Maid Café (メイド喫茶)

Logan M

06:00

Of course, if you didn't use a machine translation, it wouldn't be such an issue, but for machines I can't imagine that's something they can deal with in any systematic way.

Taisho

hwlau

@LoganM I do implicitly assume the machine translation is context indepenedent , so a given sentence will always have same translation. It is not the case of human translation since it will depend on context

Logan M

Here's an example I did to test what would happen if I recursively translate EN->JA->EN.

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog
速い茶色のキツネは、のろまな犬を飛び越えた
The quick brown fox is, jumped over a laggard dog
ある速い茶色のキツネは、のろま犬を飛び越えた
Fox some quick brown, jumped over the lazy dog
いくつかの簡単な茶色のキツネは、怠惰な犬を飛び越えた
Some simple fox brown, jumped over the lazy dog
いくつかの簡単なキツネの茶色のは、怠惰な犬を飛び越えた
The few simple fox brown, jumped over the lazy dog
いくつかの簡単なキツネの茶色のは、怠惰な犬を飛び越えた
The few simple fox brown, jumped over the lazy dog

I don't find the stabilized translation to be very understandable.

I suspect if I picked a more complicated sentence it would only get worse.

hwlau

Yes, the meaning does not quite make sense. But it is likely there are some fixed points for most machine translator

Logan M

Yes, there are probably fixed points, but I don't expect they're meaningful sentences.

At least, not better than what you'd get after a single iteration.

If you could get the fixed points to exactly match the grammatical sentences in a language (and be correct), that would be essentially perfect translation, but I don't think that's possible algorithmicaly, at least not any time soon.

hwlau

06:09

It would be

but I still doubt that if it is possible for human translation

BTW, what is the purpose of creating a language with grammar, but no meaningful words

Secret Evil Radio

@hwlau en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_grammar?

hwlau

@SecretEvilRadio I learnt that long time ago, but it has nothing to do with machine translation

and the relation between two languages

also real language are not completely context freee

Secret Evil Radio

i guess you could say my comment was... out of context

im sorry. im leaving.

Logan M

Okay, I tried running it with a more complex statement. While I can't prove that this sequence doesn't eventually converge to something, it certainly doesn't look like it 15 translations in.

Anyone who feels that if so many more students whom we haven't actually admitted are sitting in the course than ones we have that the room had to be changed, then probably auditors will have to be excluded, is likely to agree that the curriculum needs revision.
私たちは実際に入院されていないので、より多くの学生がものよりも当然に座っている場合は、私たちは部屋を変更しなければならなかったことを持っていることを感じている誰もが、その後、おそらく監査人が除外されなければならない、そのカリキュラムのニーズを合意する可能性がある改訂。
Since we do not actually been hospitalized, if more students are sitting on the course than things, who we are feeling that you have that you did not need to change the room even if, then, perhaps aud…

My suspicion is that any sufficiently complex sentence will exhibit some sort of chaotic dynamics if you iteratively translate it with a context free algorithm, at least until you start taking into account the fact that the languages have finitely many words.

On very large scales we'd probably begin to see some self-similarity, but I'd be very surprised if it ever converged.

hwlau

06:26

@LoganM interesting, probably i can write a script t o test it

I am not sure if the translation string must be finite for some translators. I f it is not the case, then it doesn't have to be in a loop or fixed point

@LoganM I am not sure how can we quantify it they are self-similar or chaotic

Logan M

Yes, if they artificially set an upper bound, then it has to.

@hwlau me neither.

At least not without looking at more serious data first.

hwlau

If it is the case, there might be somehow related to some physics/stat mech problem

Logan M

Anyway, wouldn't artificially enforcing an upper bound technically not be context-free?

hwlau

and we may formulate like that

Logan M

@hwlau To answer this, at that point in my life, I was extremely bored. I spent most of my time in classes dozing off and playing around with whatever I felt like. Sadly, I learned far more math that way than almost all of my classmates.

hwlau

06:32

@LoganM Technically yes, but you may consider only a subset of them. Context free language is mainly use to detect if a string is in the language or not. So, there would be no problem for this purpose in practice

Logan M

Yes, I agree that it isn't much of a problem practically.

hwlau

but translation (or mapping ) between two language might increase the lenght of string so that it is longer than upper bound

Logan M

It depends on how they handle it

hwlau

@LoganM Yes, this is an evident that you can discover the underlying structure yourself. some kind of math talent

Logan M

Not talent so much as boredom.

What I did wasn't anywhere near as advanced as what computational linguists were doing decades before I was born.

hwlau

06:36

People would just drawing picture instead of doing the same thing as you.

Yuuki

I messed with really basic cryptography.

Logan M

If they did that enough, they could become decent artists.

hwlau

I don't thing there are kids that can discover advance stuffs themself.

probably

Yuuki

They say if a mathematician doesn't do their great work by age eleven, they never will.

hwlau

@LoganM For translator, they probably let the length grow. They are computational bound

Logan M

06:37

Right, but it could be that at some point, they start cutting the length of the trranslation.

Yuuki

alt-text if you can't see it: They say if a mathematician doesn't do their great work by age eleven, they never will.

Logan M

In which case it would really be a finite dynamical system.

hwlau

I don't know as I never encounter the cut off situation

Logan M

But if they don't truncate it, you could eventually reach something too long and it just gives an error.

I don't know either. Google translate can handle pretty long works

Taisho

Logan M

06:40

@Taisho wow good timing

I tried plugging in longestjokeintheworld.com to translate. It translates the whole thing, but about halfway down it starts translating entire paragraphs to single words.

hwlau

really? sound interesting

how long is it

Logan M

Here is result:

だから、砂漠をクロール男があります。

彼は、迷子になった、砂バッドランズの上を通っズーム大きな楽しみを持っていた大きな岩にヒットクロスカントリー旅行の少しの彼のSUVを試してみることにしたのだ、と彼はそれが再び開始され得ることができませんでした。そこにどこでも近くにない携帯電話の塔はなかったので、彼の携帯電話は無用だった。彼は家族がなかった、彼の両親は自動車事故で数年前に死亡した、と彼の数人の友人は、彼がここに出ていたわからなかった。

彼は一日かそこらのために車に滞在するが、水の彼の1ボトルなくなった
そして彼はのどが渇いてきた。彼は彼が太陽に注意を払っのだ今ことを、前後方向を知っていたし、彼は北にあった方法を考え出したのだと思ったかもしれないと思ったので、彼は歩行を開始することを決めた。彼はわずか約30マイルかそこらを行っていたし、彼は戻って、彼は最後にガスを得てのだ小さな町になると思い考え出した。

彼は熱と太陽を避けるために、夜間に歩いて考えるが、に基づいて
どのように暗いそれは実際に彼がガラガラヘビ上の足またはステップを破るだろうと恐れて、彼は懐中電灯を持っていないことを前の晩だった、と与えられた。だから、

very strange

Bing translator has a 5000 character limit and seems to truncate.

hwlau

I guess they slice the paragraph first and feed it into parallel translators, then stop with particular time limit. Since computationally bound is basically implying length bound.

Thats why you see single word at the end

Logan M

Yes I guess that makes sense

As I understand it, Google will never translate 1 paragraph into 2 though (or even 1 sentence into 2), so maybe that is irrelevant here.

hwlau

so it might based on paragraph rather than sentence

Logan M

06:47

could be

If there's no word limit, it might be irrelevant.

but probably there is some limit at some point to stop us from putting in a 10000 word sentence.

hwlau

if it is time limit, than you might actually get different results each time.

Logan M

that's true too

maybe we have to model it as a stochastic process instead.

hwlau

I really get something different from yours

ジャックはヘビが數秒以上を指摘していた道を見て、
その後戻って座った。それは暗くなっていた。あまり彼が見出しについて行うことができます
今のうち。それに、ネイトは面白いに到達するためにちょうど約ました
もの。「エデンの園？あなたはそれを把握することができますよう最善のように？」

"まあ、ええ、私とサムエルはとにかくそれを理解できたとして最高のように、「ネイトは語った。「彼
話が少々混ざってしまったことを考え出した。 You know, snake, in a
'tree', offering 'temptations', making bargains. That kind stuff. But he
could never quite figure out how the Hebrews found out about this spot from
across the ocean. He worried about that for a while."

It mixes some English with Japanese after some points

Logan M

Yeah I don't really know

hwlau

so it is more stochastic in real life

Logan M

06:52

At the end of the day, Google's translation isn't a stable algorithm, so it's not great to do analysis on.

@hwlau This could be location-dependent as well

They customize search results based on your personal info, so I suspect translations could be the same

Even if not, I don't know what it is doing.

hwlau

Ya, you are right, the hyperlink use different setting for different browsers

Logan M

If we had a real context-free stable translation algorithm, that would be one thing, but who really knows what Google does to get those results.

I didn't use hyperlink, I copied the text into the translation window

hwlau

ok, it is all japanese now. But it translate one paragraph less than your results

Logan M

I think it's probably limited in terms of the amount of computation it's allowed to do.

Or alternatively the amount of time it gives you

Logan M

07:16

On a completely different topic, looking at the leaderboard for WB, apparently Naruto is more common than Red Shirt and Handegg. I must just be really bad at this, since Naruto is by my estimation the #3 hardest hat.

Are you not even doing winter bash?

winterbash2014.stackexchange.com/naruto

not lame, hats

hwlau

From my answer list, there are 2 accepted answer with 0 votes, about 7% of all 0 votes answer

It is not easy, but not really hard if you really try

to answer a lot of questions

Logan M

I've never written a 0-score answer

At least not until I started trying for WB

Even now that I have, my mediocre answers still get an upvote or two

Taisho

hwlau

my mediocre answers usually get at least one votes too, I get it is fomr the questioner. The number is few times of 0 votes answer

Logan M

Yeah I'm specifically targeting questions where OP is unregistered or <10 rep

hwlau

07:30

So probably if you try randomly, you need to answer at least 20 questiosn

Logan M

20 questions is a lot

hwlau

yes

Logan M

I mean, I can do it in a day or so, but still, that's a lot.

hwlau

if it is poisson distribution, than with non-neglible chance, you need 50 answers...

I don't know any better way

Logan M

What site are you looking on?

hwlau

07:31

SO and Phys

Logan M

Different sites have very different vote rates.

hwlau

SO has very low votes rate on meh questions

and you are right that those accepted 0 answer are asked by <10 rep user

so it is not random

but still hard to do

Logan M

On SO it's not so hard I think in the right tags.

I don't know anything about programming though

On Physics I think it's probably almost impossible. Same here.

Math is where I'm aiming for, but that's still pretty hard.

Hakase

moo~

Logan M

Is there a ZWS there?

Asada Shino

07:46

nyanpasu~

Hakase

saikopasu~

Logan M

too tired to nyanpass.

Worth pointing out: the counter at nyanpass.com has passed the population of Japan.

Asada Shino

08:00

:o

Madara Uchiha

Happy Birthday @LoganM !!

12

Seems like it did :)

Logan M

Oh yeah I forgot lol

Asada Shino

08:31

xD

Hakase

@ton.yeung I figured so about a month after he hadn't come back >.>

to each their own

Logan M

@Memor-X could you unaccept my answer?

not sure if it''s right

I'll undelete once I can check it

Or not I guess...

Hakase

08:48

congratulations, you're old :p

Taisho

Hakase

…enough for that ^

Asada Shino

:3

Hahaha

Logan M

09:00

@Memor-X Thanks. I'll ping you again once I've checked though the anime (which I only remember bits of) and the manga (which I've only read 3 volumes or so of). Probably my answer will need some modification before it's definitely correct.

Should take a couple days, but not incredibly long.

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@ton.yeung but why?

@LoganM are you looking to achieve equilibrium?

Logan M

Yeah, same thing.

Hakase

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ coz we SUCK!

Logan M

Actually, I'm personally interested in the case where the translation never repeats, but instead grows without bound in length. I think there must be some interesting dynamics there which relate context-free grammars to chaos and fractals.

Madara Uchiha

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ "Problem with Bing! Probably over limit"

Hakase

09:09

lol internet sent the message 4 times

Logan M

But this is okay as a first approximation to that.

Hakase

oooh something's up with my connection today

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@Hakase it's def not North Korea

Logan M

Bing seems to be more controlled than Google was.

With Google, the length of the phrase grew on each iteration significantly, but that isn't so much the case for Bing.

Actually, my results got shorter with each iteration

Hakase

shorter is better

less misinterpreted words

Logan M

09:13

Shorter isn't better if it gets it wrong

Better is whatever is accurate. In this case, neither succeeded.

Maybe "Anyone who feels that if so many more students whom we haven't actually admitted are sitting in the course than ones we have that the room had to be changed, then probably auditors will have to be excluded, is likely to agree that the curriculum needs revision." is too hard though. Probably even would give some native speakers a bit of trouble.

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@Hakase silly ruski 歇后语 are better

Sakamoto

0

Q: Looking for an anime about a girl fighting aliens

So I have seen this anime in 2009. It was about a highschool boy that went to a swimming pool at night and met a girl that couldn't swim, I think and he showed her how to swim. And later she was in his class and he found out that she was like a soldier and was fighting aliens or something like t...

identification-request

Logan M

Bing's "Many students felt course that people must exclude the curriculum revision agreement whether to allow more room than we probably sat changes really need to be." isn't really any better than Google's results for a comparable number of translations (see chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/19218929#19218929)

Hakase

it took me a minute to read the sentence to the end and I still don't know what it all means

Logan M

Just read it carefully. It's perfectly grammatical.

Anyway Bing's results still seem to grow after a while, but they shrink at first. Probably Bing tries hard to remove redundant words, while Google takes the more conservative approach of adding more words to make things sensible.

But eventually I suspect Bing's will be just as confused as Google's, only with more irrelevant nouns.

mirroroftruth

09:33

#post

Taisho

Logan M

09:49

1

Secrets

Proposed Q&A site for people who want to share secrets in their personal and professional life. People can both give advice and take advice from community.

Currently in definition.

That's one of the most bizarre proposals I've seen.

Hakase

yeah let's share secrets

so that they stop being secrets?

Sakamoto

0

Q: Law's devil fruit vs Haki

Question: Why couldn't Vergo block Laws attack on Punk Hazard? Law cut him with one hit in 2 halfs. Is Law devil fruit immune against haki? Info: As far as we know can haki users block devil fruit attacks. Best example for me was when Rayleigh fighted against kizaru. he could easily counter ...

one-piece

mirroroftruth

@LoganM what if the secret post in secret is secret itself.

Asada Shino

@Hakase Not really, if you anonymously share a secret with a person that doesn't know you and you don't know, they could still be secrets to whomever it concerns

Hakase

this is too hard for me right now

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

10:01

in two days, y = ln[(x/m) - sa]/r^2

solve for the secret message

Asada Shino

Lol

mirroroftruth

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ i did already

Asada Shino

Reddit has the answers

mirroroftruth

Asada Shino

O_o

Toshinou Kyouko

10:04

morning~

mirroroftruth

O_O

Asada Shino

@ToshinouKyouko Ossu~ o/

mirroroftruth

afternO_On

Hakase

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ merry xmas ?

gah my internet is tota l carp today

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@mirroroftruth make a better one

@AsadaShino ditto to you too

Asada Shino

10:09

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ My algebra is terrible, I would not be able to do that myself now, I have not done algebra in years xD

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@Hakase i blame china

mirroroftruth

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ sa chritmas ......Holy Holy night just watching that part :)

Asada Shino

@mirroroftruth That's from Toradora, right?

mirroroftruth

@AsadaShino yes

Asada Shino

:3

Toshinou Kyouko

10:16

i.sstatic.net/35fb3.gif .

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

►

mirroroftruth

@ToshinouKyouko what is that for

Hakase

yeeeah toradora wasn't really good in any particular aspects >.>

Toshinou Kyouko

@mirroroftruth dunno :P

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

►

Toshinou Kyouko

10:22

he's like the michelin man

Asada Shino

@ToshinouKyouko But then robotic :P

Instead of looking like a chubby 10 year old

Toshinou Kyouko

haha

its pretty empty in work today :o

Asada Shino

He reminds me more of a snowman, tbh

But it could be the time of year xD

Toshinou Kyouko

:D

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@ToshinouKyouko looks like unchi

Toshinou Kyouko

10:26

heh

Asada Shino

Bahaha :P

Hakase

poopchi

Asada Shino

un~ xD

Taisho

googledrive.com/host/0B_8okaqRyPERVlM0OVVCS29TVzQ/… You're pushing it

Asada Shino

Ohhh :3

mirroroftruth

10:29

@Taisho i think i should be like OOh , melon

Asada Shino

Hahaha

mirroroftruth

10:42

#post

Taisho

Miramiel

haha

Hakase

for a moment there I thought Taisho was controlled by someone else

but then I remembered that technically it was so :p

Miramiel

Who controlled him lol ? @Hakase

mirroroftruth

actually i tamed that cat to post cute girls ,like that i could say :D

Hakase

10:56

@Miramiel chat.stackexchange.com/messages/19220439/history

Toshinou Kyouko

11:09

#tomato

Taisho

googledrive.com/host/0B_8okaqRyPERVlM0OVVCS29TVzQ/… Really pushing it lately

Toshinou Kyouko

@Taisho is liking oppai lately

Hakase

there's a Desktops app from sysinternals which runs 3 more explorer.exe copies and you can switch between them like in fancy linux window managers

except it looks like you can't send windows from one explorer to another

Madara Uchiha

@Taisho ....

Hakase

@MadaraUchiha I could send you the remaining links for review

Madara Uchiha

11:14

@Hakase I'd rather not

Hakase

and only the first window manager gets aero visuals, but that might be because I'm using teamviewer and weird things happen

now that I'm thinking about it, it's weird that people greet each other by simply announcing the current time of the day

"afternoon!"

indeed it is afternoon

"good day!"

everything is relative, day can't be good without a reference point

"nice weather!"

you don't know me, I like thunder storms >:o

yeah it's kinda boring at work today :p

Toshinou Kyouko

yeaaahhh

theres like 1 other person in work today

Hakase

we need to record testing scripts but the protocol is .net remoting which is obsolete a f and we don't even have any modern tools that can properly decode the messages

I found something that could help, but manual packet decomposition seems to be the only working way

also nobody really knows what exactly needs to be done in order to record each of the 45 tasks

the guy who's supposed to be doing all that has switched to only helping me occasionally, but now he's been gone for two hours on a lunch break, but I suspect he just left

Asada Shino

12:02

@MadaraUchiha Want to be surprised? :P

Hakase

soup rice

Asada Shino

Hahaha

Hakase

sometimes when you say "hahaha" I imagine you as a random character with a distinct laugh, like tf2's demoman drunken laughter, an alluring lady in a summer cafe, a giant muscle-man or a schoolgirl, an angry pirate, ojiisan, a swarm of tiny fairies, lots of characters

Toshinou Kyouko

huhuhuhu

ohohoho

wahahaha

Hakase

ojousama

Asada Shino

12:17

ah-ah-ahhh (Count Count's laugh)

Toshinou Kyouko

:D

Asada Shino

One~, twooo~, threee laughs~... Ah Ah Ahhh~

Oshino Shinobu

12:28

kaka ♥

Hakase

12:38

kako was the white tiger's name in nekomonogatari

Oshino Shinobu

no it's from second season

uh... yea neko (shiro)

Hakase

13:13

well it was definitely about cats :p

Toshinou Kyouko

nya

Oshino Shinobu

but.... it's tora

Hakase

it's just a fat striped cat

Oshino Shinobu

that's garfield

Toshinou Kyouko

Hakase

13:22

rekooda

Asada Shino

:3

@ToshinouKyouko Was thinking of posting it, but decided against it xD

Toshinou Kyouko

@AsadaShino :)

nyanpassu~

Asada Shino

@ToshinouKyouko \o/ nyanpasu~

Toshinou Kyouko

only 2 more days until presents >:D

looks like my secret santa will arrive after xmas tho

Asada Shino

Yeah! :D I can't wait to open mine! x3

Toshinou Kyouko

13:29

but other presents >:3

Asada Shino

awww

Taisho

Toshinou Kyouko

@AsadaShino have you got yours

Asada Shino

@ToshinouKyouko Yeah, for a few weeks now, but I have stayed strong and want to open it on christmas day x3

Oshino Shinobu

@Taisho here's your present @ToshinouKyouko

Toshinou Kyouko

13:30

@OshinoShinobu :D yay

@AsadaShino must be very tempting ><

Asada Shino

@ToshinouKyouko It's yelling at me "Open me! Come on! You can do it! You know you want to!" ._.

It's so tempting, but I must resist... I am so close... XD

Toshinou Kyouko

2 more days, hang in there :D

Asada Shino

Yusssh x3

Toshinou Kyouko

ganbatte :D

I want to read them all too :)

Asada Shino

Hehe ^^;

Hakase

13:38

pacchiñ-bacchiñ!

oh noes

it was pakkiñ-bakkiñ

or something like that

Asada Shino

D:

Hakase

Ayano's puns are hard to romajize

buns

hair puns

pans

nikumans

my head is aaall tired

Toshinou Kyouko

Asada Shino

Lol

Sakamoto

14:52

0

Q: What anime, fanart, or random art is this?

I don't know which anime/manga/fanart this is, but if you could help me, thanks in advance!

identification-request

nhahtdh

#id i.sstatic.net/HY7Yw.jpg

Taisho

Google Reverse Image Search, TinEye, SauceNAO, iqdb.

nhahtdh

#id imgbase.info/images/safe-wallpapers/anime/anime_girls/…

Taisho

https://www.google.com/searchbyimage?image_url=http://www.imgbase.info/images/safe-wallpapers/anime/anime_girls/35522_anime_gir‌ls_anime_girl_with_gun.jpg | http://tineye.com/search?url=http://www.imgbase.info/images/safe-wallpapers/anime/anime_girls/35522_anime_gir‌ls_anime_girl_with_gun.jpg | http://saucenao.com/search.php?url=http://www.imgbase.info/images/safe-wallpapers/anime/anime_girls/35522_anime_gir‌ls_anime_girl_with_gun.jpg | http://iqdb.org/?url=http://www.imgbase.info/images/safe-wallpapers/anime/anime_girls/35522_anime_gir‌ls_anime_girl_with_gun.jpg

Toshinou Kyouko

that wallpaper is p cool

nhahtdh

15:29

time for inou...

nhahtdh

15:54

I think it is quite an interesting series

Though it is a bit heavy on the everyday life part, for anyone who is expecting battle

Their powers are too imba, anyway

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