The h Bar

ACuriousMind

12:00 AM

@ChrisWhite Well, it's not as if I never said that before :P

HDE 226868

@ACuriousMind I haven't seen too many outright lies in the ones I read - at least, not that I can tell.

Kevin Driscoll

So, if that's what one really believes, then what one should do is make the argument precise. Propose a mathematical formalism and a physical experiment to test its predictions.

ACuriousMind

@HDE226868 I don't mean outright lies, I mean lies-to-children.

John Duffield

@HDE226868 : on a side note I'm forever pointing out that the electron has an electromagnetic field. You cannot contrive a field that's only an electric field, with no magnetic aspect for the observer with relative motion. This means the electron doesn't really have an electric charge per se. IMHO it would be better to call it electromagnetic charge. Which IMHO throws a new light on the notion of magnetic charge.

user54412

I'm somewhat split. On the one hand, I've been taught many untruths that did me no good. On the other hand, many of those were from college professors and college textbooks. Sometimes I find myself defending popsci because I feel it is being held to a different nitpicking standard.

ACuriousMind

12:02 AM

If they would be more upfront about the "simplified explanation" thing and made it more transparent that the actual relality is more complicated, I'd not be against it. But most pop-sci I see presents itself as giving laymen accurate understanding without all the work one has to do as a scientist to gain it.

@KevinDriscoll I completely agree. Yet I've never seen this statement made precise, and it certainly isn't true within the standard formalism

user54412

(At some level, I get the same feeling defending popsci against nitpicking as I get defending physics against mathematicians. Take that statement however you like.)

alarge

@ACuriousMind I disagree: people do understand that these are simplifications. In the same way as when they read about less technical subjects, such as history, people do understand that what they are being told is a simplification.

ACuriousMind

@ChrisWhite Not sure how I'd like to take that statement ;)

alarge

In many ways popsci books do still tell you what the stuff is about and what is kind of possible to do using it. And that is what matters to most people.

John Duffield

@KevinDriscoll : there's been various attempts, but they're all fringe as far as I know. IMHO the important thing missing from QED is how gamma gamma pair production actually works. It's as if the Standard Model has great big gaps in it, and there's this veritable cornucopia of low-hanging fruit, but people spend their whole lives looking up.

user54412

12:06 AM

@ACuriousMind Neither is the mathematician inside of me.

Slereah

@alarge Then how do you explain JD

ACuriousMind

@alarge Then why do we get all these questions like "If X is true, then why is Y?" where X is a simplified explanation. If people were aware of that, they'd ask something like "How can Y be explained given that X doesn't work here?". (With "us" getting questions I don't only mean on this site, I also get asked such questions by non-physicists in real life, and I'm sure others experience the same)

John Duffield

I think lies to children have a nasty habit of morphing into lies to junior physicists, who grow up believing them. Then we're into cargo-cult science. For example, take a look at gamma-gamma pair production:

"From quantum electrodynamics it can be found that photons cannot couple directly to each other, since they carry no charge, but they can interact through higher-order processes[clarification needed]. A photon can, within the bounds of the uncertainty principle, fluctuate into a charged fermion–antifermion pair, to either of which the other photon can couple." This is a tautology. Pair production does not occur because pair production occurred, spontaneously, like worms from mud.

ACuriousMind

(And the "If X is true" part is additionally often formulated in a kind of anticipation of having found a contradiction in physics as a layman)

Slereah

"A Gravitational Shielding Based on ZnS:Ag Phosphor"

"It was shown that there is a practical possibility of gravity control on electroluminescent (EL) materials (physics/0109060). We present here a type
Gravitational Shielding based on an EL phosphor namely zinc sulfide doped with
silver (ZnS:Ag ) which can reduce the cost of the Gravitational Motor previously
presented."

:D

ACuriousMind

12:11 AM

@Qmechanic: Since I've misused the tag before, is this a resource-recommendation or a specfiic-reference?

user54412

@ACuriousMind Do you think a lack of popsci would hurt enrollment in physics? (whether high enrollment is good or not is a separate question)

Kevin Driscoll

@Slereah Are you jus ttrawling the arxiv for these?

Slereah

No

Just looking at the random files I have in my science folder

Kevin Driscoll

Ah, where were the papers downloaded from originally?

user54412

vixra? :P

Slereah

12:13 AM

Hard to say

Various places

user54412

do you meet sketchy paper dealers in back alleys at night?

Slereah

When you look for closed timelike curves and wormhole papers, you end up on a lot of weird papers

Kevin Driscoll

@ChrisWhite Oh dear, is vixra the neo-reactionary, fringe alternative to the arxiv?

Slereah

Although not as many as you'd think

@KevinDriscoll : Vixra is Arxiv without peer review

There are papers written by Jesus Christ on Vixra

John Duffield

@Slereah : Then how do you explain JD? Simple. I will not sit idly by and watch physics go to hell in a handcart. I will do my bit to combat ignorance and arrogance and stupidity and woo.

ACuriousMind

12:14 AM

@ChrisWhite I'm not sure. I mean, yes, it would, but I am completely uncertain about the extent

alarge

@ACuriousMind I think this is a different phenomenon, and needs not have anything to do with having been told lies-to-children. You have the same thing in every technical forum. Lot of people for some reason think they are naturally gifted at something that they are not (cf. American Idol). I'm sure there's some psychological phenomenon behind this with a name and all.

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