Mormonism: The MTC

PyRulez

15:35

They have a form for believers in Atheism (I'm no atheist, but I don't think atheists would go to beliefnet.com to do atheist things.)

Adám

@PyRulez Doesn't that make atheism a religion?

Mayube

there's an argument that atheism is a religion, I wouldn't say it's incorrect

PyRulez

I guess. If Christianity is monotheistic, and Hinduism is polytheistic, then atheism would be nullitheistic, right?

Or would it be medentheisitc?

Mayube

although, the primary dictionary definition of religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, so unless you consider physics/science a "superhuman controlling power"...

Adám

@PyRulez Yes, but Christianity is tritheistic.

Mayube

15:38

God, Christ... Satan?

Adám

@Mayube That would rule out (some forms of) Buddhism.

PyRulez

@Mayube I think he's talking about Holy Ghost.

So I guess Satanic cults are the only truly monotheistic belief systems.

Business Cat

Atheism is not a religion. If a person had a religion variable, an atheist would have it equal to null

Adám

@PyRulez Judaism, Islam.

Mayube

@PyRulez but Christians believe in Satan, they believe he is "evil", but they still believe in him as a higher power

PyRulez

15:40

Well, they believe he exists,

Business Cat

Belief != worship

Mayube

honestly my favourite religion joke to date is the one Bill Wurtz made in The history of the entire world, I guess

PyRulez

It depends what you mean by "believe in" (i.e. does it mean "beliefs that exists" or "beliefs what they teach")

Mayube

@BusinessCat I didn't say they worshipped him

Business Cat

@Mayube Exactly, I was agreeing with you :P

PyRulez

15:41

I feel like we're going to accidentally start a flame war soon.

Mayube

Also, Christians believe there is only one God or Deity therefore Christianity is Monotheistic

ETHproductions

That's about what I was going to say

PyRulez

Time to rope the religion.se sites into this.

Leaky Nun

@Mayube and what is that?

Adám

@Mayube So Jesus is not divine according to Christianity?

Mayube

15:42

@Adám Jesus is not a God or Deity according to Christianity, he is, by all accounts, a Demigod

Leaky Nun

@Adám Christians believe that those are three forms of the same God

@Mayube that is, according to which Christianity that is

PyRulez

I think the argument is basically that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost only use their godly powers in a unified way, so they are only one in their Godhood.

ETHproductions

Time to summon El'endia :P

PyRulez

So branches of Christianity even consider those three different names for the same person.

Adám

@PyRulez :38080694 Too complicated for me. I'll just stick with my unquestionably monotheistic system.

Leaky Nun

15:44

@PyRulez there are many branches of Christianity

some are in contradiction with each other

Mayube

@LeakyNun throughout the video he's referring to the forming of various religions by explaining the event or occurance that "started" the religion, they saying "Hey we could make a religion out of this...". Later on he's talking about how a frenchman who helped spearhead the french revolution became obsessed with guillotining people, and then he says "Hey we could make a religion out of-No Don't"

Leaky Nun

@Mayube lol

Mayube

@Adám your religion also significantly predates all sects of christianity :P

ETHproductions

About whether the Trinity renounces the monotheism of Christianity: christianity.stackexchange.com/a/17321

Adám

@Mayube True. And no matter what people believe about Jesus, no-one denies that he and I have the same religion…

Mayube

15:49

@Adám That's true, always worth remembering that Jesus Christ was jewish. Also worth remembering that, whether or not he is the "son of god" as Christians believe, it is widely accepted that Jesus Christ was a real person during the mid-late Roman empire

PyRulez

Of course, we probably don't want to get into the fact that the word for "God" in the old testament was often plural (Elohim).

Adám

@Mayube Yep. According to Jewish sources contemporary to him, he went to rabbinical school.

PyRulez

Know the question is whether we can turn this conversation into a code-golf challenge.

Q: Print the name of a religion popularity-contest

Adám

@PyRulez You just did. The pronoun used in connection with Elohim is "Hu", which is singular. It is clearly a pluralis majestatis.

@PyRulez Does Jedi religion count?

MD XF

@PyRulez print("the name of a religion")

Mayube

15:53

also worth noting that I'm an atheist and most of my religious studies have been largely focused on Classical Mythology (Greek, Egyptian, Norse etc), so frankly I'm a little in over my head with all this :P

PyRulez

print("atheism") (gets 42 downvotes)

(And then people argue whether it got downvotes for people not liking atheism or atheism not being a religion)

Adám

@PyRulez print("Islam") (there can be only 1 vote)

Mayube

print("Code golfing")

3

DJMcMayhem

Hmmm. I just walked into this conversation, and I feel like calling Christianity Trithiestic is a bit of a stretch, but I can't really argue with it

Adám

@Mayube The religion which dictates genocide on bytes.

Mayube

15:56

@DJMcMayhem as we mentioned also, it depends on which sect of christianity

PyRulez

I think it mores of a matter of how you define n-theistic as well.

Mayube

as a brit growing up in a protestant community, I never once heard mention of the Trinity, it was always God and his son Jesus

DJMcMayhem

Wait really? Are there denominations that don't believe in the Trinity?

PyRulez

The Trinity is the doctrine that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are seperate people but one God, or something like that.

I think all sects of Christianity believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost to some extent, just not the doctrine of Trinity.

Mayube

@PyRulez they are not eachother, but they are all god

Leaky Nun

15:57

@DJMcMayhem something mormon or something jehovah witness or that sort

Mayube

@PyRulez I never heard mention of the holy ghost either

Leaky Nun

@Mayube I consider "trinity" as a more technical term...

@Mayube have you heard of "holy spirit" then?

which denomination are you in?

PyRulez

Mormons believe in the God Head, in which God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost make up one unified organization (called the God Head), but have separate spirits. Also God and Jesus have separate bodies, and the Holy Ghost has no body.

DJMcMayhem

@LeakyNun Not to start a flamewar or anything, but I'd consider those completely incompatible with Christianity. The entire belief systems are different.

PyRulez

And Jesus Christ was just a spirit until he was born.

DJMcMayhem

15:59

26

Q: What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

What is the doctrine of the Trinity as defined by Christianity? Obviously there are three entities involved: God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, but is there more to the definition?

trinity

Leaky Nun

@DJMcMayhem according to Christianity.SE, those considered Christians are those that proclaim themselves are Christians.

PyRulez

(well, more than "just a spirit", but I mean he had no physical body)

Leaky Nun

@DJMcMayhem and of course I have no problem if you use a different definition.

DJMcMayhem

@LeakyNun Hmmm, interesting. Link?

Mayube

@LeakyNun I mean, as I said above, I'm athiest, but I grew up in a predominantly protestant community. I don't know specifically what denomination of protestantism it was though

Leaky Nun

16:01

5

Q: Who is a Christian for this site?

I'm concerned about the proliferation of privately held opinion ("I think") vs. sourceable manifestations of Christianity. In large part, our definition invites this, since the definition of Christian is "anyone who identifies themselves as such" How can we get scholarly answers about recogniza...

discussion

> In large part, our definition invites this, since the definition of Christian is "anyone who identifies themselves as such"

I've not found the actual definition though.

MD XF

@DJMcMayhem No they're not, really...

Leaky Nun

@DJMcMayhem ... and I'm not interested to find it

DJMcMayhem

Ah, that actually makes a lot of sense. Because they're using that definition to determine site participation, so if someone (for example, me) thought that Mormonism or some other church that identifies as Christian isn't actually a Christian, that doesn't mean I can tell them not to participate on the site

Mayube

also @DJMcMayhem there are denominations that do not believe in the Trinity

PyRulez

I'm not sure why people think that mormons and jws aren't Christian. Isn't Christian just those who believe that Jesus is divine?

Mayube

16:04

one example I found is Polish Brethren

PyRulez

and follow him

DJMcMayhem

@PyRulez I think the other important element is believing that salvation comes from his death and believing in him and not from human works.

Mayube

@DJMcMayhem there's also the entire branch of Unitarianism, who's defining characteristic is that they do not follow the Trinity Doctrine

MD XF

@DJMcMayhem Just curious, what's your reasoning for stating that Mormonism isn't Christianity?

Leaky Nun

@PyRulez Jews aren't Christians. This has no controversy.

However, Mormons proclaim themselves as Christians.

PyRulez

16:06

I don't know about JW, but I'm pretty sure mormons follow that doctrine. The only caveat is that human action is required to accept salvation, due to free will.

MD XF

And they're not all that different from typical Christians, except they don't believe in the Trinity

Mayube

Mormons consider themselves christians, and largely have the same teachings as christianity

MD XF

@Mayube ninja'd :P

PyRulez

Q: Is this religion christian? code-golf regex-golf

MD XF

Off-topic

Mayube

16:08

print("yes")

PyRulez

while(1){}

DJMcMayhem

@MDXF I don't know the LDS beliefs super well, so I'm going to pick my words very carefully, and probably read up on their beliefs a little more before responding. But mostly it's the belief in salvation through works not grace which goes against most of the Bible. But I'd like a more detailed answer, so give me a few minutes

MD XF

@DJMcMayhem lds.org/topics/grace?lang=eng

> Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.

Mayube

also I have to say, out of all the religions I've seen out there, if I were religious I'd probably be Unitarian

PyRulez

My understanding of lds doctrine is that if your works aren't good, Satan will trick you into not accepting grace.

Basically

MD XF

16:12

@PyRulez No, that's not really how it is at all. Mormons believe that Satan tempts us to do wrong, and then if you follow the wrong path you won't get into the "Celestial Kingdom"

IIRC, Mormons believe that grace is for everyone, so everyone receives immortality, but only those who use Jesus Christ's atonement and try to live like he did can live with God forever

PyRulez

That's why I said Basically. When I said "satan tricking you into not accepting grace", I meant him tempting you to commit sin.

MD XF

Ah yes

PyRulez

I there are definitely different amounts of grace.

Everyone gets resurrected, yes.

Adám

@DJMcMayhem I agree.

PyRulez

(Well, everyone who chooses comes to Earth, so even in that way you can be tricked into even getting resurrected.)

(*chooses to come)

MD XF

16:16

tricked into getting resurrected?

PyRulez

I mean not getting resurrected.

If you don't come to earth, you won't get resurrected.

MD XF

@PyRulez Another LDS belief: If you didn't choose to come to Earth, you chose to follow Satan into hell. If you come to Earth then you accepted God's plan and will, therefore, return to His kingdom

Mayube

@MDXF if you don't come to earth?

MD XF

@Mayube Mormons believe there was a war in heaven

PyRulez

@MDXF Oh dang, we went to deep.

MD XF

16:18

Basically God said Jesus was gonna be the one to come to Earth and save us all from destruction

(Mormon belief)

And Lucifer (Satan) stepped up and said "no, I'll do it, but I'll take away their agency and take their glory"

So God told everyone in Heaven to make a decision, then cast Lucifer to Hell and everyone who followed him

(IIRC)

PyRulez

Okay, a quick run down on what Mormons call the plan of salvation: 1) God had us and Jesus as spirit children 2) God said we should go to earth and have free will 3) Satan said free will is bad 4) God kicked Satan out and Satan got a bunch of people to follow him 4) People who didn't follow him come to Earth 5) Jesus dies for the people's sin 6) Everyone who came to earth gets resurrected and goes to one of the three heavens

DJMcMayhem

As far as I understand, they also believe you will continue to be married in heaven.

MD XF

@DJMcMayhem Yes I think so

They believe that families are eternal, it's one of their main beliefs

But I don't understand that; which family do you live with, the one you were born into or the one you birthed?

Okay end of discussion then

PyRulez

@MDXF Both, probably in a giant family tree

MD XF

(pls don't move to Trash, is there a Christianity SE general discussion room you could move all this into?)

PyRulez

16:23

Okay end of discussion

Awesome

MD XF

@DJMcMayhem Feel free to move the messages from TNB about Christianity here

DJMcMayhem

Might take me a while. There are a lot

But I'll start on it

PyRulez

Also, should this be about Mormonism in general, or just about the LDS church specifically.

Because there is a huge amount of diversity, and I only really know about the LDS church.

MD XF

room topic changed to The MTC: General discussion about Mormonism, the LDS Church, and related Christian talk [christianitiy] [discussion] [mormonism]

room topic changed to The MTC: General discussion about Mormonism, the LDS Church, and related Christian topics [christianitiy] [discussion] [mormonism]

@PyRulez Where were we?

(I own three rooms now, I feel special)

PyRulez

About how families are sealed together in one big group.

MD XF

16:34

Oh yes

DJMcMayhem

← 135 messages moved from The Nineteenth Byte

MD XF

Wow

Thanks (non-sarcastic)

PyRulez

So, basically, when people get married, they are sealed together, and then their children are sealed to them.

MD XF

Yeah

PyRulez

Ideally, this should go from Adam and Eve down to the last generation, but sealing is a covenant, and so can be broken.

Basically, if you aren't faithful to your spouse and don't repent, for example.

Uh, I found the link: lds.org/topics/education/eternal-family?lang=eng&old=true

MD XF

16:36

That's interesting

PyRulez

Oh wait, that's a different one

MD XF

So if one breaks their covenant what happens

Who do they live with?

PyRulez

Oh, I found it: lds.org/topics/families?lang=eng

President Boyd K. Packer taught, “The ultimate purpose of every teaching, every activity in the Church is that parents and their children are happy at home, sealed in an eternal marriage, and linked to their generations” (“The Father and the Family,” Ensign or Liahona, May 1994). Family relationships extend beyond the grave when we are sealed by the priesthood of God in a holy temple and remain faithful.

They will live in either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom if they don't repent.

MD XF

Ohh that makes sense

PyRulez

In which, as far I know, has no family units per se.

MD XF

16:37

Yeah

PyRulez

But they are still pretty good places to be.

In the Telestial Kingdom, you get ministered to by the Holy Ghost and people from the Terrestial Kingdom.

DJMcMayhem

@MDXF Why did you name this The MTC?

MD XF

Yeah, they're supposed to be beyond the glory of Earth but below the glory of the Celestial Kingdom

@DJMcMayhem Missionary Training Center

DJMcMayhem

Oh

PyRulez

In the Terrestial Kingdom you get ministered to by Jesus Christ himself! (And people from the celestial kingdom if I remember correctly.)

MD XF

16:39

I've heard the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms compared to the moon and stars while the Celestial kingdom is the Sun

PyRulez

So you won't necessarily never see your family.

MD XF

Okay

PyRulez

They'll be holy beings though, so living with them would cause problems.

MD XF

Where does spirit prison come into the picture (I know nearly nothing about it but I've heard ~~talk~~ the term)

PyRulez

Since they'll be cleansed of sin.

MD XF

16:40

That makes sense

PyRulez

So their is spirit prison, and spirit paradise, which are both temporary.

Spirit prison is where those who aren't Mormon (or Mormons who break covenants) go after they die. Spirit paradise is where those who have been saved already go.

People in Spirit prison can still be preached to.

MD XF

Mormons who break covenants or general commandments, right?

PyRulez

Jesus started this work when between his death and resurrection (described at lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3.29?lang=eng#19)

Basically, yeah.

MD XF

Also I thought the LDS belief was that you don't necessarily have to be LDS to get into Heaven, i.e. if you never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel you wouldn't have any reason to be restricted from Heaven

PyRulez

Well, that's where the preaching comes in.

MD XF

16:42

(If I'm improperly capitalizing stuff let me know)

PyRulez

If you aren't LDS when you die, an LDS spirit will preach to you in the Spirit.

MD XF

* Spirit world (right?)

PyRulez

So for example, my grand pa, who is now past, has probably converted some people on the other side.

Yes, in the Spirit World.

MD XF

Huh, interesting

PyRulez

If only people who where LDS or Christian in this life where saved, then the plan would have been a failure already.

Which it obviously wasn't, since God knew what was going to happen.

That's why mormons due temple work.

MD XF

16:45

Yeah that wouldn't make too much sense :P especially since Mormons believe in the Bible "as far as it is translated correctly" IIRC and the Bible says that the Jews were God's chosen ppl

@PyRulez Like baptisms for the deceased and such

PyRulez

In the temple, mormons are baptised on behalf of their ancestors who have died.

Yep

Which they either accept or reject.

MD XF

Oh it's a choice?? Huh I always thought it was if you were baptized for then you were ... huh

PyRulez

Also, when you are baptised, you actually are adopted by Abraham.

Oh no, there is always a choice.

MD XF

So that one statement "Which they either accept or reject." could dissuade many people's complaints with the church

PyRulez

You see baptism is a covenant.

Oh yes of course.

MD XF

16:46

Like "you're baptizing in his name but he didn't ask to be baptized so you're taking away his agency"

I've ~~heard~~ seen news articles in which people complain about that

PyRulez

It would be like Missionaries knocking on your door.

MD XF

Which also annoys people but slightly less :P (no offense)

PyRulez

And we also preach to people who haven't been born yet by having children.

(Well, by the time they are able to understand anything, they've been born of course.)

MD XF

That makes quite a bit of sense

PyRulez

Basically, no matter where you're at, Mormons are going to try converting ya.

MD XF

16:48

Except Israel (it's illegal there)

PyRulez

And China right now.

MD XF

Oh yeah China too

Adám

@MDXF REally?

PyRulez

And Russia

MD XF

Huh I thought I knew a missionary who preached in Russia

PyRulez

16:48

Also, I didn't know it was illegal in Israel.

MD XF

@Adám Yeah

PyRulez

It was pretty recent.

MD XF

Yeah I lived there for a time and they're not very lenient about preaching other gospels

Yet Mormons have a BYU in Israel ಠ_ಠ

PyRulez

So there are five steps in the gospel, according to mormons.

1) Faith in Jesus Christ, and the belief that they can help him to repent no matter the circumstance

MD XF

Then Repentance, correct?

PyRulez

16:50

2) Repentance and forsaking of sins

Adám

@MDXF Are you allowed to preach Judaism in Israel?

PyRulez

Yes

MD XF

Isn't there some kind of faith article about this?

PyRulez

@Adám Its their national religion, so yes.

MD XF

@Adám I'm pretty sure they restrict the preaching of other religions so that the Jews stay Jewish :P

Adám

16:51

@PyRulez Really. I didn't know.

PyRulez

lds.org/topics/faith?lang=eng

3) Baptism by immersion, which cleanses you of your sins. (This is only possible after you've repented of them.)

4) Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost

5) Enduring to the End (which means keeping the commandsment and such)

MD XF

Wait - but baptism starts at eight years old, so they want small children to repent of sins??

PyRulez

It is only by Faith that someone can accomplish these things.

Adám

@MDXF Wikipedia disagrees:

Religion in Israel

Religion in Israel is a central feature of the country and plays a major role in shaping Israeli culture and lifestyle, and religion has played a central role in Israel's history. Israel is also the only country in the world where a majority of citizens are Jewish. According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the population in 2011 was 75.4% Jewish, 20.6% Arab, and 4.1% minority groups. The religious affiliation of the Israeli population as of 2011 was 75.4% Jewish, 16.9% Muslim, 2.1% Christian, and 1.7% Druze, with the remaining 4.0% belonging to minor faiths such as Samaritanism, Baha...

PyRulez

Yes, but luckily, 8 year olds usually don't have significant sins.

MD XF

16:53

Ah :P

@Adám Wikipedia

PyRulez

It should be noted that even though there is an order, all stops need to be continued being followed.

You need to continue having faith in christ, or you'll fall in the sin.

MD XF

All I know is that the Missionaries are not allowed in Israel and they don't appreciate others preaching religion @Adám

PyRulez

You need to continue repenting, because you'll never be perfect in this life.

MD XF

@PyRulez That's the Enduring to the End part, right?

PyRulez

You need to always remember and keep the promises you made at baptism, or it becomes invalid.

Yep

You need to always heed the counsel of the Holy Ghost, and be worthy of its counsel, or you'll fall.

And you must never give up, even when things get hard.

MD XF

16:55

'cause the Holy Ghost prompts you to make the right decisions in times of need, correct?

PyRulez

If you do all these things, you will have, by the power of Jesus Christ and by your own choice, become free of sin.

Yep, the Gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have him as a constant companion and to receive guidance from him.

Adám

@MDXF Do you have a source for your claim?

Not that I care much. I have nothing to do with Israel. Just curious.

PyRulez

I was 9 was I baptized. I do not remember the baptism, but I do remember receiving the Holy Ghost, because I had a feeling things would never be the same.

MD XF

Wow

All I felt at 9 years old was the want for more Lego blocks :P

PyRulez

blogs.timesofisrael.com/…

MD XF

16:56

@Adám Yeah, the Missionaries are simply not allowed there

No Mormon missionary has ever preached in Israel

PyRulez

I probably wanted those things too.

Adám

@MDXF PrRulez's article seems to indicate otherwise.

PyRulez

Anyways, although I don't remember much, apparently I always become a lot better than.

They probably repealed the antiproselyting rules at some point, since they're part of the UN.

MD XF

@Adám Ctrl+F on that page for mormon, 0 results

PyRulez

I don't think they would ban mormon specifically.

This isn't the 1800s.

Adám

16:58

@PyRulez Huh, does the UN dictate allowing missions?

MD XF

The time of the persecution, correct?

PyRulez

Uhm, I don't think they require it, but they encourage it.

Yep, the 1800s was hard on members of the Church.

This was its early days.

MD XF

'cause of polygamy, which was a law that has been "fulfilled" (correct?)

PyRulez

That's why they all moved to Utah, no one else was there.

Yep.

MD XF

Yeah

and now Utah is Mormon-land :P

PyRulez

17:00

Although, I wouldn't say it was fulfilled, but not necessary any longer.

MD XF

Yeah that's more/less the definition of fulfilled

PyRulez

It was dangerous for unmarried woman before they settled in Utah.

MD XF

I'd like to discuss this further but I've gtg to a meeting, I'll probably be back at 19:00 UTC if you'd like to continue the discussion

PyRulez

Polygamy was always temporary anyways.

okay

PyRulez

21:27

@MDXF you can also check mormon.org, it has a bunch of info.

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