

heather

sure, I enjoy money. but physics is better =) besides, you can make a decent salary/living with physics.

so....i don't see why i need to worry.

0celo7

8:19 PM

Why are we talking about physicians

@heather I think you're taking an awfully cavalier view for a kid.

And we've had this conversation before.

Mostafa

3 mins ago, by Mostafa

(I don't know why this thing has become a rather great concern for me in the past few weeks!)

heather

@0celo7 aren't kids supposed to be cavalier? and anyway, you can make a decent salary with a physics, math, cs, or engineering degree. i enjoy those subjects. I don't see why I need to worry about what a physician makes if I'm happy and making a living.

0celo7

@Mostafa physicians are medical doctors

@heather Look, the only person here who is actually raising a family on a professor's salary complains. The other left academia for money.

Mostafa

@0celo7 So? I dont get what you mean

0celo7

@Mostafa I don't see what physicians have to do with a physics chat.

Emilio Pisanty

8:23 PM

@DavidZ yeah, that. I was so used to tracking behind @ACuriousMind that it took me aback a bit.

Mostafa

@0celo7 you're right but....my question is, how do you get along with this huge economic disparity between you (as a mth/physics student) and the medicine majors?

Emilio Pisanty

But then rep+awarded bounties puts me in sixth place, so there

vzn

lol @ 0celo7, recordholding block count, talking about heather as "cavalier" :P

heather

@0celo7 1. there are jobs available to those with physics degrees outside of academia/professorship. 2. um...i don't have a family and it's not like I plan on getting married right away. if i do, things could change. I honestly don't really get your point.

I'd like to do physics, and I don't much care about how much it pays relative to how much a doctor gets paid.

How's that "cavalier"?

dmckee

@Mostafa Industrial physics pays better than academic physics. Much better if you on't confine your view of academia to only top research institutions.

0celo7

8:26 PM

@heather I don't understand what doctors have to do with this either.

@Mostafa ???

doctors take out a quarter million dollars in loans have have responsibilities

dmckee

I'm engaged in a job search right now, and I can expect to get nearly six-figures right away if I land a US federal government job (with the sweet bennies that come with it). More if I land a good job in industry. That's may not be quite as much as a physician, but it is in the same league.

Semiclassical

The word I'd use is 'blithe', but I chalk myself up as fairly cynical about academia now

Sid

@Mostafa Physicians will argue that they save lives while Physicists can only make lives better not necessarily save them.

Semiclassical

The amount of debt a typical physics student racks up vs that of a med student is also different

0celo7

@Sid Many physicists will not make lives better either.

dmckee

8:29 PM

It is certainly the case that "makes life-or-death decisions on a regular basis" as part of a job description correlates strongly with pay.

Mostafa

In that case, the problem would be that I chose physical sciences in order to do high quality research, because I enjoyed solving challenging problems, thinking, etc. .
I could just become a physician if I wanted to go in other industaries for a higher income.

dmckee

Just look at the difference in what a engineer makes before and after getting her "professional" cert.

Semiclassical

Physicians may get paid well, but the amount of debt accumulated is also pretty high

dmckee

@Mostafa That. Researchers get compensated in part by the satisfaction of their jobs, and the pay shows it.

I'd do research for less than other tasks because I want to do research.

vzn

@heather commend you for that attitude, its positive. btw "physician" word seems ambiguous in this context. if you havent noticed 0celo7 tends to be a bit )( cynical at times :|

Semiclassical

8:31 PM

Grad school may be a grinder but typically you're getting funding and some pay as a grad assistant

Can't say the same about med school

As far as industry goes, what I find appealing about it vs academia is not so much financial success (make lots of money) so much as financial stability

Anonymous

@Semiclassical Which "debt" are you referring to ?

Semiclassical

Student loans

dmckee

@Blue In the US most med students run up considerable debt in the course of their education.

Semiclassical

I have med school tuition in mind for that

Anonymous

@Semiclassical Oh, here it is very very cheap if you study in a government medical college. In India.

dmckee

8:38 PM

As in enought to buy a modest family house in fly-over country. Or more.

Sid

Too cheap actually.

Semiclassical

I don't know the numbers tbh

Anonymous

Like Rs. 10,000 for 5 years of study.

Sid

If you compare it to Engineering or basic sciences, it is quite cheap.

@blue Not that much cheap.

Anonymous

@Sid That's the fee structure of Calcutta Medical College

Anonymous

8:39 PM

Don't know about others

Semiclassical

Here's one source: amainsure.com/physicians-in-focus/…

Mostafa

@Blue same here. almost free

dmckee

@Sid Hmmm .... I wonder if that is intentional. You need doctors on the ground to bring the advantages of modernity to the country-side, while the engineers can come and go as the projects need doing.

Semiclassical

Median indebtedness as $175,000 is a pretty eye-popping figure, and it's not the only such stat in the article

dmckee

If so I would also expect nursing training to be cheaper than comparable tracks in outher fields.

Sid

8:40 PM

Huh, it's actually quite cheap. AIIMS Delhi has a fee of <10,000 Rs.

Mostafa

One of my friends, after he got his bsc in EE (4 years) started studying medicine (that takes 7 years here). This is happening here quite a lot these days

Anonymous

@Sid Exactly. The best place to do pursue MBBS are the developing countries.

Emilio Pisanty

Fun fact: the yearly fee at UNAM in Mexico is MXN 0.20

Anonymous

@Mostafa Yeah. Same here. I know many who dropped out of engineering to pursue MBBS degrees. It is difficult to get a seat at government colleges here though. So it is common to repeat 2-3 years to crack the competitive exams.

Semiclassical

Makes the US system sound pretty crazy by comparison (though tuition is hardly the only metric)

Anonymous

8:45 PM

US education is really costly tbh. But the quality of education is probably much better.

Anonymous

(As far as physical sciences are concerned)

Mostafa

8:58 PM

@Blue Very competitve here too, with one major difference: here military service is mandatory (for boys). If you don't get accepted into a university for the 2nd year, you have to do your military service. Result:around %65 of all medical students are girls.

Now, doesn't regretting this wrong choice (physics/math) give you enough motivation to build a time machine and get back and choose medicine?

Anonymous

@Mostafa Oh! How many years of mandatory military service ?

Mostafa

@Blue 21 months

dmckee

@Semiclassical The system in the US is idiosyncratic to say the least. Not exactly nationalized, but anything but 'private'.

AccidentalFourierTransform

ive been trying to simplify an expression for days now and for the life of me I cannot do it

maybe it cannot be simplified :-(

it makes me sad

Mostafa

@AccidentalFourierTransform use Simplify[expr, assum] im Mathematica

dmckee

9:07 PM

The government forces lenders to take all comers and for any course of study, but guarantees that they won't lose on any of the loans. Of course, that costs way more than the people pushing it said ti would, so then they made federally guaranteed student debt nearly impossible to discharge in bankruptcy.

Anonymous

Wooo! Crazy :P On the other hand here we have an excess of people looking for military jobs. People have to appear in an competitive exam called NDA or something to serve in the military. The irony is that the NDA test contains subjects like Physics, Mathematics and GK. Physical fitness is not the first priority XD

AccidentalFourierTransform

@Mostafa not even FullSimplify could do it ;_;

dmckee

All and all it is a big give away to the banks that allows student to pursue courses of study which offer exceedingly slim chances of ever paying the debts they incur.

Anonymous

@dmckee Why isn't the tax-payer's money used to reduce the cost of education in the US ? Any particular reason ?

dmckee

Because "What are you, dude? Some kinda damn communist?"

ACuriousMind

9:12 PM

@Blue That would be Communism(TM)

jinx @dmckee :P

Anonymous

Or does the US spend way too much on defense budgets? :P

dmckee

Or to be more serious because tertiary education is considered a privilege.

AccidentalFourierTransform

you cannot "reduce the cost of education". You can, at best (worst?), distribute it

dmckee

^ That too.

Mostafa

@ACuriousMind Here it's free. Does that mean we are communists?

dmckee

9:14 PM

Though one could argue that widespread tertiary education has a degree of "floats all boats" effect.

ACuriousMind

@Mostafa About as communist as we Germans, since there's no tuition here either...

dmckee

But that doesn't go any where politically, because the people getting the education partake of a bigger share of the return than Joe Taxpayer.

@Mostafa It means that much of the US electorate has a very stark view of government handouts. The use of the word "communist" is hyperbole in some mouths but is believed in some heads.

Go figure.

AccidentalFourierTransform

#Bernie2020

vzn

alternet.org/economy/…

Mostafa

#Bernie2018
(after impeachment)

ACuriousMind

9:18 PM

@dmckee I think a very basic disconnect is that many Americans seem to conceive of education, in particular tertiary education, as a commodity to be bought and sold, while for those who think it should be "free" (yes, yes, it's not free, someone is still paying for it) see it more as a basic service an advanced society relying on knowledge should offer its citizens

Anonymous

@dmckee it's considered a privilege everywhere. But I guess at least for the hard-working/sincere students (like the top 5-10 percent) the taxes should be utilized for their education. But then again...there's no fool-proof way to judge which students constitute the top 5-10 percent....

dmckee

@ACuriousMind Can't argue with that. It doesn't help that there are elements in society that don't want people making careful, structured, rational inquiry into their cherished beliefs and traditions.

Mostafa

@Blue something like JEE could help. (or even SAT scores)

AccidentalFourierTransform

shouldn't the government regard "free education" as the friggin best long-term investment one could make?

I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me

war in the short term, education in the long term

here, economy 101

ACuriousMind

@Mostafa I don't think putting even more pressure on Indian students is the way to go...

Semiclassical

9:25 PM

The trend in the US tends to be "privatize the gains, socialize the losses"

AccidentalFourierTransform

I guess they know what they are doing

Mostafa

@AccidentalFourierTransform I guess politicians love people who think like this ;)

AccidentalFourierTransform

( ͜。 ͡ʖ ͜。)

Anonymous

@Mostafa No. A single test is never useful in judging students. I would prefer looking at the past 10 years track record of the students (including school work and extra curriculars) who wish to pursue tertiary education at lower costs. Also a personality test might be useful.

Semiclassical

Yeah, I'm too cynical at this point to have much trust in authority

Emilio Pisanty

9:27 PM

@AccidentalFourierTransform ExpToTrig@Simplify@Expand@TrigToExp, maybe?

worked wonders for me the other day

ACuriousMind

@AccidentalFourierTransform Something appears to be wrong with your face

DanielSank

It never stops fascinating me how readily non-USA folks criticize our economic system while simultaneously trying to come here for work.

AccidentalFourierTransform

@EmilioPisanty :-)

DanielSank

I am not defending or endorsing the USA's economic/social system. I simply find the facts interesting.

Semiclassical

Though I'm also too cynical to think there's much I can do, so practically speaking I'm in the same boat

AccidentalFourierTransform

9:29 PM

but no, not really helpful here

Emilio Pisanty

@AccidentalFourierTransform did it actually work?

DanielSank

@EmilioPisanty Did what actually work?

dmckee

@AccidentalFourierTransform Well ... some.

Emilio Pisanty

@DanielSank my misclick, obviously

AccidentalFourierTransform

@ACuriousMind you should see the real one

dmckee

9:29 PM

Keep in mind that left to their own devices many students chose courses of study with which they can't pay back their loans.

DanielSank

@dmckee Yes this too is fascinating.

Student loans ought to depend on the course of study. Do they?

Semiclassical

I wonder a little at that. Some statistics would help clarify it

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank I'm not trying to get your job, don't worry ;)

dmckee

So you might—assuming you were King For The Day—want to regard free-education-of-enough-people-in-the-right-fields as the best frigging investment.

DanielSank

@dmckee Yah.

dmckee

9:31 PM

But that puts you in the business of dictating what people can do and that get's right up the typical American's nose.

Semiclassical

There's also the general US mindset of "you can be anything!!"

DanielSank

@ACuriousMind Eh? I don't worry about foreign workers taking high tech jobs in the US. If anything, I think it's dumb that we make it so hard for college educated tech students to stay here when they're done studying.

Anonymous

@DanielSank Every system has faults. The salary in US and the standards of living is much higher compared to most developing countries and that is why so many people wish to go there. However, i feel it is wrong that education is so expensive in the US that most students are left with student debts.

dmckee

Monty Python - Constitutional Peasants Scene (HD)

►

Emilio Pisanty

@dmckee ah, that music

puts you in a good mood any day

DanielSank

9:32 PM

@Blue It's not just people from developing countries.

I work with a Dutch guy who spends half his breath criticizing US culture and economic practices.

Semiclassical

Higher education tends to be presented in a way that decouples it from economics

Presented to students at any rate

dmckee

@DanielSank Nope. That's part of the deal by which the banks are guaranteed to not lose money on any student loan: they don't get to discriminate.

DanielSank

@dmckee How does that help banks not lose money?! o_O

@Semiclassical Yes, and this is a horrible disservice to students.

ACuriousMind

@dmckee Of course, instead of making no education free, making all education free also solves that problem of dictating what people do. Sure, you get a bunch of destined-to-be-taxi-drivers grads, but the question is whether that's actually so bad a tradeoff.

dmckee

@DanielSank Congress promised to pay them back for any loses.

No. Really.

DanielSank

9:34 PM

^ Ah.

I did not know that.

dmckee

And were surprised when it turned out to cost ahellofalot.

And that was when they made it essentially impossible to discharge student loan debt.

DanielSank

@ACuriousMind Well here's the thing: the US hosts a lot of tech etc. businesses. So the one data point we have (i.e. the reality we live in) is that whatever we're doing kinda works.

I'm not saying we can't do better! I simply have no idea.

dmckee

If you wrote the sequence of events as a plot point in a story people's suspension of disbelieve would turn off because no one could possibly be that naive.

No one except a congressman, it seems.

Emilio Pisanty

@dmckee also, there's a still from the Holy Grail in my thesis ::grin::

DanielSank

It's just that... your comment about college-educated taxi drivers could suggest that educating everyone with a college education is an ideal to which we should aspire, and I just don't have any particular reason to agree.

Anonymous

9:36 PM

@DanielSank lol. Then something is really wrong with that particular guy. :'D

Semiclassical

@dmckee "Socialize the losses" seems like a pretty good description of that

Emilio Pisanty

@DanielSank (some aspects of) whatever you're doing

DanielSank

@EmilioPisanty Yes. I argue no further than that.

Anonymous

"half his breath" XD

Emilio Pisanty

@DanielSank then I agree with you

dmckee

9:36 PM

@Semiclassical Congress taking on the losses could be characterized as socializing them.

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank I'm not sure whether the number of certain businesses - or indeed how good the economy is doing - is a measure of the quality/success of the education systems, since there are so many other factors deciding where businesses are located.

DanielSank

@ACuriousMind I didn't say anything about the quality of the educational system.

dmckee

@Semiclassical Sticking the debt to the poor sucker who spent US120,000 to get a degree in creative writing even if they declare bankruptcy is something else entirely.

DanielSank

Although I would point out that way more students come here for college than vice versa.

dmckee

^ Even more so for grad school.

DanielSank

9:38 PM

@dmckee Frankly, I just think you shouldn't be allowed to give that loan.

That's a recipe for disaster.

dmckee

Which suggests that something good is happening here along with all the pure, 100% refined WTF.

DanielSank

Or at least, the mathematics need to account for your expected earnings.

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank "Everyone should get a college education" is different from "Everyone should be able to get a college education in the same manner they get a school education".

Semiclassical

True, though somehow it seems wrong to call that privatization @dmckee

dmckee

@DanielSank Yes. But then you're too smart to get into congress. Or something.

DanielSank

9:38 PM

^ Roger

::dismantles plans to run for Dictator::

Semiclassical

Re congress, there's an old line (Sinclair Lewis, maybe)

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank I don't think you need to get into Congress to become a dictator. Congress with the devil, maybe... ;)

DanielSank

@ACuriousMind Ehhhh, I dunno.

dmckee

34 mins ago, by dmckee

@Semiclassical The system in the US is idiosyncratic to say the least. Not exactly nationalized, but anything but 'private'.

Semiclassical

It's very hard to convince a man of something when his salary depends on him not understanding it

ACuriousMind

9:40 PM

@DanielSank You dunno whether these are different or whether you agree with the second statement (I get the latter but not the former :P)?

DanielSank

Is a college education really that valuable all by itself? Did I really need my freshman year writing course? No. How about those two semesters of philosophy? No.

@ACuriousMind I agree that they're different.

I'm not convinced that "college for everyone" makes sense. I just don't know.

So much of college was wasted for me and I'm a friggin' physicist!

dmckee

@DanielSank A lot has been written about the notion of "A liberal education" in the US model.

vzn

@Semiclassical --Upton Sinclair

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank Ah, I think another problem here may be that American college education is simply very different from the European way - when I think of university education, I already think of specialized training in a specific discipline - we don't do that general education stuff here after we're out of school.

DanielSank

I'm sure. I remember discussing this with my European friends in college.

dmckee

9:42 PM

I'm largely a fan for those who are ready for it, but it is of little use to those who come to college as a job placement service for desk work.

Mostafa

@DanielSank I find this very similar to this quote of Lubos Motl: Science has been done without women for centuries, and it obviously worked. ;)

DanielSank

@ACuriousMind Yeah I know, the systems are rather different. Interestingly, I have several times met Europeans (or those who were educated under the system you describe) who point out that the American system has a huge advantage in allowing for those who don't understand their calling until their 20's or beyond.

Semiclassical

@vzn bah, I always forget him

DanielSank

@Mostafa I think that's unfair.

I agree that everyone should have access to college.

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank Yeah, I know and it's a valid point - I know many who switched their fields of study after some time (sometimes close to getting a degree) because they realized that wasn't what they wanted to do

DanielSank

9:44 PM

@ACuriousMind In the US or in European system?

ACuriousMind

In the European system

DanielSank

Ah, so it can happen there too.

Very good.

ACuriousMind

(I was supporting your point about the American system perhaps being better for those who are a bit slow in hearing their calling)

AccidentalFourierTransform

"the American system perhaps being better for those who are a bit slow."

DanielSank

E.g. both of my brothers were English majors. Now one runs business deals with a translation company and the other is a programmer.

What was the value of college for them? It's hard to say.

Emilio Pisanty

9:47 PM

@DanielSank both sound like excellent uses of an English major

dmckee

@DanielSank Employer read a completed degree (almost any completed degree) as a sign that you can show up on time, work to deadlines and communication at the minimum level needed for a business environment.

ACuriousMind

@AccidentalFourierTransform :P

DanielSank

It's all rather complex. Does the case of my brothers suggest that college is useless, or does it suggest that liberal arts education is really valuable?!

dmckee

In effect it serves as a union card for access to white-collar environments.

DanielSank

@dmckee I've heard that many times.

It makes some sense.

Emilio Pisanty

9:52 PM

@DanielSank is that a standard quip?

first time I hear it

0celo7

Same

Emilio Pisanty

it's a good description

DanielSank

@EmilioPisanty Not the exact wording, but the idea that a college degree is a prerequisite to white-collar jobs is very commonly known.

Emilio Pisanty

@DanielSank who knows. in any case "liberal arts" as a college model is pretty exclusive to the US, I think, so you'll have to tell us

Semiclassical

A necessary but not always sufficient condition, though

Emilio Pisanty

9:53 PM

@Semiclassical much like a union card

Mostafa

@dmckee Almsot all of the top students here go to the US (or Canada) for grad school. but almost %100 of them wouldn't go if didn't get full financial support from the university.

DanielSank

@EmilioPisanty Well I have no idea.

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank The crucial point about that statement is how, exactly, you define "access". It can vary pretty wildly. For instance, German education has very little finanical hurdles, yet the "heritability" of education (proportion of people getting a degree whose parents also had a degree) is higher than in many other countries, leading some to argue that something is blocking access to children of parents without degrees.

DanielSank

@ACuriousMind "Something" there is family culture.

AccidentalFourierTransform

It may be. It may not.

DanielSank

9:55 PM

You can't "fix" that unless you randomize children among all families, which is so obviously a terrible idea that perhaps we don't really have to discuss it?

Emilio Pisanty

@ACuriousMind yeah, but the German system has plenty of bizarre aspects

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank Of course that's a possible explanation, but that in itself doesn't explain why it should be a higher influence in German education than in other countries

Emilio Pisanty

starting with the Oracle of Doom decision at age 11

AccidentalFourierTransform

lol

DanielSank

@ACuriousMind It's worse in Germany?

Emilio Pisanty

9:56 PM

it's true

ACuriousMind

@AccidentalFourierTransform He's...not wrong :P

Emilio Pisanty

toldja

AccidentalFourierTransform

I know I know

0celo7

@EmilioPisanty I don't remember it being a "Doom" decision

You got recommended for whatever, but your parents could override

DanielSank

Wait, what?

ACuriousMind

9:57 PM

@DanielSank Yes - unless I misremember, the effect of the family's education on the child's education in Germany is higher than in many other countries.

DanielSank

There's a thing when you're 11?

0celo7

@DanielSank Yes

Emilio Pisanty

@0celo7 if you don't go to a Gymnasium from age 11, it is still possible to go to uni

DanielSank

@ACuriousMind I wonder if that's related to Germanic peoples' obsession with titles.

AccidentalFourierTransform

the German education system was a whole chapter in one of my books (I studied German for a couple of years back in the day, I dont know why)

Anonymous

9:57 PM

@Mostafa Here grad school students are paid for attending college but still the top students go abroad (even if they have to spend from their pockets) as they would get much better and higher paying jobs there. Also the research environment is better in US/Europe..

Emilio Pisanty

but it will cost you two or three extra years of reconversion after you finish Realhochschule or whatever

and yes, it's not some external body making decisions for you

0celo7

@EmilioPisanty I don't know if it is, but most people went to the Gymnasium

"Most"

Most people who mattered in my eyes at least

Emilio Pisanty

@0celo7 most people you met in a university environment?

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank I'm also pretty sure that it was higher when compared against Scandinavians or other Middle Europeans, but at that point I should probably find the exact studies I'm vaguely remembering...

0celo7

@EmilioPisanty Huh? When I was in Grundschule.

Emilio Pisanty

9:59 PM

@0celo7 ah, gotcha

0celo7

@EmilioPisanty turns out we have a monster in a basement somewhere on campus

DanielSank

A friend of mine said he knew someone who was having trouble finding a flat in Vienna until he started using his "Dr." title, at which time he immediately got something and the landlord put a plaque on the building reading "Residence of Dr. Whatever".

Emilio Pisanty

@0celo7 is that an XPES setup?

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