Maid Café (メイド喫茶)

Sakamoto

06:30

0

Q: Fear makes demons powerful and strong, but is the opposite also true?

In episode 6 of Chainsaw Man we see our heroes in a kind of loop, trapped on the eighth floor of a hotel from which they haven't found a solution to escape. As time went on, some of the characters started to fear the demon and then it became stronger due to this fear. In Chainsaw Man, being afrai...

chainsaw-man

SPArcheon

09:17

Attempt to make @Memor-x crash, Valentine Day edition.

If Homura buys some chocolate for Madoka, is that:
a) Tomo choco (because it is "friend" chocolate)
b) Jibun choco (because it is "favorite" chocolate)
c) Tomo choco (because it is chocolate from "Tomo(e)")

BTW, apparently...

Rest of the World, One Piece movie Red

Japan:

Sakamoto

11:36

0

Q: What was Lilith during all the time?

Followup-question to Who crucified Lilith? In Episode 14, Rei crucifies Lilith with the Lance of Longinus, this asks a serious question: Lilith landed on earth billions of years ago. What was Lilith doing during all the time between that and until she is crucified? Considering Lilith is an almost...

neon-genesis-evangelion

Memor-X

11:56

@SPArcheon wouldn't matter. so long as it's hand made with love which i can imagine Homura doing

@SPArcheon fuck i want this

SPArcheon

12:51

@Memor-X was supposed to have you leave in disgust as soon as you saw the "Tomo(e)" lame pun

Because Tomo(dachi) is friend, but she is called Tomoe... so "Tomo choco" could also be Tomoe chocolate.

@Memor-X rest of the world gets the lame bucket.

GratefulDisciple

14:05

@ペガサスSeiya Prompted by the mention in Math.SE chatroom, I watched a few Season 1 episodes of My Hero Academia. Would you say that's a good intro to the uninitiated about how fans love Japanese Anime heroes since it's tracking how a fanboy becomes a hero himself? Would you say it's similar to the attraction to Western comic book heroes as well? I didn't grew up with either, but I'm trying to discern what attracts youth and young adults to those heroes.

Second question: is there similarity between Harry Potter books to My Hero Academia in that both are schools for wizard/heroes and that the role models they look up to are graduates and "career" wizards/heroes solving problems in real life as well as resolving their psychological and relationship issues?

SPArcheon

shonen "adventure" manga VS DC/Marvel style superheroes. Imho, the difference is in the themes and story progression. Some time ago, in the attempt to develop an anime-based game a dev company came up with the F.E.V. core elements
Friendship->Effort->Victory.

In a Japanese "heroes" anime/manga I expect not only "hero fights foes and wins", I expect the other two themes to be there too.

notice that MHA is indeed focused on Deku, but the rest of the class has a role not only as support fighting fodder. The "F" is the central point.

I don't expect to see an episode of Batman and Robin just chilling out with Superman and the others at a Christmas eve dinner party. That is indeed a thing in MHA.

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Thanks. I can see right away those F.E.V elements in MHA.

SPArcheon

this also explains some odd "dissonances" you may notice.

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon How about movies that feature them together (I only hear about them, haven't watched them myself)? Would you say they're adopting anime F.E.V. ?

SPArcheon

@GratefulDisciple that was just what I was going to say next.... let me get there.

You may have noticed that Goku from Dragonball is an odd character. Despite being the main character many fans do not really like him.

Guess what?

Goku basically has only the "Victory". He shows less and less effort as the show goes one (random powerups coming from nowhere) and... basically has nothing in friendship

Dragonball has very little on the "characters heartwarming/friendship" theme.

GratefulDisciple

14:22

@SPArcheon I only watched the first episode of the very first series. I would have thought he develop friendship with the girl.

SPArcheon

@GratefulDisciple But this is another point...

You watchet Dragon Ball. The original series with KID Goku.

I was mostly talking about ADULT Goku.

And yep, even with one episode you hit the main difference.

relationships are more developed in the original show.

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Yup. I think I need to watch a lot more episodes and be exposed to more series to start talking about Dragonball.

Basically I'm trying to get the most efficient path to understand fans' attraction to anime heroes. How about Saint Seiya series; would that be more similar to MHA or Dragonball?

SPArcheon

Ironically, Dragon Ball Z starts with the idea of turning Goku into an expy of Superman, to the point that his "origin" is basically the same - super strong alien that came to earth, lost memory, other guys from his planet come to attack us.

@GratefulDisciple Saint Seiya is strongly hinged on friendship, with characters sacrificing for each other constantly.

so it is more MHA than DBZ

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Thanks. Going back to the adult Goku, what would be the primary plot drivers beside fighting enemies. Are there exploration or maturation of his psyche which is VERY obvious in the first few episodes of MHA?

SPArcheon

anyway, back to the DB Z line above, I find it a little odd. It is like by making Goku a Superman they also made the show more "DC" in a way, sacrificing some of the themes in the process.

@GratefulDisciple Sadly, Goku basically has no maturation. You could even say that his personalty becomes more flat as the story goes on

GratefulDisciple

14:30

@SPArcheon Would you say later Japanese heroes anime develop their distinctive Japanese elements after "copying" Superman, and hence later series have those F.E.V?

SPArcheon

KID Goku likes martial arts but as a way to improve both physically and at a spiritual level, probably because his adoptive uncle/grandpa taught him that. The adult version instead is just focused on "I want to fight strong foes".
Kid Goku loved to protect weaker people, adult Goku almost see that as a way to get to fight an enemy.

It is emblematic that he shows no form of remorse when in Dragon Ball Super he manages to get a divine-level entity to start a tournament between 8 universes that will end with the erasure of the 7 losers.

Yep, you read that well. Based on the information he has he should believe to have triggered the greatest genocide in history since it does not matter who wins, 7 universes worth of people will die.

Reaction is basically "COOL! I GET TO FIGHT! GHEEEE!"

@GratefulDisciple That I will leave for someone else to answer.

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Wow. If there is a revenge without remorse element there, it reminds me of STNG episode The Survivors.

SPArcheon

It is worth noticing that Tezuka Osamu is considered the father of Japanese Anime. His most know manga is Tetsuwan Atom

> The story follows Astro Boy, an android young boy with human emotions who is created by Umataro Tenma after the recent death of his son Tobio. Eventually, Astro is sold to a robot circus run by Hamegg, but is saved from his servitude by Professor Ochanomizu. Astro becomes a surrogate son to Ochanomizu who creates a robotic family for Astro and helps him to live a normal life like an average human boy, while accompanying him on adventure

You will notice that Friendship is clearly present in this one too.

In a way, I think it relates to WW2.

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Yes, it's not surprising that to do a cultural studies of anime we should definitely look at major artists and their lives in the real world.

Thorgott

No, I'd argue "Japanese anime heroes" don't exist in this sense in the first place. For Hero Academia, its lineage and inspiration are Western comic book heroes. Kouhei Horikoshi, the author, identified himself as a fan of Western superhero comics on multiple occasions. There is no real lineage of superhero type narratives in anime/manga that is analogous to superhero comics in the west.
If you consider the socio-political conditions under which these lineages came to be, the closest analogue to consider in Japanese media would be tokusatsu/mecha type narratives (which are very much distinc…

SPArcheon

14:43

On the western front, many comics were used as propaganda during the war. So, things like Superman, Tarzan etc were used to advertise the ideology of an invincible super human not so different from the "racial" ideology you would expect from the WW2 Germany.
Tezuka came SOON AFTER WW2 and based on his own words his mangas were focused on giving hope and trust back to a destroyed country.

@Thorgott Yep, see above ^ was just going to point out the WW2 thing.

Also, about the "Japanese anime heroes" never existing before, that was not really my point. I was focusing on how the story is told.

Do you by chance ever seen the old Teen Titans show?

NOT the horrible "GO" thing.

GratefulDisciple

@Thorgott That's helpful. I'm trying to find the real-life analogues of the currently popular Japanese animes that involve heroes, post-WW II and post-cold war, i.e. what other traits that heroes should have besides fighting enemies.

SPArcheon

@Thorgott Would you say that the Teen Titans show played out like a Superman comic? And if not what was different? And what about things like Power Puff Girls (and by contrast Power Puff Girls Z) or DC Super Hero Girls?

GratefulDisciple

Gotta go. Thanks for the comments.

ペガサス Seiya

@GratefulDisciple it's simple, who doesn't want to be a superhero and save the world? Even young adults like me sometimes still wish we had some kind of super powers even if its just for fun. Japanese kids are no different in this regard. In fact, Japan being the home of manga, this is even more true here than anywhere else. More manga, on average, are read by Japanese people, than American people reading comics

Thorgott

14:58

I'm afraid I've not seen those shows. Of course, when talking about "heroes", we need to delineate what is meant. I was only referring to heroes in the narrow sense of "superheroes" in my previous message.

ペガサス Seiya

@GratefulDisciple its possible that author took some inspiration. It isn't uncommon to see Japanese authors derive inspiration from western works. Dragon Ball has heavy inspiration from Star Wars ans DC/Marvel comics

SPArcheon

@ペガサスSeiya more DC that Star Wars. In SW there are other relevant characters, not just Luke.

ペガサス Seiya

@SPArcheon Goku's back story is a carbon copy of Superman's back story.

Alien child sent off world by his parents

Thorgott

One interesting facet to think about is that of scope. In original Western superhero narratives, the scope was very narrow. The superheroes tended to operate within one particular city, the setting was that of the real world in every aspect except for the superpowers and the antagonists were at first petty criminals, then criminals with superpowers.
In Japanese tokusatsu/mecha series of the 60s/70s, say, this is different. The settings are less specific and oftentimes wholly (science-)fictional, the antagonists are other mecha/kaijuu and oftentimes large-scale threats that reflect the exist…

ペガサス Seiya

@Thorgott Captain Harlock, Space Battleship Yamato, Mobile Suit Gundam all follow that example. These settings take place in the cosmos, making for really large scale battles and stories

Followed by Dragon Ball and Saint Seiya in the 80s and 90s

@SPArcheon Yep, like I said, heavy DC inspiration. Many even call Dragon Ball the "DC comics of anime world" for both good and bad reasons

SPArcheon

15:09

@ペガサスSeiya <sarcasm> Wait, there is something good in DC outside the "anime shows of DC"? </sarcasm>

ペガサス Seiya

@SPArcheon well, cool visuals/fights? Big booms?

The bad side, well there's several, but the number one thing that gets me is power scaling inconsistency. It is exactly like DC in this regard

Thorgott

@ペガサスSeiya yes, though I wouldn't call any of these superhero-like/centrally post-ww2 narratives, which is what getting at

ペガサス Seiya

Saint Seiya has this issue too but it gets away with it because a lot of the theme you see in it are symbolic. For example, Shun throwing his chains while a galaxy appears behind him is symbolic, it doesn't mean he's throwing a galaxy at his opponent's face. But in Dragon Ball, when you see a galaxy disappear, while someone is talking about a villain, you bet they actually destroyed it

GratefulDisciple

16:29

@ペガサスSeiya Do Japanese adults 30 and older still read manga too? If so, what do they get out of manga that is different than 15-25 bracket? @SPArcheon mentioned about F.E.V. elements that are obvious in MHA. Are there other elements enjoyed by the older fans, especially because in real life they are now past growing pains and have started their corporate career existence already?

Maybe the older readers project manga F.E.V. similarly, in joining companies: 1) some companies are better than others; 2) they seek mentors; 3) they start from bottom; 4) they need "E" to climb the ladders and achieve "V"; 5) they "grow up" with their colleagues ("F"); 6) some people in the companies are "superheroes" (like Bill Gates, Musk, Bezos, Sergey Brin, Zuckerberg, etc.)

SPArcheon

@GratefulDisciple to be fair, if you talk about the target demographic that is more about shonen VS seinen.

> Shōnen manga (少年漫画, lit. "boys' comics", also romanized as shonen, shounen or syônen) is an editorial category of Japanese comics targeting an audience of adolescent boys. It is, along with shōjo manga (targeting adolescent girls and young women), seinen manga (targeting young adult and adult men), and josei manga (targeting adult women), one of the primary editorial categories of manga

ペガサス Seiya

@GratefulDisciple Absolutely. There are, in fact, dedicated manga and anime for adults specifically

SPArcheon

@GratefulDisciple Also, I am obviously biased on this but... look at my avatar.

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Thanks. Makes sense, looking at the Wikipedia entries.

ペガサス Seiya

@GratefulDisciple some adults like fan service, some like the plot (no matter how old you are the L arc in death note will always be interesting), some like it for good fighting scenes. Its not much different to adults watching movies

SPArcheon

16:41

@GratefulDisciple Why do you thing that many adults became fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic specifically?

and why "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic" specifically became pretty popular in Japan to the point they made... A MANGA?

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Sorry, not being a manga / anime reader, I wouldn't be able to associate your avatar with a genre, similar to @forest 's avatar as well 😀. I'm really a newbie.

ペガサス Seiya

My avatar is the best

SPArcheon

@GratefulDisciple the avatar is a character from My Little Pony. A show that traditionally had been targeted to young girls. For some reason when the fourth "installation" of the show was made, it became quite famous with adults too.

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Sorry. Misidentification. Not familiar at all with the franchise. I'll have to try a few movies / episodes then.

SPArcheon

And - surprise surprise - this version is indeed quite similar to an anime in its themes.

btw....

GratefulDisciple

16:45

@SPArcheon So is that the case of Western cartoon adopting Japanese anime tropes?

SPArcheon

in a way, yes

ペガサス Seiya

@GratefulDisciple look at anime from 50s and 60s. You'd be surprised at how similar they are to american cartoons of that time. Speed Racer 1967 doesn't even feel like an anime

Speed Racer 1997 though? Yeah, textbook definition of anime

GratefulDisciple

@ペガサスSeiya OK. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Japanese animes from the 50s and 60s either, but I'll try to get reacquainted for the sake of cultural history.

For some reason, I managed to grew up only with Hanna Barbera, Disney, and Warner Bros. cartoons.

SPArcheon

@ペガサスSeiya just please don't try to pass World Masterpiece Theater as an example of anime themes :P

on a side note...

@Memor-X here goes the wallet.

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Looking at World Masterpiece Theater titles on the face of it, they seem to be like straight Japanese dubbing of Western literary classics, that could have passed for Western-produced cartoons. Is that close enough?

ペガサス Seiya

16:55

@GratefulDisciple I've grown up with those too. Specifically, Hanna Barbera's Swat Kats was my favorite. Funny enough, Season 2 swat Kats was animated by a Japanese animation studio as it was outsourced, that's exactly why season 1 looks more cartoony while season 2 is straight up a seinen manga/anime

SPArcheon

@GratefulDisciple those are indeed some VERY LOOSE adaptation of western classics

For example in the anime Robinson ends up on the island... with the whole family.

GratefulDisciple

@SPArcheon Must be interesting to watch though, just to understand the Japanese take on them. I'm curious how they would adapt Jane Austen novels, a genre I'm very familiar with.

@SPArcheon Personally, I can very much forgive plot changes as long as the spirit of the book and most of the characters intact. For example, I'm fine with Bride and Prejudice, a creative late 20th century Indian culture adaption of the early 19th century England Pride and Prejudice.

@ペガサスSeiya Interesting. I have yet to try Swat Kats.

Kiki's Express Delivery

17:25

0

Q: Mc gets failed isekai?

I'm looking for a manga where our main character dies but a goddess offers him to reincarnate him to another world with these skills 'appraisal', 'item box', 'magic', and 'language comprehension.' But due to a mistake the goddess accidently sent him back to his world where mc still has his skills...

manga magic isekai reincarnation

SPArcheon

17:45

@ペガサスSeiya You said L, that is cheating.

Take Sherlock, make him 200% cooler and you still don't get close to L

@GratefulDisciple btw keep in mind that (at least IMHO) anime tends to have much more variety than American cartoons on average

By which I mean that I can't really imagine an American author to write some of the anime Japan gets (note: this is not about fanservice. I doubt any other country could end up with To Love-Ru, but that is a complete different problem).

Basically, try for example Haruhi Suzumiya.

ペガサス Seiya

18:52

@SPArcheon If L was faced with Moriarty he would easily have him caught and jailed

@SPArcheon oh shit... To Love Ru...

SPArcheon

@ペガサスSeiya yep, a disgrace that someone even THINKS that To Love Ru is a modern version of Urusei Yatsura.

ペガサス Seiya

@SPArcheon Holy shit. Tell me that's a joke

SPArcheon

I guess that the remake was sent from Zeno directly so that people would realize they have not to share other than a vaguely similar premise

ペガサス Seiya

Urusei Yatsura is literally the father of "ecchi" stuff and a great one at that. To Love-Ru might as well be dog water compared to that

SPArcheon

@ペガサスSeiya sadly, it is not. "Alien princes ends up with idiot guy because of mistake" is all it takes for some to think they are similar.

ペガサス Seiya

18:57

I like Lum man

SPArcheon

@ペガサスSeiya most Lum episodes aren't even fanservice outside her usual tiger bikini (that at least HAS a reason to exist) and the best film Beautiful Dreamer is simply perfect

ペガサス Seiya

@SPArcheon still, you're lying if you said you never felt something for Lum

SPArcheon

@ペガサスSeiya I dare you to go to Naples with that. Either you "disappear" or you learn that that meme is fake.

ペガサス Seiya

@SPArcheon Italian mafia is already after me

Thorgott

19:41

I mean, anime as an actual commercial phenomenon is something that emerged in 1958 when Toei started producing yearly blockbusters, a project that was conceptualized by Hiroshi Ookawa with the clear intent of reproducing Disney's commercial success and these movies wear their Disney influences clearly on their sleeves. In particular, they used the same techniques of full animation as Disney.
This is different from the techniques of limited animation that were introduced in the Japanese sphere by Tezuka and employed in every TV production. I'm not sure how common these were in the American m…

I'd probably argue that from, say, the mid-50s to mid-60s, the Chinese were ahead of the Japanese in terms of having an identity to their national animation.

None of which is to say, of course, that there wasn'T animation from Japan at the time that was distinctly Japanese; one of my most notable favorites in that regard is 1968 to 1969's Sabu to Ichi Torimono Hikae.

ペガサス Seiya

21:00

@Thorgott is that so? We haven't seen much of Chinese animation though have we?

Thorgott

21:25

In that time period, Shanghai Animation Film Studio was huge; they even hired Japanese talents on occasion. The Wan brothers were prolific, specifically Danao Tiangong is one of the most notable 60s Eastern animated movies. In contrast to Toei's pursuit of animation in the style of Disney, Danao Tiangong it is not only based on one of the most important Chinese novels ever, its backgrounds were modeled after classical Chinese painting and the character animation and choreography were modeled after Peking theatre.

ペガサス Seiya

@Thorgott I didn't know this. My only exposure to Chinese animation is in the very recent "anime" called the Daily life of immortal king

ペガサス Seiya

23:25

Donald Trump sings Unravel (Tokyo Ghoul OP)

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@SPArcheon💀💀

Transcript for

Maid Café (メイド喫茶)