Discussion on Education Opportunities on MSE

user84215

11:16

@AJHenderson As I said in my posts, in this project asking and answering questions would be organized. I want to mention two points to clarify probable unclear things.

user84215

@AJHenderson First, Although this university and the main site of the MSE would look the same practically, their natures are very different. The MSE University is a university while the main site of the MSE is only a Q/A site which is similar to a library. Is the main site of the MSE a university?
As I said in my posts, this university would have all main things that a real university has (like courses, research groups, ...), but all of them would be performed through asking and answering in the MSE chat rooms.

user84215

Second, I think most people (I mean the people who study math because they love math and want to learn more and do research, not for earning reputation, rewards, privileges, degrees, money, ...) want to find the answers to their questions through discussion, not by receiving the whole answer at once. They do not want to learn something by asking a stylish, rigorous question and then receiving strict answers. They want to discuss a broad range of subjects, not a concentrated question.

ACuriousMind

12:26

@MathematicsAminPhysics If this room is "only for people interested in the idea", then why did you drop a link to this room without explaining what it is for in our chatroom, so that anyone clicking on it will visit this room whether they are interested or not?

user84215

@ACuriousMind That post has been moved from another room by a moderator.

user84215

That room has been frozen by the moderator.

ACuriousMind

@MathematicsAminPhysics So why do you tell users to read that conversation up there as "Please only read the following" if what's written there is not actually about this room?

Only leads to me being more confused about what this room is for, or why you linked it in our chat.

user84215

@ACuriousMind Yes, you are right. I should have deleted that post from the bookmark.

AJ Henderson

@MathematicsAminPhysics right, what I'm getting at is how would it be organized that would be different from the way the site currently operates? SE IS organized. It has fairly strong standards for making sure questions are as reusable as possible, duplicates are removed, tags are added to categorize for easier finding, it is rigorously moderated by the community as well as elected moderators. What kind of organization would you be adding? What is currently missing?

SE already takes flack from a lot of corners of the internet for being "too organized". They may not complain about it directly, but people get frustrated by their posts being closed because they are either duplicates, they don't ask a question that is clearly answerable or simply fail to ask a question clearly

I don't understand what you hope to be changing as far as "organizing" the questions

@MathematicsAminPhysics this is true of those seeking to ask questions and learn, but that isn't what attracts the kind of high quality information resources you want to attract. What you are describing sounds more like discussion groups or study groups than a university. The key distinction between them is that a university has someone much more knowledgeable facilitating the study to make sure that errors aren't made and that things aren't missed

user84215

12:41

@AJHenderson By "being organized" I mean the Q/A process would be happen in an organized educational system.

AJ Henderson

however, the problem is that discussion groups aren't really particularly rewarding for participants who know vastly more than the topic being covered.

something like SE draws those people in by offering the ability to have a very wide and long lasting reach in helping others

but discussion groups don't offer much value beyond those directly involved in the group

so you still have the scaling problem to try to figure out a way to make it valuable to the "teachers"

who have very different motivations from the students

and yes, that isn't true of all teachers, but it is true of a very large portion of the high quality SE answerers as that's one of the main draws for people to answer on SE

still not saying the idea can't work, but it needs to figure out how to draw in the people who are going to teach and I suspect that will be harder than you think

@MathematicsAminPhysics do you have specific examples of what you mean? I honestly have no idea what you are trying to get at

do you simply mean it would be organized topically?

around the "classes"

because those are still basically tags

you seem to have the idea of having it be something that is conducted like a conventional one on several class, but I don't think you'll see much success with that, you need it to scale well

and I'm not just saying that, that comes from experience with previous efforts. Microsoft tried a project for a while with online courses and it wasn't able to keep it going because it didn't scale well, that's where the idea for things like Khan Academy evolved from

user84215

As I said in my posts, there exists no teacher, who wants to present the study materials, in this project.

AJ Henderson

and even SE for that matter

user84215

You mean scaling teachers?

AJ Henderson

@MathematicsAminPhysics ok, so how does it work then, you've made some vague claims but I haven't seen anything about how it actually works with no teacher

maybe it would help if you tried writing up what you expect the average experience for how a student would use it and how an "answerer" would use it

that would probably clear up a lot of the confusion

part of the issue may just be that I don't know that you are clearly conveying what you are trying to get at

(fyi, my main interest at this point is that I love community management problems, I'm one of the Community Management.SE mods)

user84215

12:50

Have you read my posts completely?

AJ Henderson

it's certainly an interesting idea. I still have my reservations about the possibilities of it working. I did read through them completely, but was still not clear

I did not get a chance to read the original meta

skullpatrol

How about a Blog? @MathematicsAminPhysics

ACuriousMind

I've read through the conversation you told newcomers to this room to read thrice now and I have to say I have no coherent picture of what this is actually about. What I gathered from the description is: A university with degrees and teachers and researchers and courses and classes, but without teachers, and online, and without anyone getting paid. But I have no idea how a class will actually work or how students will be selected or who vets the teachers/tutors (who may or may not exist?)

AJ Henderson

@ACuriousMind yes, very much this

it's hard to offer constructive feed back or even bring up what problems it's likely to encounter that need solving when I seem to be having a hard time grasping what you are actually envisioning practically

user84215

I know there are many issues about this project. But as I said in my posts, this is a raw idea. "We are here to give our opinions about it and see whether we can convert impossibilities to possibilities or not. If we succeed in performing this idea, then we will win; if we do not,then we will also win since we would gain a new experience."

AJ Henderson

12:55

because sometimes it sounds like discussion groups, sometimes it sounds like its no different from SE but would somehow give degrees, sometimes it sounds like an live Q/A session with one or more subject matter experts

ACuriousMind

@MathematicsAminPhysics Well, but I cannot give my opinions on something I do not understand!

It's not that I think your proposal is bad, it's that I have no idea what that proposal actually is.

AJ Henderson

@MathematicsAminPhysics ok, so are you saying that you don't really have an idea of what it practically looks like either and are still trying to figure it out as well then? That makes sense, your wording in your responses just sounded more like you had a particular idea in mind

if that's the case, I'd suggest a good starting point is figuring out a) the primary goals, from that b) figure out what would need to be able to be met to reach those goals, and from there c) figure out if there is a way to make it actually work

without solid goals, we're likely to just spin wheels going in circles about what the goals actually are

user84215

Let us examine each issue separately.

AJ Henderson

as a practical example, if you want to be credential granting, then there has to be a means of judging if someone meets the criteria, which means it needs some type of merit determination system

and that, right off the bat, is going to present it's own set of challenges

I actually need to go for now, but I'll be back later

user84215

As I said in my posts, we need to determine a committee for that.

skullpatrol

13:00

Cya

user84215

like the moderators of the SE.

skullpatrol

Why don't you organize all your posts on a blog?

user84215

The main issue is holding classes?

user84215

I am not expert enough to create a blog and then organize my posts in it.

user84215

The main issue is holding classes?

skullpatrol

13:03

Never too late to learn :-)

ACuriousMind

@MathematicsAminPhysics Is it? I think the first thing that needs to be clarified is what the actual goal is

Because "free knowledge" is a goal that is already fulfilled by SE as it exists.

user84215

Goal: Creating a free university

user84215

learning by self-study and then discuss the problems and issues.

user84215

In general, creating a scientific community

user84215

to prepare the people who want to learn mathematics and do research

ACuriousMind

13:08

@MathematicsAminPhysics What does that mean? A university as the word is commonly understood has buildings where there are offices and labs, is engaged in scholarly research, and provides certificate/degrees. You can fund this by tuition (American model, roughly) or by taxes (European model, roughly), but it certainly cannot be "free".

user84215

I think we do not need the physical buildings that you have mentioned to fulfill the above goals

ACuriousMind

@MathematicsAminPhysics You can already learn through self-study and then ask questions about what you don't understand on SE, or have discussions in chatrooms. What specifically beyond that do you aim to provide?

3

user84215

Can you create a research group?

user84215

Are those chat rooms organized?

ACuriousMind

@MathematicsAminPhysics No, because being a researcher in a research group is a full-time job, unless you understand something different under "research group" than I do.

@MathematicsAminPhysics Organized in what sense? They do have room owners and moderators that organize them.

user84215

13:15

No. I do not consider researching as a full-time job.

user84215

I understand what you say. I mean we can organize these rooms.

user84215

For those who want to start studying math

user84215

and want to be researchers

user84215

without wanting to earn degree, money, ...

ACuriousMind

Frankly, I don't think it is feasible for most people to be a "researcher" without being employed as one. And I still don't understand what you mean by "organize" - can you give an example?

user84215

13:20

Do you think all people want to learn math to have a job or get degree or earn money or ... ?

user84215

By "organize", I mean to have a educational program

user84215

For example, devoting a chat room for a specific course

user84215

and guiding the students about which courses they should participate

user84215

like any other university

user84215

For each degree they have a specific program. Right?

user84215

13:26

For example phd program

ACuriousMind

@MathematicsAminPhysics No, I mean that you have to devote time equivalent to a full-time job to being an actual researcher.

@MathematicsAminPhysics When you say "chat room for a specific course", then what does the course consist of?

user84215

Ok. We should do it

ACuriousMind

Is it just that chat room? Is there a lecture? Is there course material, homework?

user84215

As I said in my posts, for each course there exists a tutor who determines the study materials (not presenting them).

user84215

Then students can discuss their issues and problems with each other and the tutor.

ACuriousMind

13:30

So, the tutor assigns a list of materials the students should read, and they use the chat room to discuss the material.

user84215

Yes, to discuss their issues and problems.

ACuriousMind

That's not how universities work, in my experience, but okay.

user84215

I think this is the best method to learn science.

ACuriousMind

You have some major open issues there, though: 1. How can the students trust the tutor is actually competent? 2. What happens if the tutor is not competent after all? 3. How is this an improvement over people just doing ordinary self-study and asking on SE if they don't understand something?

user84215

1- I think they may be selected by a trusted community. And also please consider this fact that they would be monitored by others, and students can complain about them. (this issue may also be happened in other universities) 2- Another tutor would be substituted 3- Please see chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/39543440#39543440

user84215

13:51

Please do not forget that this project would provide an organized way for preparing people to be researchers.

ACuriousMind

@MathematicsAminPhysics Complain to whom? Substituted by whom? You're just moving the problem one step up the chain of command, and unlike the Q&A of SE there's no voting mechanism here that could serve as a check.

@MathematicsAminPhysics So...are they supposed to discuss the course material assigned for that week, or a "broad range of subjects". These two things seems somewhat at odds.

user84215

Voting in SE is unfair in many case, as you know. complain to the trusted committee, substituted by the trusted committee.
They would discuss the materials for that week with broad views to the issues, not focusing on answering to question in a rigorous and strict way.
@ACuriousMind I must go now. Please post your opinions; I will check them then.

user84215

Thanks for your useful comments.

AJ Henderson

14:16

@MathematicsAminPhysics that's putting an awful lot on that committee to do in free time. Note, this is coming from someone who moderates not one, but four SE sites. SE's model isn't perfect for sure, voting often (not super often, but often enough that it isn't always accurate) does get used incorrectly, but what it offers is that it generally handles most things well and reduces the work for the moderators to manageable levels in free time, vs being a full time job

the "trusted committee" can't be a catch all for every situation because at that point they become school administrators, which is a full time job and can't be practically done for free

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ Discussion on Education Opportunities…