CG&CC-gaming

Nathan Merrill

00:57

I'm looking at UI design right now.

Why do games have minimaps?

1. Information
2. Navigation

but when I look at games like Rimworld or Oxygen Not Included, they don't have a minimap

I feel like both of them could benefit from additional informational and navigational tools

so, is it something they simply haven't considered? Is there a disadvantage (outside of real estate) for these games?

El'endia Starman

Even Minecraft has minimaps. Though you have to craft them.

Pavel

@NathanMerrill Because in a lot of games, the core engagement is getting lost and using your own spatial awareness to find your way

If you've ever done a corn maze IRL, imagine if you were given a map of the entire maze beforehand

It would defeat the point

Nathan Merrill

@Pavel that's true for games like Don't starve, but not Rimworld or Oxygen Not Included

Pavel

Isn't ONI a metroidvania?

Wait, no I'm thinking of environmental station alpha

Haven't played either of those

But in rimworld I do think part of the engagement comes from being confused as to what's even happening and trying to sort it out

Nathan Merrill

oh wait...Don't starve has a minimap

@Pavel what do you mean by this?

Pavel

01:09

It's been a really, really long time since I played rimworld

I might not have any idea what I'm talking about

Nathan Merrill

lol, that's fine. Like, I do think "figuring things out" is fun in Rimworld

but I don't think a minimap would hinder that

like, you are figuring out systems. The fact that bugs invade an underground base

or how to setup your power grid

Pavel

It kinda gives you this extra tension of knowing something somewhere has gone wrong and not immediately knowing where it is

Nathan Merrill

But a minimap would let you identify invaders/wanderers/wildlife quicker

Hmmm...maybe? Like if there's a fire somewhere and you can't find where

Dunno. The 1/2 second of panic while you search for the fire seems pretty weak.

Pavel

Like I said, haven't played rimworld in a long time, and even then I was trash

Nathan Merrill

maybe 1/2 second is too short

Pavel

01:14

So it was more like, a solid minute figuring out how fires might be resolvable in the general sense

Nathan Merrill

ooooh...I just read a good argument against minimaps. Or at least bad minimaps

You have a bad minimap when the player looks at the minimap more than the screen

Pavel

If that's the case, removing the minimap probably won't save your game

Nathan Merrill

no, you simply need to remove information from the minimap and add it to the game screen

Like, indicators that something is wrong. Or audio

Like, I know in Majesty, each hero had a unique dying script. Every audio clip in the game was made louder based on how close you were except the dying script

so you could always know when a unit died

and then the minimap would should a little dying animation where it happened

Ok, so I feel like the best information minimaps can provide is:

1. Relative location and
2. Location of events

Like, in an RTS, if you are trying to navigate quickly between your army and base, the minimap is essential for that

But for games like Rimworld or ONI, the game map isn't big enough to really justify it.

you rarely need to travel quickly to a particular spot on the map

and if there was information on it (like the location of wildlife), that'd only encourage minimap-watching

Anonymous

13:12

Factorio's minimap isn't super useful, and I often play with it disabled. But the main map screen is amazing - you can play the game semi-normally with blueprints from the map screen

DJMcMayhem

15:41

@Mego Does factorio even have a minimap?

450 hours in the game, I shouldn't need to ask that

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem Yeah but it's so pointless that people usually disable it

El'endia Starman

... Yes, Factorio has a minimap. I think I use it more often than Mego does, as sort of a high-level overview of my immediate surroundings I guess.

DJMcMayhem

Clearly you can tell how useful I found it, if after 450 hours I couldn't remember whether or not it exists

Veskah

Aren't Bad Stuff(tm) icons on the minimap?

Anonymous

@Veskah They're also on the main map

Anonymous

15:45

And there's two phases to the game: when you don't make enough pollution for biters to care about you, and when you have enough defenses that you don't care about biters beyond clearing out bases for expansion

DJMcMayhem

No, the real two phases to the game: When you turn off biters in the world gen settings, and when you don't have to worry about biters for the rest of the game.

Because they aren't there :P

El'endia Starman

@Mego Three if you play the Industrial Revolution mod.

Biters have been important for almost all of my first two hours of play.

So much so that I had to build walls. I don't typically do that in a normal Factorio playthrough (just add moar turrets!).

AdmBorkBork

Wall of Turrets.

Veskah

And if that don't work, use more gun

Pavel

16:02

@El'endiaStarman My most recent world is in a state where the world's biggest biter nest is adjacent to my main uranium mining operation. I can't clear them out no matter how hard I try, and they can't destroy my 4-layer walls under laser turret fire before they get repaired by bots.

DJMcMayhem

Have you tried turret creep?

El'endia Starman

@Pavel I usually destroy such bases with a tank.

DJMcMayhem

Just slowly push that wall further and further

Pavel

Honestly it was a feat getting the setup there in the first place, it took three of us to build defenses at top speed while burning them off at the same time

DJMcMayhem

Or that XD

El'endia Starman

16:04

Man, now I want to see a screenshot of this biter nest.

Veskah

Build that sweet artillery train they added (or is it still in the beta branch?)

El'endia Starman

Artillery is definitely in 0.17 (I've used it).

DJMcMayhem

I've always thought that biter nests on uranium patches should be radiation powered super bugs

Pavel

.17 isn't beta anymore, right?

Veskah

I guess as of today, no?

El'endia Starman

16:05

It was easier for me to build three artillery guns than all the tracks for a train, so that's what I did.

0.17 was declared stable yesterday.

Veskah

Which means it's still stable today :^)

AdmBorkBork

Nope. Only stable yesterday.

DJMcMayhem

crazy how nature do dat

AdmBorkBork

Half-life of 12 hours.

Veskah

Half-life of 3, never

DJMcMayhem

16:06

@AdmBorkBork So now it's a quarter stable?

Pavel

I personally like walls for their aethetics

El'endia Starman

Not even big enough for a horse.

AdmBorkBork

Sure. Quarterhorse stables.

Pavel

Together with hazard concrete really gives it that industrial look

Veskah

My piece of quartered horse tasted like ass :\

AdmBorkBork

16:10

You got the wrong quarter. Also eww.

Veskah

Eh, horse is just the athletic cousin of the cow.

DJMcMayhem

Horses: stronk cows

Pavel

So does everyone else get angry when they see a patch of ground not covered by ref concrete or is that just me

Veskah

I only get angry about Elves

El'endia Starman

@Pavel Certainly not me. I tend to go the route of disturbing nature as little as possible (e.g. trees are real nice for reducing the spread of pollution). I actually noticed that the Industrial Revolution mod has saplings which makes me excited though I haven't yet figured out how to plant them.

AdmBorkBork

16:18

@Pavel I'm not even sure what ref concrete is, so probably not me.

Pavel

@AdmBorkBork wiki.factorio.com/Refined_hazard_concrete

You run super fast on it

AdmBorkBork

Can honestly say I've never made paths in Factorio

Of any sort, excepting belts.

El'endia Starman

I've made very few. :P (And yeah, I run on belts a lot.)

Anonymous

16:39

@Pavel Why run when you can be stationary and play the game from the map screen? :P

Pavel

@El'endiaStarman Belt speed boost stacks with conc speed boost

Blue belt + ref conc = light speed

DJMcMayhem

How fast can you go in factorio? Speed comparison.

►

El'endia Starman

I remember that video!

Pavel

Ref concrete takes tons of iron, stone, and steel but it feels so satisfying to have enough stocked up to just paint the map bleak grey

Pavel

17:13

Is there any interest in a CG&CC factorio server? I'm already paying for a DO droplet so I could host a headless factorio on it

DJMcMayhem

I was actually just thinking about that. Especially with 0.17 now

I for one would be interested

El'endia Starman

Me too.

Veskah

Gonna make a Belt donut and idle

Anonymous

I'd play

DJMcMayhem

@Veskah I trap you in a ridiculous amount of walls

Veskah

17:16

Joke's on you, that's my fetish

DJMcMayhem

Dang it

Pavel

Alright, I'll get everything setup, in the meantime, 0.17 now supports syncing mods between your client and the server, so I'm taking mod suggestions

Unless most people just want straight vanilla I'm definitely at least putting in an extended reach mod of some sort

DJMcMayhem

Are you thinking heavily modded, or just QOL?

For QOL Squeak-through is amazing

And even distribution (although that mostly affects early game)

Pavel

I'm thinking QOL that one mod that makes explosions look and sound cooler, and maybe a few mods that add some not-entirely-gamechanging features

DJMcMayhem

I'm curious about Industrial Revolution

Pavel

17:25

I'm downloading version 17.69

Probably won't be updating to unstable releases over time because updating a factorio server was incredibly annoying last time I tried

El'endia Starman

@DJMcMayhem I'd suggest trying it out locally first. Progression slows way down because it takes much longer to do anything.

I like it so far, and I think I'm gonna dig it once I get used to it. It's also quite pretty...

DJMcMayhem

Ooh, that reminds me. Cosmetic mods OK?

Pavel

Absolutely

I like me some pretty biomes

DJMcMayhem

Dectorio is good but massive. Asphalt roads are cool (and if you get that, might as well get car snap and streetlights)

I have mixed feelings on alien biomes

Pavel

Well, I'll think about it

What are your guys' opinions on boats and a map with a bunch of water

DJMcMayhem

17:36

I really like maps with a bunch of water. I've never tried boats, but I'm not opposed

Pavel

Me neither but I've also wanted to try

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel What worldgen settings were you planning? What time do you think it'll go up?

Veskah

One island entirely made of deposits, one island entirely made of open land. A 1 tile wide land-bridge connects them

DJMcMayhem

Another interesting mod could be factorio world

Veskah

~~landfill research removed from the tree~~

Pavel

17:41

@DJMcMayhem No clue, and likely tommorow because I have an exam today\

DJMcMayhem

@Veskah How dare you

@Pavel Oh good, that works better for me

I'm gonna play gloomhaven tonight, finally get to try out my new character

Pavel

god fkn dmmt my dorm's wifi went down and my one device with an ethernet jack doesn't have it's ssh key registered with my server yet

also, hacktoberfest

Veskah

Pound-signRekt

El'endia Starman

@DJMcMayhem This is incredible. (I'd still prefer a random map.)

Pavel

18:49

Draft mod list: hackmd.io/jRS_Eo_fRiGgMBbMJeYLyQ

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel I would vote against both long inserters and longer underground belts. I think those both make it too easy.

I'd also vote against electric furnace cause it seems kinda useless

For QOL I'd request Even Distribution

Pavel

Ok

I see the argument against electric furnaces and longer underground but I think it's weird there are no long fast inserters

DJMcMayhem

That bothered me at first too, but there's a lot of little puzzles for insanely high throughput builds when you're getting up to megabase scale. Long fast inserters would totally trivialize most of those

Pavel

Alright

DJMcMayhem

I'm not dead set against it, especially since I doubt we'll get up to megabase scale. But I wouldn't prefer it

Pavel

19:01

I couldn't find VehicleSnap for a while because mod searching for Vehicle Snap with a space doesn't find it

DJMcMayhem

I'm trying to remember which one that is. I know there's two versions: Snap to asphalt roads and snap to 8ths (or 16ths?) of a full rotation

Pavel

Snap to 16 degrees

Anonymous

Far Reach

Pavel

There's also a Pavement Drive Assist

@Mego QOL research covers that

Anonymous

@Pavel Oh, I haven't looked at that one yet

Anonymous

19:04

I should look at what it does before I make more suggestions :P

Anonymous

Auto Deconstruct

Pavel

Will take a look

Ooh, right

Anonymous

Automatically marks miners for destruction when the ore is depleted

DJMcMayhem

Auto deconstruct seemed really nice before I used it, and then after I got it I realized it's incredibly meh

Anonymous

LTN is super fun but a bit more than QoL

DJMcMayhem

19:06

Ooh, that's one I still haven't tried yet

Pavel

Logistic Train Networks, I know it integrates with cargo ships also

I don't do a lot of logistics which is why I kinda skipped over it

DJMcMayhem

Logistics are incredible

@Pavel Is Island worlds customizeable? I like the idea of doing a water heavy run, but I worry that small islands would make trains worthless

Unless we went landfill crazy, and then what's the point of cargo ships

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem I haven't tried yet

Let me check real quick, if not I'll just create a world with a ton of water

DJMcMayhem

If large islands are possible, that sounds great. I hope there's some sweet spot where both trains and cargo ships are worthwhile

Also, waterfill plus noxys sounds really good. I love waterfill, but I refuse to use it on biter worlds

Oh wow, flow control looks amazing

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Check the discord server, #factorio-talk for a video of me messing around with the world generation sliders

DJMcMayhem

19:14

> 63 MB

Wow, discord nitro must be nice :P

Pavel

I don't really know what kind of settings I want exactly but I think by the end I was onto something

DJMcMayhem

Yeah, 100% scale, 50% coverage looks pretty great

Although with cargo ships, it might be interesting to pump the scale up even higher. Idk

Pavel

I'm gonna go get lunch and then study for my exam and I'll take suggestions for mods during that time

Vote on biter settings: strawpoll.me/18694718

DJMcMayhem

How about default but expansion off?

Pavel

Now I'm on my phone and can't make a new poll but I like that idea

Anonymous

19:43

Default expansion off is the best setting IMO - railworld forever

El'endia Starman

I would be fine with default + expansion off. I normally play with expansion on so this will probably feel quite a bit easier. :P

Pavel

Sounds good

I think I'll disable movement speed research in QOL research settings because power armor exists but I'm just hoping that the mod sync features also syncs mod settings

Anonymous

20:26

I'm pretty sure mod settings are determined by the host

Anonymous

Unless it's a UI-only mod setting like Bottleneck's colors

Pavel

21:15

@Mego Startup settings require a game restart

On that note, the server is live now and stuff works, but because I have things to do and can't play much now I'm keeping it under a secret password for now

Testing shows it just makes factorio restart once after syncing mods and a second time after syncing mod settings

Nathan Merrill

21:31

BTW, I'd love a heavily modded game. I haven't followed the recent modding scene so I know nothing about Industrial Revolution, but I love a good Angel Bob scenario

I've done Yuoki, which is also really fun. I actually like that better than AngelBob

Pavel

@NathanMerrill I don't want a complete overhaul of existing game systems that bob and angel gives, the most impactful mods we're using are probably the cargo ships and island map generation

              total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:          983Mi       266Mi       200Mi       0.0Ki       516Mi       575Mi
Swap:            0B          0B          0B

Nathan Merrill

That's fine, just voicing my personal preferences

Pavel

Might want to expand the server

Anonymous

21:59

@Pavel Eh. Free memory is wasted memory.

Pavel

It's also 5$/GB/month

Anonymous

Besides, isn't CPU much more important for running Factorio smoothly?

Pavel

Not for headless, most of those cycles go towards rendering

I've had success running a 10 gb droplet for a month with a few friends and we never had slow down but I regret not looking at the RAM usage

Er, 10$ - 2 gb

Pavel

23:22

I think I'm taking swimming off the mod list because it causes some weird interactions with vehicles

The starting map contains enough of every resource to get to boats

DJMcMayhem

23:42

@Pavel Does that mean Biters can't swim either?

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Yes. Maybe I can try a different swimming mod that works a bit better?

lets see if I can find one

DJMcMayhem

Personally, I wouldn't even mind it if Biters could swim but we couldn't

Pavel

Hmm, I don't think there's a water mod that doesn't A) slow down ship movement over it and B) disallows normal vehicles from crossing water, making boats pointless

DJMcMayhem

That's too bad

Pavel

I can't find a mods for flying biters either

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