Math Meta Chat - 2019-03-28

darij grinberg

17:45

M.SE is not a QUESTION database ffs, that would not be a very useful website

Xander Henderson

The point of the website is to provide a database of high-quality question/answer pairs.

Both the question and the answers need to be good.

If the question is no good, then it doesn't benefit the site to keep it around, as it clutters up search.

darij grinberg

context is not necessary to make a question good

Xander Henderson

Yes, it is.

darij grinberg

it's just the most obvious way to make it good

Xander Henderson

Context is absolutely necessary.

darij grinberg

17:47

we tell people to add context to avoid common mistakes and antipatterns, but a question like the one i linked is fine without it

i have added "unital" but it is clear enough from speaking about a 2

Xander Henderson

Both the necessity of context and the policy of deleting poor questions are long-standing consensus views.

darij grinberg

consensus where?

deleting poor questions with good answers is not consensus, as the current meta discussions and yesterday's talk here in this channel show

voices inside your head don't make a quorum

Xander Henderson

Okay, I'm done. If you can't be polite, I am not going to engage with you.

2

Good day.

darij grinberg

... says the person who assumes the whole community is the opinion of 3 people constantly showing up in "question deleted by" bylines

ok, that last line was prolly unnecessary, sorry; good day

Xander Henderson

Just for the record:

43

Q: Under what circumstances is it appropriate to delete a question that has received a good answer?

I would like to have a discussion about the following question: When is it appropriate to delete a question which has been closed as "missing context or details," but which has generated mathematically good and upvoted answers? What considerations should be made when voting? The recent spat...

20

A: Under what circumstances is it appropriate to delete a question that has received a good answer?

I hesitate to give an answer as I am not (yet) involved in this aspect of the moderation (on this site). Yet, I try to present an argument for a certain way of seeing things, and I would be curious to know what the specific points of disagreement should be in case there are some. The thing below ...

+23 / -3 (net score +20)

22

A: Under what circumstances is it appropriate to delete a question that has received a good answer?

Bad questions beget bad questions. One aspect of not deleting a bad question is that it sends a message to the reader: "MSE accepts these sorts of questions". Also, "This is the kind of way you should ask questions." A bad question with an answer sends an even stronger message: "... and you wil...

+29 / -7 (net score +22)

darij grinberg

17:56

14

A: Under what circumstances is it appropriate to delete a question that has received a good answer?

Testing the waters with: I propose that if the answer(s) can be reproduced with a call to Wolfram Alpha, then the Q&A can be deleted without any qualms. So for example standard tricks to reproduce an integral or a solution to a basic congruence or a (system of) equation(s) are at risk. This w...

Xander Henderson

Both answers suggest that poor questions should be deleted, whether or not they have answers. An exception is made for particularly good answers.

darij grinberg

here's for a much different place to draw the line

+18/-4, so not exactly out of the window either

i think many people just upvote all reasonable answers in meta threads, without viewing them as votes

Xander Henderson

That answer also suggests that questions with answers should be deleted, with a particular emphasis on questions that have automatic answers.

That answer seems complementary to the two above.

darij grinberg

the first comment (by copper.hat) on the OP has 21 upvotes

is that consensus too?

Xander Henderson

It is hard to gauge comments, because they cannot be downvoted. No answer was provided, so it is difficult to state that there is a consensus there.

Moreover, you are moving the goalposts: policy on MSE is determined by the community via voting on meta questions. When I point out that the current consensus, based on that system, is that it is generally acceptable to delete poor questions (even if they have answers), you move the goalposts and claim that this is not representative of the community consensus.

In the particular example you bring up, the question is devoid of context (even after your edit), and the answers are routine computations. I don't see how that question adds anything to the site.

darij grinberg

18:02

they are not routine computations

the best you can say is that they are applications of fairly standard tricks, but that doesn't mean it is useless to present those tricks

Xander Henderson

In the question did more to provide context for these "standard tricks" (which is a near synonym of "routine computation"), I would agree with you. As it is, it is not clear when these standard tricks should be employed, as the question provides no context.

Regarding the question of context, three clicks from the help center get you here.

Context is absolutely required. This is site policy, and perhaps transcends mere consensus.

darij grinberg

here's a no-context question for you

uninteresting specific numbers, straightforward equation-solving, "practicing" as the only source

the "odd ring has 2 invertible" question is a lot more likely to come up in proper maths and less likely to be a HW

while everyone agrees context > no context, i can bet a lot of people consider what the OP gave there to be sufficient context

that's what you get for relying on subjective criteria

Xander Henderson

18:18

@darijgrinberg The site's policy is that context must be included. Questions are closed and deleted if they lack context. This isn't a matter of opinion---it is policy. Regarding the question to which you just linked, I agree that it, too, is devoid of context and should be closed. However, that is neither here nor there with respect to the other question.

SmokeDetector

18:29

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, no whitespace in answer, repeating characters in answer (264): Proof that the graph of a linear function and its inverse cannot be perpendicular. by user658733 on math.SE

Bill Dubuque

18:43

@XanderHenderson It most certainly is an opinion. For the umpteenth time: please stop referring to your personal views as "policy".

Bill Dubuque

18:55

@XanderHenderson You wrote " To someone who does not work with rings on a daily basis, there is a lot of context missing. For example, it is not even clear to me that every ring has a '2' in it" That made my jaw drop. You admit that you are very unfamiliar with ring theory yet you deemed yourself competent enough to vote to delete it. That is absurd.

If you know so little about a topic that you can't make sense of rudimentary notions like teh denotation of "2" in a ring, you shouldn't be voting to close and delete such questions. This is a big problem with this room - people delving into topics where they have very little knowledge so have no clue how to properly judge such matters.

3

The site would work better if folks limited their close and delete votes to areas in which they are actually competent. It is a major flaw in the design of the SE platform that this ism't actually enforced.

quid

19:34

@darijgrinberg it does not seem to say that only those questions should be deleted. (Note the author of that answer endorsed my answer too.)

@darijgrinberg somehow voting on the answers is not quite uniform though.

@darijgrinberg there are no downvotes on comments, thus the score of a comment is meaningless to establish relative strength of approval. It does show that there are opposing opinions though.

You can argue as much as you like. Among users involved in moderating the site there is considerable traction for that activity and not all that much opposition, else it just would not play out the way it does.

darij grinberg

19:55

that's a rich statement given that it's much easier to delete a question than to undelete it (deleted questions don't turn up on the frontpage even for 10k users, so usually just fly under the radar). also this channel, and the "consensus" you are speaking of, appears to have been weaned on calc exercises, where the preservation-deletion calculus is much different (there are too many of them, and they get repetitive very quickly, with new answers not spreading any new ideas). ...

... so i understand the logic behind deletionism to some extent when it is applied to such routine exercises. but i'm seeing it increasingly getting applied to abstract algebra, where it is a lot more questionable, despite some superficial similarities. proving a property of all finite rings of odd order is not like solving a linear equation for 4x4-matrices.

and while i know that you @quid are competent at abstract algebra, the names i typically see after "deleted by" are not ones i am familiar with

Bill Dubuque

20:09

@quid It's not clear what "traction" in moderators has to do with the matters at hand. They are simply more opinions to consider - nothing more - nothing less.

quid

@darijgrinberg that could be discussed at length. I stand by my point. But maybe let me emphasis a point were I agree instead, namely that there also is a risk in overreaching deletions or deletions for the sake of deletions, or less provocatively for the sake of consistency. That said, even this is not a one-way street in that ideas along the lines you proposed were met with quite come hostility and considered as elitist snobbery or some such thing.

Bill Dubuque

@quid It's not at all elitist to have such matters judged (only) by users who have demonstrated competence in that field (tag).

quid

@BillDubuque I wrote "users involved in moderating" I did not mean per-site moderators, maybe that was unclear.

Bill Dubuque

@quid Thanks for clarifying.

quid

@BillDubuque that was not the objection though. Instead "we" are sometimes faced with claims that the site discriminates unfairly against easy questions.

And maybe "easy" is not the best word, maybe beginner subjects would be better.

Martin R

20:17

duplicate property about improper integrals is a duplicate of If monotone decreasing and $\int_0^\infty f(x)dx <\infty$ then $\lim_{x\to\infty} xf(x)=0.$ (one vote missing).

Bill Dubuque

@quid Yes, I am aware of that (and I have always been a strong advocate of treating fairly questions at all levels).

Xander Henderson

20:50

@BillDubuque In what way is "context is required" not site policy? New users are admonished to include context in the tour. The help center indicates that questions need to have context. The FAQ on meta explains both that questions need context, and gives pointers on how it can be provided. Again, how is this not site policy?

2

Bill Dubuque

@XanderHenderson I don't recall ever seeing any democratic vote on such matters. Views have varied quite widely on those topics over the entire history of the site. In any case, in the end, everyone if free to vote based on their views as to what is best for the site.

quid

23:18

@BillDubuque Is it policy that numerology is off-topic?

Bill Dubuque

@quid It seems clear that no one knows what "policy" means based on how its thrown about above.

quid

@BillDubuque thus nothing is policy?

Bill Dubuque

@quid Non sequitur...

quid

@BillDubuque then what is site policy in your opinion?

Bill Dubuque

In any case, it was Xander who used the word policy above, so you should be asking him what he means by that - not me.

quid

23:23

@BillDubuque thus you think that using the word should be avoided / is meaningless?

Bill Dubuque

@quid Please ask Xander, not I

quid

@BillDubuque I don't understand that reply. Did you read my question?

Bill Dubuque

@quid Sorry I can't read Xander's mind and I don't find it constructive to attempt to...

quid

@BillDubuque I did not ask you to do so. I asked about your opinion on the merits of using the word.

Bill Dubuque

@quid Given that many folks seems to have different views on what it means in this context it may not be the best word to use for whatever Xander intended to say.

quid

23:27

@BillDubuque could you propose alternative terminology? What about "rule"?

Bill Dubuque

@quid I already did above, viz. "personal opinion"

quid

@BillDubuque thus you think that everything on this site is a matter of personal opinion?

Bill Dubuque

@quid Where is there discussion of "everything on this site?"

quid

When I say "It is not allowed to post pornographic pictures?" what status would you assign to this?

Bill Dubuque

@quid Irrelvant

quid

23:30

@BillDubuque no

IIRC there wasn't a vote regarding this either.

Bill Dubuque

You're attempting to compare apples and oranges. I don't find that constructive.

quid

@BillDubuque I am trying to establish terminology.

Bill Dubuque

The site is managed by its users. Maybe some patterns can be observed but that's not "policy"

You're wasting your time if you think you can convince me that your or Xander's personal opinions are some sort of "site policy" (whatever that means). That will never occur.

What patterns exist in voting now may change in a month or a year - just as they have in the past

quid

@BillDubuque that's not the goal. The goal is to find out if there is anything that governs the usage of the site that you consider as above the status of a "personal opinion" (while being below being illegal in a narrow sense).

Bill Dubuque

@quid Given that Xander made this claim, let's wait for him to explain what he means by it.

quid

23:42

@BillDubuque I don't see how this is relevant. I asked you a question which is indepedent of whatever Xander said.

Bill Dubuque

@quid This seems to be another one of our (many) exchanges that is not going to be constructive.

quid

@BillDubuque well, if you continue to refuse to answer a straightforward question, surely it'll be.

5

Bill Dubuque

Instead oif beating around the bush, if you have something to add on this matter then please get on with it.

quid

It's pretty clear that you do not want to commit to something being a rule of the said, while at the same time you do not want to be on record with the claim that nothing at all is a rule of the site.

4

Bill Dubuque

That's quite the logical leap, don't you think?

quid

23:46

No.

But maybe there is another reason why you do not wish to answer, ideally with an example: 'if there is anything that governs the usage of the site that you consider as above the status of a "personal opinion" (while being below being illegal in a narrow sense)'

2

Bill Dubuque

Again, it was not I who made this claim about something being "site policy".

quid

@BillDubuque irrelevant.

Is there anything that governs the usage of the site that you consider as above the status of a "personal opinion" (while being below being illegal in a narrow sense)?

Bill Dubuque

Ok, you've exhausted my patience once again. Have a good evening. It will be interesting to see if you treat Xander the same way....

quid

@XanderHenderson is there anything that governs the usage of the site that you consider as above the status of a "personal opinion" (while being below being illegal in a narrow sense)?

:-)

Bill Dubuque

@quid What really is your goal here?

quid

23:53

@BillDubuque the goal is to establish if there are things that you/we/I consider as above being "personal opinions" on the site. We then can try to find a good name for these things. Maybe several ones if we find different categories. We then could analyze why and how these things achieved that status etc.

Bill Dubuque

Iiirc in the past that you hinted that you were thinking of enforcing your perosnal opinions on some topics as "site policy", e.g. that you might consider suspending users who answer questions that you don't like. Is that still true?

quid

@BillDubuque since you are very attached to democratic votes you should be happy that an entity legitimized by such acts.

Bill Dubuque

@quid Prior sentence does not parse

quid

@BillDubuque moderators were determined by a democratic vote (or at least a process that by far comes closest to such relative to anything else on the site). If the goal is thing being democratic, then one should be in favor of the moderators deciding things.

Bill Dubuque

@quid Moderators are here to "moderate" not to be dictators

quid

23:58

Irrelevant.

Bill Dubuque

@quid If you're going to revert to implied dictatorial threats again then we have nothing left to discuss.

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