Discussion on answer by Physics-Compute: How to deal with unwanted attention at the swimming pool?

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17:40

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A: How to deal with unwanted attention at the swimming pool?

Because you're asking this question on Interpersonal skills and not on a police dispatch line, I'm assuming you are inquiring about how to approach this tete a tete (head to head, or one on one). The other answers are assuming a crime without knowing all the details and assuming you want to take...

Johnny

No man should think that 'not interested, thanks' when asked for a woman's number means "try harder, come grab me in the pool". If you wear something more revealing, flirtatious, form-fitting than the first encounter, this may be construed as inviting him to look/admire/stare. Wearing form-fitting clothing at the gym, especially at the pool, is not an invitation for a man to stare or even to approach you. It's normal gym attire, something any woman should be able to wear without harassment.

Anonymous

@Johnny Your first asside is unnecessary - I agree and already covered that in the answer. In reference to your second note, you took that completely out of context. Please re-read the full statement. I'm not understanding the point of your comment right now. Are you asking for clarification or to improve a specific point?

Johnny

I'm explaining why I downvoted your comment -- it comes off as victim blaming. Your post is implying that she's responsible for his behavior, perhaps she gave him a flirting look without mirrored goggles, or she dressed too provocatively, or maybe she had the audacity to stretch at the gym without shielding herself from view.

Anonymous

@Johnny She is asking about interpersonal behavior, both about the situation and about how she can interact within that situation to reach a particular outcome. I offered some possible reasoning about the situation and how she can act within the situation to reach her desired outcome, which is exactly what she's asking for. She doesn't need this site in order to call the police or call over security. The other answers don't really address the INTERpersonal aspect of this, which my answer attempts to do. I never said the behavior is not creepy.

Anonymous

@Johnny Where did I say she is responsible for round 1 behavior? Please explain why you think this is victim blaming - all suggested actions are follow-up actions. Please don't put words in my mouth, and re-read my post without framing your own context.

Monica Cellio

17:40

"Your first encounter played out very much like phase 1 of a pursuing game where he lets you know his intentions." What part of "no" ten times plus an explicit "I'm not interested" could possibly give you the impression that there was any doubt? This sounds an awful lot like "guys will be guys and it's up to women to seal themselves off, and even then they'll have to put up with some crap because maybe they don't mean it".

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Anonymous

@MonicaCellio Please re-read the answer without any thoughts or words injected by yourself or omitting passages - I stated that it personally does not take me anywhere near that number, as well that it should not take any guy 10 times to "get it."

Monica Cellio

I did read it. I read it last night when it appeared, said "is he nuts?", slept on it, and reread it today (with edits) before responding. Maybe you can't see it because, as you said, guys will be optimistic/dim/self-justifying/whatever guys, but much of your answer reads as victim-blaming and granting slack to the guy committing assault, and that's not ok. From the comments and votes it's clear that I'm not the only one who sees it that way. I suggest you rethink this answer.

Anonymous

@MonicaCellio I never once said assault is okay. The OP did not call it assault, and did not give enough detail to assume it was. He could have put his hand on her elbow or he could have grabbed her butt - we don't know unless she provides that information. That is all besides the point because she's not asking about charges, she's asking about how to deal with a persistent guy coming on to her with INTERPERSONAL skills. Frankly, if you don't think there's any interperonal aspect to the question, then you should flag the question as not appropriate for the site.

Monica Cellio

Where I live, unwanted physical contact after clear rejections is assault regardless of what he grabbed. But as you said, that's beside the point -- my point in commenting at all is that your answer reads as justifying his behavior, and if that's not what you meant you should fix that. If you don't understand why that's a problem, though, then I don't think I can help you any further. Comments aren't for discussions or argument but for trying to improve the post; if you can't or won't improve the post, then there's no point in continuing.

Anonymous

Let us continue this discussion in chat.

JMac

17:40

"Saying no 10 times is a hint enough to most men" That's not a hint. That's making it pretty darn clear that they aren't interested. Also "As long as you show no sign of interest, no flirting look, straying eye" what do you mean by "straying eye"? I'd probably want to keep an eye on the dude who didn't stop asking me out; but it wouldn't be because I'm interested.

Anonymous

@JMac First point - agreed, and is already covered. Second point - I mean that if he sees you looking at him directly, he'll know you're thinking about him, which can be mistaken for interest. You can keep tabs on someone's whereabouts without directly looking at them.

SnyperBunny

I could add more, but I'll just go with this: Everyone else commenting here is correct. This sounds like victim-blaming. Also, "From a man's perspective, it is really a guessing game at how assertive a woman likes prospective men to be" does NOT CHANGE the fact that "No" means "No". When "No" is interpreted to mean "try harder" that is basically rape/start of rape.

Anonymous

@SnyperBunny besides your ridiculous claim that conversation is rape, it sounds like we agree that 10 "no"s should be more than enough. Can you explain why you feel it's victim blaming? I can't make any improvements without something concrete. I have already (and will continue to) improved this answer to clear out anything that could be taken differently than intended.

user15026

@Physics-Compute "Pay attention to your attire in reference to your first encounter. If you wear something more revealing, flirtatious, form-fitting than the first encounter, this may be construed as inviting him to pursue again, and look/admire/stare at what you are displaying to him." This, this is where it sounds like victim blaming. What the OP chooses to wear should not invite people to assume they can take advantage of them.

Anonymous

@Ash Ahhh, I see where the people are misinterpreting the answer. They are thinking the listed items are for general use (all the time), not as an answer to the first encounter specifically with this individual. I'll adjust the wording.

Armada

17:40

Good answer. +1

SnyperBunny

@Physics-Compute I phrase my sentence poorly. Let me try again: When "No" is interpreted as "Try harder" that is the same attitude that leads to rape. "Oh, she/he is saying no, that means 'yes', obviously she/he wants this". Your phrase "From a man's perspective, it is really a guessing game at how assertive a woman likes prospective men to be" implies that 'some women want men to continue chasing them even after a very clear "NO"'. Although, I think you may have edited this a bit as I can't find the other phrase I would have copied.

Anne Daunted

" This is in reference to the ball being in her court for a response to the first encounter to that specific individual." Your newest edit makes it sound as if this was mutual. This guy overstepped his boundaries and molested her. He is the one who has to adjust his behaviour.

Anonymous

@AnneDaunted The OP did not use the term molest. The OP did not add the tag sexual-assault. We don't know where or how he touched her. If there was a crime being committed then this question doesn't even belong here - she should be calling the police. I tried to answer for the case that there was no crime. Since the question exists and is on this site, I have to assume there was no crime and she is genuinely asking about interpersonal skills. That is not to say he couldn't use some advice as well.

Anonymous

@SnyperBunny "some women want men to continue chasing them even after a very clear NO." There do exist a large subset of women that do want men to chase them after a 'gentle no'. The men should stop after a CLEAR NO. I'm not saying it's rational behavior to indicate you want continued chasing after a gentle no, I'm just saying it very clearly exists and is a thing. A CLEAR NO should be enough on the first time. What's the difference between a gentle and clear no? Legally they should be the same, but socially it can be gray. This guy is obviously bad at distinguishing the two.

Anne Daunted

The OP wrote "graped", so he either groped her or grabbed her - whatever, it was unwanted touching to which this person had no right at all. Also, the OP herself called it "sexual harassment", so doesn't it qualify as molesation - merriam-webster.com/dictionary/molest - especially considering his other behaviour?

Anonymous

17:40

@AnneDaunted Can you point to where the OP said it was sexual harassment? That would be helpful. If she did, then this question should be closed as the only answer is to call the police.

TBear

Given what OP has said, it is a fairly reasonable assumption that the guy was pushing far longer than he had any right to and likely even sexually assaulted OP. HOWEVER, @Physics-Compute is correct to provide an answer like this because OP did not tag with sexual-assault and because none of us were there and we don't have all of the details necessary to pass hard judgement. IF for some reason OP wanted to handle this herself instead of involving authorities, this answer provides some tips that may help.

Anne Daunted

@Physics-Compute "Can you point to where the OP said it was sexual harassment?" She describes her dilemma regarding the lifeguard in this way: "What should I do if I encounter him next time? Tell the lifeguard? But his job is to rescue people from the water, not from sexual harassment?"

user15026

17:50

@Physics-Compute If I look at you and go "no", is that a gentle no? a clear no? How do you define that? No is no, that's all there is to it.

user_null

22:23

I understand this is trying to use interpersonal skills to solve the issue, but the problem is that this answer reads as "avoid doing all these things and change your habits or you may be asking for a repeat performance," when I'd expect an actual interpersonal answer to be more along the lines of "this is exactly what you need to say and do next time to make it stop."

To put it another way, I don't see how this answer actually resolves the problem; it just makes suggestions for something that might work, but the other party still has to "get it." Subtly didn't appear to be a requirement in the question.

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