Canada - discussion on closures

Rory Alsop

16:59

@Canada-Area51Proposal this should suit

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

How and why exactly aren't my questions of music history or composition? The existing feedback don't answer this.

Rory Alsop

So - rather than attempt to have a discussion with you in comments when you keep editing the question, chat is definitely the better place.

@Canada-Area51Proposal Have you actually not been reading all the comments back? Let me start with the Brutalist one:

Your title - Is there brutalist music...that doesn't hurt the listener

the whole second half of that sentence is starting from a false assumption

The entire thing is opinion based, not composition

It doesn't matter that you are asking in the vague direction of history or composition - that question is not about either

I could say, yeah - there are a few pieces I like. But then I also like Norwegian Death metal

I get that you have a strong interest in Xenakis, but that doesn't make any question about Xenakis' music on topic

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(1) 'the whole second half of that sentence is starting from a false assumption' : This may be, but why not leave the question open and then correct me? This is a question of rightness, not of scope?

Rory Alsop

> It doesn't matter that you are asking in the vague direction of history or composition - that question is not about either

That's like me asking if there was anything produced by Abba that I would like

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(2) "
The entire thing is opinion based" : For once, we agree. But music can be opinion-based.

(3) Because I'm not a musician, how can I remove the personal part of the question? How can I focus it on music history/composition?

I'd be thankful for your help.

Rory Alsop

17:06

@Canada-Area51Proposal you need to come up with a question that is about music / composition

If the questions you are coming up with aren't on those topics, I can't help you create them

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

But the difficulty is that I do believe these to be questions about music.

Rory Alsop

If we look at all your Xenakis ones:

"why did he compose music that hurt..." - who knows

"Is his music intended to express" - who knows

"How does ignoring math affect your reaction" - who knows

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

But these are questions of music history then.

Or is there something about music composition or history that I'm missing?

Rory Alsop

None of them are answerable definitively unless you ask Xenakis for the first two, and then ask everyone for their different opinions for the third

Ergo - the first 2 are off topic unless there is published docuemntation on Xenakis' thoughts

and the 3rd one is always off topic as too broad

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

Isn't this true of most questions of music history? We can't answer questions about composers or their works unless we ask them?

Rory Alsop

17:08

@Canada-Area51Proposal the thing you are missing is how Stack Exchange works

this is what all three of us mods have told you forever

and various high rep users have pointed out

@Canada-Area51Proposal you may have various questions of music history that are on topic here, and various ones that are off topic

If it doesn't fit in the SE model then it doesn't fit

We need to be able to give an actual answer to a well defined question, that is the right answer, and that will help future visitors

If you read the faq etc, which we keep providing links to, it explains all of this

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

I'm not sure how this answers my question overhead: (4)
Isn't this true of most questions of music history? We can't answer questions about composers or their works unless we ask them?

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal it doesn't answer that, because that is not the issue here

you may have various questions of music history that are on topic here, and various ones that are off topic

If it doesn't fit in the SE model then it doesn't fit

Dom

Another thing to keep in mind is the phrasing of the don't ask section: music.stackexchange.com/help/dont-ask

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

The on-topic page simply states "music history" though? It doesn't delve into which questions of music history fit or not?

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal you still need to meet all the other criteria

Dom

17:13

You can ask questions about music history, however not every history question makes sense to ask here.

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal and if you fully read the page @Dom linked to, it statesthis pretty clearly

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

Do we agree that the Xenakis questions are music history ones?

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal no - I think one of them may be, but it is still a bad question here

Dom

Just asking about a historic composer does not make it a history question.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

Perhaps this disagreement may be worth discussing, not only for my questions, but to help me better understand music history for my knowledge. Why don't you consider them music history ones?

Rory Alsop

17:16

@Canada-Area51Proposal why did composer X do Y? Is never going to be a good question here unless documentation exists to explain why.

Similarly the "is his music intended to..." question

And the 3rd one, as I said above, is nothing to do with history, and is entirely opinion based where every answer could be correct

I must reiterate - it really appears that you do not read and digest the comments made to you

You keep on asking the same questions over and over, and all the answers have been given to you in comments, and on pages linked

They are standard guidance to all SE visitors

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(5) As I understand it then, music history questions need documents to fit this SE? Correct?

Dom

Here's a good example of a music history question:

6

Q: When did the appearance of the quarter rest in music change from its original appearance?

WHEN did the appearance of the quarter rest in music change from its original appearance - as a backward looking number 7 -( ) to its current look ()? I have been searching the Internet with no luck. I know the original quarter rest looked like a backward eighth rest, so the design was changed c...

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal no. That is not what I said at all. I pointed out why your two questions (which aren't music history) are not answerable here

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

Thanks. Dom: To help me with future posts, can you please explain what that question has, which mine doesn't?

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

17:33

Hello?

If you need more time, I don't mind returning to this discussion later.

Dom

17:54

This is about a historically documented change in notation. It has a very objective answer and sources to back it up.

The questions you asked about Xenakis while being about a historic composer, are more about interpretation, finding examples, and knowing what he was thinking which aren't really good topics for the site in general whether it is historic or not.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

i agree that my questions are less objective.

(5) A separate question: will questions to which I linked be closed for off-topic? (6) If popular questions that don't fit the website, are left open, then they can mislead future users in posting unfit questions, as appears the case here?

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal I have looked at a couple already, and they seemed absolutely find. I have not yet gone through that full list you linked

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

To improve my understanding, can you please explain what the linked questions have, which mine don't? Dom's answer doesn't apply to them because the linked questions are far more subjective.

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal There are a lot, but I will try and give you some pointers if I get time over the next couple of weeks. The main thing to realise is they meet SE guidance so any direct comparison with yours wis not worthwhile effort.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(7) Can I please ask if you both were AFK from 17:33-17:54 GMT?

Rory: (8) It would help me to know exactly how they meet SE guidance, while you consider mine not to.

Dom

18:05

You can flag to close them if you think they should be closed like yours.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(9) To help others, would you mind if I made another Meta post asking how those questions meet SE guidance, WITHOUT any references to my questions?

Dom: Thanks. I'd rather not, because as I wrote overhead, I'm not a musicologist.

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal off the top of my head, the dance of the knights one is the only one that I would have thought about closing. The others all meet requirements as far as I could see.

Dom

And questions do slip though the cracks and some reflect earlier scopes that might not be exact anymore.

Rory Alsop

oh - and there was an odd one on technicality detracting from feeling or something similar. That one, I'm not sure about at all. I think if it was asked now it would be closed

@Canada-Area51Proposal That is not constructive at all. If you think one should be closed, you vote to close it like anyone else would.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(10) But I'm not trying to close questions. I'm trying to grasp the reasons that distinguish those questions from mine?

Rory Alsop

18:09

@Canada-Area51Proposal This is why I have once or twice mentioned that this site doesn't appear to work the way you want it to. There are a couple of other folks who also don't like the fact that the SE model and subjective sites don't perfectly match, and have left - which is a pity, but if you do find it difficult to see how to fit, it is worth looking at other sites.

SE is very different to online music discussion forums, where your questions may well go down better

@Canada-Area51Proposal your post would be very likely to get downvotes, as the SE guidelines are extensively documented

And the majority of those other questions you listed meet guidelines

SO it would be a rather pointless question - what you need to get your head around is why your ones don't

And @Dom's explanation was very straightforward, I thought

(much better than mine)

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(11) What do those questions have that mine don't?

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal they follow SE guidelines

Dom

It's not what they have it's what they are about.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

How do they follow SE guidelines, while mine don't?

Rory Alsop

with some possible exceptions as I alluded to up there, and those are probably historic (ie our standards were much more relaxed when we were initially growing)

Dom

18:12

Let's look at one example.

-1

Q: Is there Brutalist Music composed after 1900 that doesn't hurt the listener?

I enjoy, and have no problems with: Xenakis's tonal pieces (Six chansons pour piano), or inharmonic pieces with percussion (Pléïades). most (Post)Modernist composers like The Second Viennese School, Ligeti, Messiaen, Penderecki. Jan Swafford, M.M.A. D.M.A. (Yale). Slate article, 2011 July 1...

modern-music

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

Dom: Can you please analyse one of the linked questions, not mine?

Or we can compare mine with one of the linked questions?

Dom

In general, any question that is "Is there music that fits X, Y, or Z pattern" is not fit for the site.

@Canada-Area51Proposal there's really nothing to compare...

You do ask a more objective question inside of it of "So what exactly is brutalism in music?" which alone could be on topic.

But, asking us to find music for you is specifically of topic.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(12) But how the linked questions follow SE guidelines, while mine don't?

Dom: thanks.

Dom

Even if it doesn't it doesn't mean your question should be reopened.

And even if it doesn't fit the guidelines unless it's the exact same problem it's not really useful to talk about.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(12) I know. I'm asking not to reopen mine, but to understand better scope.

(13) The hitch is that the SE guidelines appear vague. Then how can I know if a question will fit? One approach is to refer to existing questions.

Dom

18:20

The guideline about find songs or resources is concrete which is what one of your questions was closed as.

opinion based is always trickier to describe.

Likewise there's no hard line for too broad.

We're very happy to help explain to you why questions were closed, but looking at every example that may or may not be slightly subjective in some way isn't going to be very fruitful for anyone.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(14) Back to (9), because another Meta post appears helpful, will you close it if I do so? Or can you allow me to post it, even if you don't judge it constructive?

(15) And I thank you both for your help. The hitch is that after our discussion, I still can't clinch the distinguishing reasons.

Dom

You can post it, however I doubt it will clear things up at this point and at this rate will be more confusing.

Because they're not the same types of questions

You have to think about what the question is asking and how it makes sense not only in the scope, but on a Q and A site in general.

I've also locked two questions that were from 2011 which were asking for examples.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

I do try to do this, but somehow these reasons still appear too hazy to me. (15) I need to rectify (9): I may need to refer to my questions as examples, but not to request their reopenings because I've already posted about this. Does this change your answer to my posting another Meta post?

Dom

Remember: as the site grows there's a different set of users who review close votes. The users here today are not the exact same that were here when the site first went to beta in 2011 and neither it the site's scope exactly the same.

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal A meta post will not help, and I can only seeing it causing problems. Seriously.

It misses the point entirely

As we have mentioned numerous times. If you think they don't you can vote to close. Others will agree or disagree with you

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

18:39

(16) I see that we differ on another meta post's helpfulness. But can I still post it as an attempt? Or will you close it?

(17) Why not ask about their scope first, before voting to close?

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal If it looks like it is causing issues, then I might. Or others might.

Let me reiterate though, comparing yours to those others is not the way to go about this.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

Rory: can you please answer (13)?

Rory Alsop

All you need to do is read and digest all the things Matthew, Dom, myself and others have been telling you all this time. When your posts are closed, read the materials. Read the full [about] and How to Ask pages. Read meta.se faq.

@Canada-Area51Proposal there seems to be a disconnect here in what we keep saying, and what you keep trying to read into things

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(14) Let me reiterate: I have done this. But the input so far still does not clarify which music history questions fit.

Rory Alsop

Much of what you seem to try and do in your questions would fit on a discussion forum. Not here

@Canada-Area51Proposal that is because that is not a good way to categorise questions

"Music History" is not the problem. You are not asking questions that are "music history" and fit within the SE model

So first: familiarise yourself with all the SE documentation

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

18:43

(15) Why not though? You keep referring to the input so far, but they appear too hazy.

Rory Alsop

then if you have a question, first see if it can fit in that model

Don't assume "music history = on topic" because that is incorrect

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(16) I wrote a minute ago that the documents appear too hazy.

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal how about this - they work for thousands of people. So somehow you need to work out how to understand them better.

I am unsure why they are hazy to you and the only assumption I can make is that you see SE as an online forum

The sooner you can dissuade yourself of that notion, the better

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(17) I haven't assumed that though.

Rory Alsop

All the questions you are asking here imply that

whether it is explicit or implicit

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

18:45

(18) Perhaps you can consider other reasons why working them can be difficult?

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal what does that mean?

and the numbers aren't helping in the slightest, by the way

Let's try another tack - your user name. Implies you want to create a Canada Area51 proposal, yes?

That shows a misunderstanding of Stack Exchange

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(19) Anyhow, I have to go, sorry. Can you please allow me to make that Meta post, and let other users input?

(18) Sorry: typo. "Perhaps you can consider other reasons why working them OUT can be difficult?"

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal I will reiterate. I think it will cause trouble and not be welcome, so if I see it looking like that I will remove it.

@Canada-Area51Proposal I don't know of any other reasons

if you have some, please tell

Dom

We can always update the on topic page if requested. The trouble we're having seeing where the disconnect is and pulling more example questions won't be the solutions.

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(20) I'm not sure that creating a Canada Area51 proposal shows a misunderstanding of Stack Exchange. One can ask objective questions about Canada.

Rory Alsop

18:49

@Canada-Area51Proposal Not in the Stack Exchange model

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(21) Can you please explain what you mean by "trouble"?

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal argument, annoyance from calling out other people's posts, other unspecified things that are likely to happen, because your approach seems to be very high friction

Even with Dom and I being very patient, you don't make things easy for people to try and help

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(22) "your approach seems to be very high friction": Can you please explain what you consider "high friction"? I've certainly tried not to cause this.

(23) I'm not sure why you believe that objective questions about Canada can't be asked in Stack Exchange?

Rory Alsop

Are you aware of any communication issues you have in general outside SE

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(24) Would you say that objective questions can be asked for Personal Productivity (where you're a moderator)?

Rory Alsop

18:52

@Canada-Area51Proposal I didn't say that. This is one example of your communication style having high friction

@Canada-Area51Proposal this is another - which I would class as almost troll-like

@Canada-Area51Proposal It is not a question that has an answer. SE is bad for subjective questions. SOme sites are more subjective than others

Objective questions are absolutely the way things work

PP is a challenging site, so we close a lot of subjective questions.

So the vast majority of all questions on PP are objective. This does not mean all objective questions are on topic

you see the problem?

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(25) I was referring to (20)? You wrote: "Not in the Stack Exchange model". What might have I misunderstood?

Rory Alsop

@Canada-Area51Proposal nothing to do with subjectivity or objectivity - as I wrote

Similar to why there is unlikely to ever be a site for any country

A country SE site makes no sense

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(26) Is this not for users to decide by voting?

Rory Alsop

If you have questions about travel in Canada - we have a travel site. Politics in Canada - yes, we have a politics site. Law in canada - there is a law site etc

@Canada-Area51Proposal of course, but look at the model

and you will see why it makes no sense

SE own the model and the framework

it doesn't matter if users vote for something if it doesn't fit - see the multiple attempts at a sex stack exchange site.

Not gonna happen, despite the upvotes

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(27) About "you don't make things easy for people to try and help" - I've offered to create a Meta post to let others educate me on what distinguishes fit and unfit questions. But it would be easier if we can agree to this?

Rory Alsop

18:58

@Canada-Area51Proposal that is not what the meta question you have described will do at all

@Canada-Area51Proposal what I know it will do is annoy people if you write it the way you have described

All those who own posts you name

Canada - Area 51 Proposal

(28) How should such a post be written then?

if you don't mind, perhaps you may be better able to do this?

Rory Alsop

And it will not give you the answers you want if the conversations you have had with Dom, Matthew and myself have not given them

@Canada-Area51Proposal I fundamentally cannot understand why you think doing it would give you anything new

@Canada-Area51Proposal I wouldn't do it. Full stop. I keep saying this.

it makes no sense

@Canada-Area51Proposal no idea - it's quite possible

Transcript for

Canada - discussion on closures