Maid Café (メイド喫茶)

12:01 AM

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ If the problem about Google is really the main issue, then we should make a canonical question and close new ones as dupes of that. But that doesn't seem to be what this is really about; rather, it seems like just another attempt to restrict a fine class of questions because a few users on the site can't be bothered to ignore a tag they don't like.

The same question came up not even a year ago, and nothing between then and now changes what our approach should be here.

Eric

@LoganM The upside you mentioned is literally the only upside to them.

Logan M

@Eric That is also literally the only relevant point.

Eric

As I said in the post, they are very commonly found via Google or @Taisho; they cannot be searched by other users (even finding previous ones you know were asked is hard); they are often from pixiv or other sources and we cannot conclusively say they have an answer; they are often fuzzy or tiny; and they are often so hard to tell who's in them that there are multiple equally good answers.

@LoganM It absolutely is not.

Logan M

If we're talking about banning a certain class of questions, yes it is. That is a decision that should be based on whether the question is or is not answerable, not your own subjective opinions on quality or usefulness.

Eric

We have no quality checks on these questions at all, and reverse image search is not the only one we'd need in place.

Logan M

12:06 AM

We have no quality checks on fullmetal-alchemist either.

Taisho

Eric

Yes we do. It's called closing questions that are unclear. How can an image be unclear? Is a low quality image "unclear"? To the OP it's not.

Logan M

Yes, that's the point. An image can't be unclear, so we shouldn't close it.

Eric

But it can be unclear.

Logan M

How?

Eric

12:07 AM

I can draw an image of a redhead and submit it here. It's a valid ID request.

Logan M

Yes, and the answer is "this was drawn by Eric"

Eric

Is it?

No one but me knows that.

Literally, it cannot be answered by anyone but me.

Logan M

Why is it a problem if the question is hard to answer?

Eric

It's not hard, it's literally impossible.

Logan M

In practice, that's extremely rare for the image-based questions, and they often pose some of the most interesting cases.

Eric

12:09 AM

Interesting how?

Logan M

Interesting to me in my own subjective opinion which I have no desire to explain.

Eric

Even this question is voted up only because it has to do with lolis.

Thing is, none of the cons I posted are bad by themselves. They're all tolerable. But when a category of questions is subject to literally all of them, it's impossible to moderate or to make guidelines for.

So the only other option is to leave them all open, regardless of how good or bad they are.

Which is also stupid.

Logan M

Most of your cons aren't even true.

Eric

Do tell. Because they actually all are.

Logan M

For one, you claim that the questions can't be found by searching, which is patently false. If I search for i.stack.imgur.com/7AvrS.png or i.stack.imgur.com/kpkBS.png or i.stack.imgur.com/g57pW.jpg on Google images, we're on the first page of the results (#1 in the second example)

Eric

12:14 AM

... No. By searching Google, as in the text search engine.

Not Google Images.

Logan M

Why would you use a text search engine to search for an image?

Eric

Because these people don't even know that reverse image search exists in the vast majority of cases.

They're going to search by text for whatever's in their image.

Logan M

The people who ask questions here, maybe.

Eric

Are you saying our users are dumber than average?

Logan M

The same is true on SO. People ask questions that are easily answered by checking the documentation, but those still prove useful for later people searching even if those people might have found the documentation eventually.

Eric

12:16 AM

We've decided in the past that comparing ourselves to SO is bad. I believe that comment got 11 stars.

Logan M

@Eric Not necessarily, but in some cases that's probably true.

Eric

@LoganM Perhaps, but it's not really fair to assume that, I think. I'm assuming we are attracting an average user.

Logan M

@Eric Yes, I said that. It's true that SO doesn't do a lot of things well, but this is one thing I think we can learn from them.

Eric

I disagree; we'd be better off to look at another recreation site like Arqade or SF&F.

Logan M

Arqade doesn't do much like us in practice, since they have few lore questions.

SFF or Movies & TV would be okay to follow, but I think we already handle ID requests better than they do.

Eric

12:19 AM

We handle textual ID requests better for sure. Perhaps debatably compared to SF&F, but I haven't spent much time there.

That's because we have an actual policy and guidelines for people to follow.

Logan M

Anyway, if the only complaint you have is that people should use Google image search before asking, I've already suggested the alternative of making a canonical question and closing ones that are easily done via Google as duplicates. That's how most sites handle when they have lots of small variants on a single type of question, and I think it would work okay here so long as people actually check to make sure Google does answer it.

2

Eric

Without that same thing for images, they're basically a free for all. And that's where my argument lies: image-based ID requests are unenforceable and unqualifiable, so they cannot be given policies or guidelines, making them poor fits.

Logan M

As for the other cons you mention, I don't see why identifying fanart is any lower priority than official art. I don't think I've ever seen an image-based ID request where the image was so low quality that it wasn't identifiable.

Eric

Because fan-art shouldn't be on topic. We shouldn't have to identify anything that has ever appeared on pixiv.

Fan-art is not anime or manga.

Logan M

Doujinshi are on-topic

Why shouldn't fanart be?

Eric

12:23 AM

To be fair, I never thought doujinshi should be on topic.

Logan M

Yes, that one should be closed as unclear

Eric

But why?

Maybe someone recognizes it.

The OP's friend would.

(Whoever "asked" him to identify it.)

Logan M

Fine, then close it as off-topic because nothing in the image appears to be of any anime or manga.

Taisho

Eric

"appears to be"... Doesn't mean it's not. This is my point: there is no actual way to tell for certain that this is not answerable.

Logan M

12:26 AM

It's silly to take such an absurd example and try to generalize that to a policy that would restrict dozens of good questions for each terrible example like this.

Eric

While also true for text-based ID requests, we have guidelines that provide multiple points of clarity to identify it.

Image-based requests cannot have such guidelines.

Logan M

Do you have any other examples similar to that one? Because in my mind, that's a horrible example and doesn't even need disucssion to close.

Eric

Eh, that's the only one I have saved on my hard drive. I'd have to look. I think I'm going to see if I can find all ID requests with images and see about their stats versus others, and look for specific examples.

As of now, I haven't.

Logan M

I've only seen one that was of questionable quality, but it was still identifiable. I haven't seen any as bad as that.

I don't think you can claim cases like that are "frequent" as you do in the meta post with just that one example.

Frosteeze

@Memor-X were you the one that bought the Saber swimsuit set figurines? I don't remember and I need a link to it

Logan M

12:30 AM

Based on my experience, a more typical example would be anime.stackexchange.com/questions/18463/…, where the image is cropped, and hence not easily searchable, but still quite recognizable.

Memor-X

@Frosteeze it was @ʞɹɐzǝɹ i think who showed it to me but here's a link amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=FIGURE-009627

it's still pre-order though, i'm using my usal ebay seller directly though PayPal to order them since i can buy 2 of them, pay them now and in may pay for postage when it's calculated, a hell lot better than having $1000 sitting around on my card

Logan M

How are you ordering it when it isn't released yet?

Eric

@LoganM One I recall was about 100x100. I think it was ID'd in the end, but was clearly very low-quality.

Logan M

That might be the same one I'm thinking of, which was from a VN (forgot which now). In that case, that's the lowest I'd ever seen (2nd lowest now), so still not "frequent".

And even in that case, it got ID'd, so it isn't clear to me that it was bad enough to be worth blocking.

Eric

I think the problem I'm having now is that most of them would be deleted. (The Sonic one was, of course.)

@LoganM The point I was outlining with that one is that it appeared to be low quality, but was still answerable, so it's hard to set a quality guideline.

Logan M

12:35 AM

Yes, they're already being closed and deleted. Why do we need new policy then?

Eric

Because there's no actual reason to close them except, "Oh, that doesn't LOOK like an anime..."

It's guesswork.

Logan M

If we're handling these egregious cases already, there's no reason to seek a consensus on meta. If we aren't, or there's debate, that's when we should take it to meta.

Eric

There's clearly debate.

Why are we talking right now?

Logan M

Right now the only debate I'm hearing is you saying that you can't tell whether an image with like 15x15 px is appropriate. In which case I think the problem isn't a lack of consensus, but a lack of common sense.

Memor-X

@LoganM pre-order and my seller pre-orders it themselves from somewhere else. thing is that this seller i deal with is japanese local and they've already gotten orders from their other customers for the same thing, sure instead of it costing me around $850 prefore postage it now costs me almost $900 but a tleast i get to pay through PayPal right away

and this seller has always been good to me, pre-ordered me the Madoka Soul Gem Light Set Rebellion Edition (which Includes Homura's Dark Gem and alternate curse filled cover for her regular Soul Gem) which got delayed a couple of times by Good Smile and 8 Nanoha Plushies which she allowed me to pay in 2 installments

Eric

12:38 AM

@LoganM No, the debate is from the fact that I've outlined 5 cons and you've elected to choose one and argue over one word ("frequently").

Just because you've elected to ignore other parts of the arguments does not mean there is no debate on them.

Logan M

If it isn't frequent, then the point is invalid.

Eric

In a mathematical proof, sure. But using that common sense, you can tell that there are cases where it's valid.

Logan M

If you outline 5 cons, of course I'm going to argue against them one at a time. I can't argue against 5 different claims at once.

@Eric I've never seen a case where it was valid, and I've seen most of the ID requests on the site.

Eric

Except we've already danced between all of them except the first (which I guess you don't take issue with).

Logan M

The only other one I've explicitly claimed was false was that these are bad for SEO, on the basis that your definition of "search" is too narrow to be useful for these sorts of questions.

Eric

12:42 AM

You touched on the others, too.

19 mins ago, by Logan M

As for the other cons you mention, I don't see why identifying fanart is any lower priority than official art. I don't think I've ever seen an image-based ID request where the image was so low quality that it wasn't identifiable.

Logan M

The fanart one I'm not going to bother debating. You're wrong there, and consensus is on my side.

It's true, but not a con.

Eric

Is it? We've never taken a poll on fan art before.

Logan M

2

Q: What is the criteria for questions about doujin work?

Doujin can either be fan-fiction or original stories. Some get adapted into anime or published manga. It would be a good idea to establish a criteria for what, if anything, would make a doujin series acceptable for the site. On that same note, would questions about the doujin industry itself b...

discussion

fanart is on the low end of this.

Eric

Mostly the problem I have with comparing it to doujinshi is that doujinshi is typically a work of its own. (It can be fanfiction, but even then it has a story and plot of its own.)

The difference I see in fan art is that everything from a quick doodle of an OC to a grand painting is fan art, and there's no way to differentiate when it's anime or not.

Logan M

Now you're making a pretty arbitrary claim that to be on-topic here, something needs a story.

Eric

12:48 AM

No.

I'm making the claim that for it to be on-topic, it needs to be anime or manga.

A single drawing is neither.

If it's from that, it's part of it. If it's create by the same team, it's part of it.

If it's someone like you or me drawing something we want to see from it, it's original work and is neither anime nor manga.

Logan M

A single drawing of something from an anime or manga is still inspired by anime or manga, so should be at least as allowed as, say, Avatar.

Taisho

Eric

You're comparing that to Avatar?

lol

Logan M

@Eric fantastic strawman right there.

Eric

It matches nicely with the appeal to authority you threw out earlier.

Logan M

12:51 AM

I don't really feel like arguing this any more. This question comes up every few months, and the arguments are always the same, and in the end nothing ever changes (because it doesnt really need to, and there are no real problems with ID requests).

The only thing I will say is that I think the average identification-request question is a lot better than the average tropes question. In the former case, at least there are real answers. For tropes questions, they're usually just "Why does anime do X?" or "What was the first case of Y?" and there's never even a remotely satisfactory answer.

Eric

Well, at least we can agree on something.

Logan M

Wow shinmai-maou-no-testament just barely fits. Which is pretty lucky because no other variant comes close.

nhahtdh

1:23 AM

Can I ask someone to cast the last undel vote on the deleted answer?

2

Q: Manga about a girl transported into futuristic world

I remember reading this manga a month ago. Basically it begins with a girl waking up in bed but before she was locked in a time capsule. When she wakes up there are 2 nendroids or robots that look like humans. Girl tries to escape and she recieves help from a guy looking like cat and he is a shap...

identification-request

Sakamoto

1:41 AM

0

Q: what picture is this manga from?

I just want to know what manga this picture is from. I found it on someone profile picture on Facebook. Just curious. Thanks!

identification-request

Logan M

@nhahtdh done

nhahtdh

Thanks

There is another one here

-1

Q: Which anime is this gif of an enraged brown-haired boy punching a blonde-haired boy to a pulp from?

I was browsing an app called iFunny, and I came across a .GIF that was from an anime. If I remember correctly, it had a brown haired guy in it, standing next to an blonde haired person. The brown haired person then looked up with glowing red eyes with a very angry look on his face, and proceede...

identification-request

Logan M

I don't know how we're supposed to handle these cases. In the past I've cast undelete votes if I thought the answers were good, but recently on meta I've heard more about "respect the author's intentions" and I don't know whether that means not to vote to undelete self-deleted answers.

FWIW another example case: anime.stackexchange.com/questions/6502/…

Sakamoto

0

Q: What's that song in UBW 2014

During Episode 1, Shirou vs Lancer. Starts at 37:31 or so according to my watch. Right after Shriou blocks the Lance and gets cut, a second before Lancer says 'Hoh'. I searched entire OST, but seem to have missed it anyway.

fate-stay-night

Memor-X

2:32 AM

@LoganM but the same can be said about questions and there is functionality to prevent the author deleting their question if it received an up-voted answer. though i can't figure out a reason why someone would go to the effort of writing a good answer only to self delete it unless it was out of spite to harm site content in which case it should be brought back

Logan M

3:32 AM

1

uʍop ǝpᴉsd∩

Proposed Q&A site for sǝƃɐssǝɯ uʍop ǝpᴉsdn ǝdʎʇ oʇ ǝʞᴉl oɥʍ ǝldoǝd

Closed before being launched.

I wasn't sure if chat would get that right. Looks like it came out okay.

Unihedro

Morning~

iKlsR

3:58 AM

Hey

Putting violently in front of anything makes it 200x funnier

violently pings @Eric

Eric

@iKlsR

@iKlsR 200 times nothing is still nothing.

iKlsR

violently stalks @Hakase

@Eric violently disagrees

violently does math

violently pirates tv episodes

violently reads poetry

violently murder 3 doges

@JNat Congrats man

violently congratulate JNat on his achievement

Memor-X

4:14 AM

-1

A: Is there any anime series of Dragon Ball after Dragon Ball GT?

Damn you all it doesn't end like that dumbass's a new series is coming i lve in Japan so fuck you

^ apart from the crap post any news of a new Dragonball Series being posted so close to April 1st can not be taken seriously

Sakamoto

4:38 AM

0

Q: Struggling to find yaoi manga

Need serious help to find this one manga I only remember a part from the manga where the seme and the uke and this guy that really likes the seme were going to sleep. The guy that likes the seme was happy because "I think" he was suppose to sleep somewhere else like the living room. But then th...

identification-request

Memor-X

Oh, for anyone who doesn't know. Omega Quintet is going to be available for pre-order on the 2nd of April, that's unless you can read/understand Japanese and got the game from Japan

ideafintl.com/omega-quintet

!!wiki Omega Quintet

HoiHoi-san

Omega Quintet

Omega Quintet (オメガクインテット) is a video game developed by Galapagos RPG, a subsidiary of Compile Heart, for the PlayStation 4. A hybrid between an idol simulation game and a Japanese role-playing game, the player plays as Takuto, the manager of the Verse Maidens, an idol group that use the power of song and dance to fight off a phenomenon called the "Beep" and save the world. Omega Quintet is the first game by Compile Heart for the PlayStation 4, and also the first retail game for the PS4 to utilize PlayStation Move. An English version of the game, available in both digital and retail format, has...

Memor-X

obviously i'm going to be buying the Limited Edition when IF puts it up

@ton.yeung if i read that bit after the rage type correctly, Final Fantasy XIV is down for maintenance?

Taisho

Memor-X

4:53 AM

@ton.yeung how so?

Logan M

Do you mean the Bechdel test? If so, I think it would be a permissible question. I've actually considered taking some statistics on that in the context of anime, since I don't think anyone else has done so before.

Unihedro

#post

Taisho

Logan M

"Does Kamisama Kiss pass the Bechdel test?" seems okay to me.

Your choice I guess.

I don't follow the series.

At least not any more.

Again, your choice, assuming there isn't already a tag.

Doesn't look too long

kamisama-kiss already exists, so use that.

Memor-X

3

A: Is there a season 2 in Kamisama Hajimemashita?

According to Anime News Network, Kamisama Hajimemashita gets second anime season, and it is currently airing this season (Winter 2014/2015) in Japan. For further confirmation, the manga entry of Kamisama Hajimemashita shows Kamisama Hajimemashita (TV2) being the sequel of Kamisama Kiss (TV)1 (wh...

^ @nhahtdh's footnote

Logan M

5:09 AM

@ton.yeung It's worth pointing out that based on what I've seen and kept track of, anime targeting a female audience generally fare a bit worse than average on the Bechdel test (for example, most episodes of Akatsuki no Yona fail the test). For Hollywood movies, the reverse has generally been shown to be true.

Right. In anime, female-oriented works generally have lots of male characters, and male-oriented ones have lots of female characters.

But in movies, it seems that male-oriented movies feature mostly male characters.

I don't understand this trend.

Memor-X

@LoganM because people who go see live action movies don't care about cute girls

Logan M

@ton.yeung No, not really. Lots of anime pass. Way more than movies.

For instance, K-On passes almost every scene, and that's clearly a male-oriented series (albeit also with a large female fanbase)

Sakamoto

0

Q: Does Kamisama Kiss pass the Bechdel test?

The Bechdel test asks if a work of fiction features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man. The requirement that the two women must be named is sometimes added. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test I'd like to know if this series passes the test and...

kamisama-kiss

Logan M

Actually, in anime, the reverse Bechdel test seems to fail a lot more than the Bechdel test itself does.

Memor-X

@LoganM reverse Bechdel test? is that a scene where 2 girls talk about a guy or 2 guys who don't talk about a girl

Logan M

5:14 AM

Of course, I'm basing this on the series I bother to watch, so it isn't solid statistically, but that's what I observe at least.

@Memor-X Apply the Bechdel test to the gender-reversed series.

nhahtdh

5:30 AM

--> Manga, I think

@LoganM Well, I cast undel vote if I find the answer contains something that the existing answers don't have, is good enough, and I can more or less tell that it is correct. Whether the author wants to delete it or not doesn't matter to me, if the content looks good.

Yaoi really lives up to its name: yama nashi, ochi nashi, imi nashi

Many yaoi id just got closed promptly, since it only describes generic scenes

Asada Shino

Nyanpasu~

m.imgur.com/a/M1Dhe x3

Logan M

He'll talk occasionally if he has something to say.

Asada Shino

Memor-X

@AsadaShino what anime?

Asada Shino

xD

Memor-X

5:42 AM

@AsadaShino Nyangato

Taisho

Asada Shino

@Memor-X OC

Logan M

@ton.yeung Definitely passes by chapter 21/episode 8, if not earlier. There's a conversation about going to the beach between Nanami and Ami

Asada Shino

Original Characters*

Logan M

I haven't bothered to look earlier because I remembered that conversation, but there could be earlier examples.

nhahtdh

5:43 AM

Er, isn't she Nagato from KanColle?

Memor-X

@nhahtdh yes but

1 min ago, by Memor-X

@AsadaShino Nyangato

Logan M

That's Nagato, unless you mean the most recent one

(The most recent one is from Kagerou Project)

Asada Shino

@nhahtdh Yes, that was Nyagato xD

nhahtdh

@LoganM Sorry, but I don't follow what you are saying. I thought Kagerou project is Kagerou Days/Mekakucity Actors?

Logan M

Oh you were saying i.imgur.com/vvjVuOG.jpg is OC

@nhahtdh Yes, the characters in 46b7a67fbec3f9481a2a69c637ad8e35aea3069c.googledrive.com/host/… are Kido and Ayano from Kagerou Project.

nhahtdh

5:46 AM

Ah, right, firewall at work blocks imgur and google drive. *Facepalm*

ʞɹɐzǝɹ

@nhahtdh comss9proxy.appspot.com

nhahtdh

@ʞɹɐzǝɹ Doesn't work. The firewall operates on keywords in URL

Why are we pinning Summer Anime? It's still 3 months away.

Logan M

Oh yeah, speaking of which, I should make a Spring anime meta post if people are still interested in keeping track.

nhahtdh

Yes, please

Memor-X

@nhahtdh because in 3 months time no one will remember it havn't been posted and it'll be reposed and pinned then, might as well do it now

Logan M

5:56 AM

Okay will do soon.

nhahtdh

@Memor-X I mean, we can bring it up 1 and half month before the season starts

Some series from Spring even starts this week

Memor-X

@nhahtdh replace 3 months in my original post with 1 and 1/2, the meaning wont be lost

anyone know a line from 50 Shades of Grey which demonstrates the BDSM shit in it?

nhahtdh

@Memor-X The thing is, in this and the next few weeks, we are going to discuss what to watch and what to drop this season, rather than whatever going to happen for the next one

Having the list pinned is quite handy for such cases

Asada Shino

@nhahtdh Yes, that was Nyagato xD

Hahaha

animemaru.com/anime-marus-guide-to-discussing-anime

Did it just send that message again?

My phone's internet is a bit sketchy :P

Logan M

Wow I didn't realize the list was that far behind.

30/40 is a lot better than I thought we were doing.

Logan M

6:32 AM

New tags list is up. Might have missed some, so anyone who follows should double-check the list.

Hell Butterfly

1

Q: Spring 2015 series tags

As has become something of a tradition by now, this is a meta post for listing and counting tags for the various full-length anime series which are airing in Spring 2015 season. Previous posts in the series: Creating tags for Fall 2014 series Winter 2015 series tags What series are airing i...

discussion tags

Sakamoto

6:56 AM

0

Q: In SAO 2 did Asuna break up with Kirito?

I noticed that when introducing Shino to Asuna and Lisbeth, Kirito mentioned them as his nakama. Why is that? Why is it that Kirito didn't introduce Asuna as his girlfriend? Is this what is normally done by a Japanese couple? Or did they broke up?

culture sword-art-online

Sakurai Tomoki

Nyanpasu!

Asada Shino

@Sakamoto @SakuraiTomoki Not sure how to answer that without spoiling :P I'll give it a try :3

@SakuraiTomoki Nyanpasu~! o/

Sakurai Tomoki

@AsadaShino Ganbare, Asada-san! Faitto!

Asada Shino

Because the best way I could back my claim would be by saying stuff from later in the story~ But I dun wanna~ ~_~

Oshino Shinobu

@AsadaShino did someone dieded?

@AsadaShino anyway, you can always use spoiler tag

Asada Shino

7:01 AM

@OshinoShinobu Not in what I'd want to use to explain my answer

@OshinoShinobu You can spoiler tag an answer? Lemme see

Sakurai Tomoki

>!, right?

Asada Shino

Ah yeah, just checked advanced help :P

Taisho

Asada Shino

@Taisho :3

Hakase

sakurako? looks like her

a few days ago I saw long-haired blonde girl in a full body tiger suit

Oshino Shinobu

7:12 AM

@Hakase whos dat

Hakase

#isch sakurako ohmuro

Taisho

Google Image Search.

Oshino Shinobu

oh one of Kyouko's girl

Hakase

7:33 AM

reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/2x2tbk/…

I've never seen that until today, but only on a steam group page

never in chat

looks like I know a game dev guy who's a regular in steam group chat

those don't have transcripts natively

gotta stay awhile and listen to figure out what's being talked about

apparently things haven't changed much since back when :p

Septian Primadewa

7:54 AM

@Sakamoto somehow i feel already read this question

2

Q: Kirito and his girlfriend relationships

In SAO 1 & 2, he seemed to be interested in more than one girl at the same time, and at the end they are all friends and such, but they are all jealous of him and he likes them back and such. Some would argue Asuna is the real gf but at the cave with Sinon(SAO2 Ep.11 t.20:30), Sinon asks "Is the...