Math Meta Chat - 2022-06-29

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5:34 AM

I hope it is ok to use this room in connection with: Should there be a model question tag?

Q: Should there be a model question tag?

Given the amount of material on the site now, I have previously asked questions about curating content better so it is more accessible. So this is an idea that may not work, but is designed to think about how we display the best of the site to new users and make the best content more accessible. ...

I don't know about this particular proposal, but I've upvoted for thinking about how site should mature. — JonathanZ supports MonicaC 13 hours ago

There's the faq tag. Is that what you need? — Arctic Char 13 hours ago

Would the new tag be for new questions, or involve assessing 1.5 million existing questions for suitability? — Peter Phipps 11 hours ago

@ArcticChar No - there would be a quality implication too — Mark Bennet 9 hours ago

@PeterPhipps I think one would do it incrementally. The idea came from noticing some of the questions which have been linked as duplicates recently and how good those are and how good some of the answers are. It would serve to give models of good questions alongside other possibilities. — Mark Bennet 9 hours ago

Of course, this would be a meta tag - the recommendation it to avoid such tags (or at least not to have too many of them). See: The "meta-tags". and The Death of Meta Tags. (Another natural issue is that there are only five spots on tags - and this would sacrifice one of those places for something which isn't useful for finding the question.) — Martin Sleziak 17 mins ago

@MarkBennet One of the things you've mentioned is questions that are frequently duplicated. I will point out that there are some threads on meta dedicated to such questions. And every tag has a frequent tab - questions which have many duplicates will appear there. — Martin Sleziak 3 mins ago

The other thing you've mentioned is high quality questions or high quality answers - there were some related discussions in the past, none of them lead to anything: Examples and counterexamples of good questions and answers, Standard example of well asked question. or Suggestions for examples of well-asked questions. — Martin Sleziak 3 mins ago

@MartinSleziak Perhaps there is another way of doing something similar as a kind of "badge of excellence". Perhaps there is something to do in relation to "How to ask a good question" which involves linking to examples of how to do it. Just thinking overnight, that aspect of showing as well as telling might be helpful? — Mark Bennet 11 mins ago

@MarkBennet I guess that my main problem is that I have hard time seeing what is actually problem that this is supposed to solve (and there isn't already an existing solution for that problem).

But maybe I simply misunderstood your post.

I have sent you an invite to this room - so I hope you'll get some notification.

Of course, I cannot promise that I'll be able to stay here and chat for long - but maybe other users will see some activity here and they might join the discussion.

I thought that chat might be better - since it seemed like it could actually be a longer discussion.

And it goes without saying that my opinion doesn't have much weight - I should consider myself sort of (semi)-retired user of Mathematics.

@MartinSleziak One thing I am thinking about is how to make all that accessible to someone who is new to the site and perhaps doesn't immediately know how to find what they want. It is a long time ago now that I was new, but I remember having a lot to learn. It is very easy for those of us familiar with the site to think that basic navigation knowledge is essentially trivial. Maybe there is a case for (clickbait warning) "ten common mistakes to avoid" or "ten ways to make the site work better for you"?? — Mark Bennet 3 mins ago

There is this faq post: How to search on this site? and it is linked in the help center, too: math.stackexchange.com/help/searching

I suggested to add the same link into the modal window - but it seems that this isn't possible: Change the link to search in modal window for the first-time askers.

A separate question is whether adding something new for the new users (like "ten common mistakes to avoid") would bring something - considering that they are already provided with ton of information; and most of them do not read it. (It is virtually impossible to read all of it.)

You're recent comment suggests that you're thinking about new-users...?

I've tried this - maybe the chat invite did not work:

If you with (and if we can both spare a few minutes), we could discuss this for a while in chat. (If nothing else, to avoid making the comment thread too long and digressing too much.) — Martin Sleziak 28 secs ago

BTW wasn't there very recently some question on meta about something similar to "ten mistakes to avoid"?

Probably this one is the one I remembered: How about a "Warned" badge?

Mark Bennet

5:55 AM

I am just trying to be constructive about how to reduce barriers to entry precisely because there is so much material to navigate. What is the typical journey/experience of someone who is new to the site, and how does that actually enable someone new to participate well.

Martin Sleziak

Wouldn't this suggestion (if properly implemented) be a bit along the lines of you're trying to achieve: Would it be a good idea to have an introductory YouTube video (with subtitles in many languages) about math.stack?

Mark Bennet

At our local school we employ someone to make the school "learning environment" work for staff and pupils. Of course there are no easy answers, and there may be little to do, it may all have been thought about before, and we don't pay user-facing experts. It seems worth reflection occasionally, and it may be that in the "emerging from pandemic" phase some new issues and opportunities may emerge. So testing whether there are things worth doing, rather than assuming there are easy wins.

Martin Sleziak

@MarkBennet Of course, existence of some barriers is simply just consequence of how the world works. That's why it is - in general - recommended to be a "leecher" for some time before actually starting participating in some online community.

To use a naive example, if somebody uses public transport for the first time, maybe they don't know that they actually need a ticket.

Mark Bennet

@MartinSleziak That might well help along the lines I am suggesting. Although there is probably too much material for one video.

Martin Sleziak

Well, basically there seems to be two things which are basically contradictory to each other.

On one hand, you're complaining that there is "so much material to navigate."

Mark Bennet

6:00 AM

@MartinSleziak I certainly take that point - and if there are to be quality standards the barriers do act to educate potential users in community standards.

Martin Sleziak

And, at the same time, you say that if there was a video (or something else) with some introductory information, then "there is probably too much material for one video.".

Since you're often on meta, I am pretty sure you've seen this - but just in case, I've asked whether you looked at this question (and the answer): Is there a shorter and more opinionated version of "How to ask a good question?" that we can direct new users to?

Mark Bennet

@MartinSleziak I am not really complaining - just observing - and what I am wondering about is gateway material. Eg a good first video acts as a gateway, but people who respond well to that might well be looking for further videos: eg on formatting and typesetting. And I think sometimes gateway material can try to do too much and this be less effective.

@MartinSleziak Thanks, I will look at that. I have to duck out now for the day job.

Martin Sleziak

Ok, see you later!

And sorry for taking your time with my grumpy comments...

1 hour later…

ryang

7:06 AM

@MartinSleziak After submitting this feedback via the Contact link several months ago, I got a stock reply (IIRC, it was to the effect of, perhaps take this to meta). I never followed up, and I'm now reminded that if I do, I should incorporate a link to the above table into my suggested welcome banner/disclaimer.

* banner/disclaimer—after all, my collaborating to tweak it several times since its birth arose from the very same frustration that motivated this feedback.

* that if I do—well, if anyone does—we should

Martin Sleziak

@MarkBennet I am not sure whether the above comments were intended to be for me or for you - but they are related to the post and the table I linked above.

4 hours later…

ryang

11:08 AM

@MartinSleziak Just updating that said submitted feedback came to no fruition (unsurprisingly), and thinking aloud that should anyone of us want to advocate similar points (via one of the Meta forums), this table may be worth highlighting. I didn't originally mention the table in the feedback because it had been off-the-cuff and rather hasty. Anyways.

9 hours later…

Xander Henderson

7:48 PM

@MartinR I've deleted a bunch of comments here (since they are off-topic), but really---thanks! I learned some new Approach0 functionality today, which is quite nice to know.

@MartinSleziak Maybe "lurker" would be a better term than "leecher"?

("lurking" doesn't seem to have the negative connotations that "leecher" has)

2 hours later…

Martin Sleziak

10:11 PM

@XanderHenderson I am probably used to this word from foras and communities where some kind of files (or other content) was created/shared.

Not sure to which extent it would be considered as negative in this particular context. Basically, it is about recommendation to visit a view forum a lot before starting actually contributing something - in order to learn a bit how the site (the community) works first.

Here I see a few discussions using leech or leecher. But lurker is used more often in discussions on per-site-metas.

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