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Gayot Fow

00:41

Chalice Well 3, landing interview 2. Chalice Well wins by a nose

Mark Mayo

Hats are available!

Well to me at least :)

might be a timezone thing if not for the rest of you

Gayot Fow

01:03

Even TSE META gets an RT!

Zach Lipton

hats are here for me too

mts

"our" leaderboard winterbash2016.stackexchange.com/leaderboard/…

Zach Lipton

01:25

I voted on meta and didn't get a hat yet :/

hmm, I did on the leaderboard but not in my inbox. Guess it's delayed

Mark Mayo

02:38

2 hats so far for me :)

@mts and I are tie first

Glad there is a hat for bounties, but I really wish there were more hats addressed at editing, tags, answering questions that are unanswered for a month and the like

I love ones that help clean up the site and address languishing questions

had for closing questions is good too

Relaxed

09:51

Was looking for a duplicate for the "not flying first leg of an itinerary" and I noticed it's a bit of a mess

We have many questions around what's essentially the same problem but sometimes they are not exact duplicates or good answers on closed questions and no accepted answer on the ones that were left open...

Should we try to use this one as the central one:

4

Q: Consequences of not showing up for one leg of journey

Recently I booked a flight using my points. I am planning to fly to Seattle WA from Indianapolis Indiana. Stop over is Chicago. On the day of my flight I am supposed to be in Chicago. So I was wondering if I can directly board my Seattle flight from Chicago thereby not showing up in Indianap...

Rory Alsop

@GayotFow that reminded me to update - I had forgotten to add Ascension Island

chx

12:23

I have dropped a close vote on travel.stackexchange.com/questions/84635/… 33 seconds after it being posted, let's see how quickly can we close it together :D

chx

12:34

heh user deleted it 7 minutes after posting it, good job :)

Gayot Fow

14:44

The Sun tells us that one can score drugs by taking Uber taxis

Relaxed

15:29

Useful tip, should we ask a question about that?

Gayot Fow

@Relaxed That's going through my mind. I don't know how to frame it though

phoog

@Crazydre if Italy accepts the relationship as "durable" for freedom of movement then they are not required to allow visa-free entry, but they should issue a free visa without regard to the validity of any UK document.

Relaxed

We might run into some site's policies, though. Enforcement has not always been the most consistent but we are not supposed to ask questions or provide answers on how to do illegal things I think.

Crazydre

Alright, so: phoog wrote "If Italy accepts the relationship as qualifying under directive 2004/38/EC then it doesn't matter when the UK document expires"

However, doesn't Italy require you to present the FMM residence Card to be visa-exempt? After all, it is issued by the UK subject to assessment by the UKVI

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre the girlfriend has 28 different options for where to apply

Crazydre

15:34

That's where I got confused

Gayot Fow

You were reading the UK version

Which is a den of snakes

Relaxed

@Crazydre Visa-exempt yes, but not to be covered by the freedom of movement.

Gayot Fow

And then I remember that Brits cannot use the Directive in the UK in the first instance

Relaxed

Worse case scenario, if you are covered by the freedom of movement, is to have to apply for a visa, but using a simplified procedure.

Gayot Fow

they are disqualified

Crazydre

15:35

Saw that now, didn't know it applied to dual nationals as well

E.g. British/Italian

Gayot Fow

Yes, see the McCarthy case

Relaxed

Was going to mention it

phoog

@crazydre the question isn't about visa exemption.

Relaxed

But thinking about it, how does it bear on this question?

Crazydre

OK, so if OP's girlfriend is granted a Schengen visa under the 2004/38/EC Regulation, what conditions is she subject to?

Gayot Fow

15:37

@Relaxed Going to mention what?

Crazydre

I.e. how does it differ from a reular Schengen visa?

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre It's impossible to grant a Schengen under the 2004/38/EC regs

Relaxed

@GayotFow The McCarthy case

phoog

@Crazydre someone with freedom of movement can't be refused entry or expelled except for reasons of public policy, public safety, and public health.

Gayot Fow

Schengens are only granted under the code, as @Relaxed will no doubt remind us

Crazydre

15:40

OK, so what other options, if any, are there, besides applying for a Schengen visa the normal way?

Relaxed

@Crazydre It's free of charge, should be processed quickly, means of subsistence, etc. are not relevant you only have to prove (1) the relationship (2) the citizenship of the EU citizen spouse and (3) that both spouses are travelling together (or the non-EU spouse is joining the EU citizen spouse)

Gayot Fow

@Relaxed Cool, I didn't know you knew about McCarthy. Cool

phoog

@GayotFow that's not true. Some countries at least are granting C visas to comply with 2004/38/EC.

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre the girlfriend has two options........

Relaxed

@GayotFow Didn't know what? You have me utterly confused now.

Gayot Fow

15:41

She can get a Schengen or a family permit

@phoog who is doing that?

Crazydre

You mean an EEA Family permit? IIRC, it's not the same as an FMM residence card

What is the difference?

Gayot Fow

@Relaxed I like that you know about McCarthy, it's cool

phoog

@GayotFow she cannot go to Italy with a UK EEA family permit

Crazydre

@phoog Ah, so it's the same concept but in "reverse directions"

Gayot Fow

@phoog That's right :) you are cool too

Relaxed

15:43

@phoog I thought most countries did that, the sample form in the visa code is actually designed for it.

@GayotFow We talked about it before, several times if I am not mistaken.

Gayot Fow

@Relaxed OH, sorry, memory being what it is and all

phoog

@GayotFow Spain and I think another country. There were two recent questions about this. I think one was on expats.

Gayot Fow

So the gf can use durable relationship at the Italian consulate.

phoog

Another point: Italy is not required to extend freedom of movement rights to family of Italian citizens, but it has chosen to do so.

Crazydre

@phoog OK, so basically she has freedom of movement, but must still receive a visa?

phoog

15:46

@Crazydre a residence card allows visa-free travel. A family permit does not.

Crazydre

albeit under a simpler procedure

phoog

Also, isn't the Italian in Italy? If so, the gf can't get a family permit nor a residence card.

Crazydre

Isn't the EEA Family permit for the reverse case, ie. non-EEA nationals residing in Schengen coming to the UK to join an relative who is an EEA national?

Gayot Fow

@phoog your original comment 15 Nov, should have been the answer for the EEA part!

Relaxed

@Crazydre You can qualify for freedom of movement rights or apply for an EEA family permit if you live outside the EU.

phoog

15:49

@Crazydre yes, except that can reside anywhere, not just in Schengen.

Relaxed

It's unrelated to Schengen, it's about being married to an EU citizen.

Crazydre

Ah, get it now

phoog

@Relaxed not only married.

Crazydre

Found this btw http://it.vfsglobal.co.uk/eea_eu_family.html

One of the conditions is "the UK Residence permit literally bears the wording: Type of Document: "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National""

Can a BRP be issued with that wording?

Relaxed

Yes, true, not only married, family member

Gayot Fow

15:51

@Crazydre yeah but that EEA National excludes Brits

Crazydre

OK, including dual British-Italians I suppose?

Gayot Fow

Also read @Relaxed comment that I starred

@Crazydre Excludes duals also

Unless they use Singh

Crazydre

Right, know about that one

(Singh)

Gayot Fow

@phoog you should upgrate that comment to an answer, I will uv it

So the question is can Italians access the EEA regulation from inside Italy.

Crazydre

Good question

Trying to Google it

What benefit would it provide though?

Gayot Fow

15:57

@Crazydre don't google it, there's too much signal/noise ratio

@Relaxed and/or @phoog will tell you the answer

phoog

@GayotFow @Crazydre yes. There is an Italian law extending benefits of 2004/38/EC to family of Italian citizens when those benefits are more favorable than those otherwise given under Italian law.

Crazydre

@phoog Alright, and what documentation will the Person actually Need at the time of travel to certify that she's enjoying this benefit?

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre the documentation she needs is she cannot walk in and say she's in a durable relationship

phoog

She needs to apply for a visa before travel. At the time of travel she needs the visa and ought to have the proof of relationship she used to obtain it. She could also be asked to show that the Italian boyfriend is in Italy.

Crazydre

@phoog Think I get it now. Because her BF is British, she doesn't qualify for an FMM residence Card; however upon proving her relationship, she will be issued a Schengen visa gratis?

Gayot Fow

16:03

The Italians are going to want some evidence, I don't know if it's as rigorous as the UK's implementation

phoog

The benefit here is that she shouldn't be required to show that she has 90 days left on her British documents.

No. She doesn't qualify for the FMM card because the boyfriend isn't in Britain.

Crazydre

@phoog According to the section about EU/EEA Family members, the BRP still has to be valid for 90 days beyond the period of stay

phoog

@Crazydre do you have a link to that section?

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre T4's have a BRP anyway

Crazydre

@phoog it.vfsglobal.co.uk/eea_eu_family.html (press "document requirements")

Gayot Fow

16:05

Anything starting with a T has a BRP

phoog

I doubt that requirement would stand up in court, but that won't help in the short term.

Crazydre

@GayotFow Of course, anyone given over 6 months leave does. Didn't say otherwise o.O

@phoog Posted the link, the requirement is stated below the images of the sample residence cards

Still says "UK Residence permit valid for at least 90 days beyond the return date of the trip to the Schengen Area. Please also bring a photocopy if the residence permit is not endorsed in passport. "

And this is in the Special section called "EEA/EU Family (Short Stay Up To 90 Days)"

phoog

@Crazydre I see. That requirement does not comply with the directive. An applicant could try to talk her way past it at the consulate, but it might not be possible.

Gayot Fow

Are we all settled now???

phoog

On the other hand, it might be that the requirement is listed because the visa is classed as a "non-immigrant" visa, which isn't entirely accurate.

Crazydre

16:13

@phoog Another Thing: it says you must provide proof of travelling WITH the Partner, and doesn't mention the option of travelling to join them. If true, this would imply that, while Italian border police would theoretically let you in if you're travelling to joni your Partner, you would not be issued a visa in the first place unless travelling together with them

"Proof of joint travel with the EEA/EU National:

Fully paid return travel tickets must clearly show the names of the applicant and the EEA/EU National and when paid through a travel agency, then receipt, invoice or payment confirmation should be provided.
When travelling by car, please provide driver’s driving license, car registration, car insurance and travel tickets (ferry or Eurotunnel) showing the car’s registration number and passengers’names"

phoog

@Crazydre again that does not comply with the directive and is almost certainly attributable to carelessness in preparing the text for the web site.

Gayot Fow

I am interested in a knock-on aspect of the question.

@Crazydre that's a misprint, don't believe it

phoog

@GayotFow in what knock-on aspect are you interested?

Crazydre

@GayotFow Phew, that's good.

So, if I've got it right, her best option is applying for a Schengen visa for Family members (which would be issued gratis) and trying to talk her way past the requirement that her BRP be valid for 90 days beyond the date of return

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre no, not the best option

phoog

16:17

@Crazydre that seems right to me.

Crazydre

@GayotFow OK, her best option being?

Gayot Fow

@phoog Will they revoke her T4

phoog

@GayotFow why would they do that?

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre she can't just waltz in and claim a durable relationship

@phoog If she uses a family member route, it means she has switched to the EEA side, right

phoog

@GayotFow with respect to her status in Britain?

Gayot Fow

16:20

@phoog yeah, I'm wondering about that

Relaxed

You're very confusing today…

phoog

@GayotFow her British/Italian boyfriend resides in Florence. She has no basis for a claim of family immigration in the UK unless he goes there.

Crazydre

@GayotFow Ah, NOW I get it. FMM residence Cards are issued on the basis of moving to the UK because of having a relative there. As such, if the relative resides in another EEA state, it would make Little sense, and as such it's not allowed

Did I understand it right?

Gayot Fow

@phoog the point being that you cannot claim to have a durable relationship without evidence

Crazydre

@GayotFow Nevertheless, would the Border Force really revoke her BRP over that?

phoog

16:24

"without evidence"?

Gayot Fow

@phoog the regs say the duty imposed by the Directive to undertake “an extensive examination of the personal circumstances…” necessitates a balancing of the relevant factors counting for and against the issuing of such a card.

Crazydre

@phoog I assume Gayot means either an FMM residence Card (not applicable here as OP isn't resident in the UK) or a Schengen visa issued on the basis of the relationship

phoog

@Crazydre her BRP is issued on the basis of a student visa, not a family member.

Gayot Fow

an extensive examination of the personal circumstances

phoog

@GayotFow what are you talking about? The EEA regs 2006 are entirely irrelevant.

Gayot Fow

16:30

@phoog so how does she apply for free?

Crazydre

The section about this on the VFS Website states:

"Proof of relationship to the EEA/EU National:
Original marriage/birth certificate (+ photocopy):

if the marriage certificate is a non EU document (issued outside the EU), it should be legalised by the UK based Embassy/consulate of the country that issued the certificate and, if needed, translated into Italian or English by a certified translator in the UK

the unabridged birth certificate must clearly show both parents’ names and if the birth certificate is a non EU document (issued outside the EU), it should be legalised by the UK based …

Furthermore "If the marriage/birth certificate is not legalised by the respective country’s UK based Embassy or consulate, the applicant will be subjected to the appropriate visa fee. "

phoog

Under Italian and EU law. The EEA regs 2006 are British law.

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre but they are not married

phoog

@Crazydre that's for spouses and children.

Crazydre

In other words, OP's birth certificate must be legalised by the UK consulate in Italy in order for his gf' visa to be issued gratis

Yeah, just pointing out that's what it says in regards to proof of relationship

Hm, either the ones writing the website were noobs, or she is not able to apply for free for some reason

phoog

16:34

If they need the OP's birth certificate, which they probably don't, it's probably an EU document, so it probably doesn't need to be legalized.

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre right, my point :)

phoog

@GayotFow do you still think she'd lose her T4?

Gayot Fow

@phoog I haven't decided yet, I'm curious. I think they might and it would be a disaster knock-on

Crazydre

@phoog Her T4 and subsequent BRP were issued due to her studying in the UK. As long as that fact remains, at least to me it would Sound ridiculous for them to

phoog

@GayotFow on what grounds could she lose it?

Gayot Fow

16:37

@phoog that she switched

Crazydre

@GayotFow What Uk regulations states that she is not to claim a relationship with an EEA national as a T4 holder?

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre It's a question for me to think about

phoog

She's applying to visit her BF in Italy. How could that possibly affect her immigration status in the UK?

Crazydre

@phoog Well, if there is a regulation saying that a T4 holder is prohibited from claiming a relationship with an EEA national...makes Little sense to me, but hey, I'm not one of the British lawmakers

phoog

Remember, the BF does not reside in the UK. UK officials are not understanding any examination of the circumstances of the relationship; Italian officials are doing that.

Crazydre

16:41

@phoog Right, the Uk would have been involved only if OP's gf had applied for a UK-issued FMM residence Card, which she can't since OP doesn't live in the UK

phoog

Oh, so a Japanese student married to a German who is resident in Toronto cannot come to the UK on a T4?

Gayot Fow

@phoog yes, that works

phoog

@GayptFow surely they mean an EEA national who resides in the UK.

Gayot Fow

@phoog I don't know the answer, but when people switch they cannot use the UK rules

It's a different question from the OP's question

If that student switched into an EEA spouse would they revoke the T4?

phoog

@GayotFow she's not switching. She's claiming EU family status in Italy/Schengen, not in the UK. What is the actual wording of the law?

Gayot Fow

16:47

@phoog There wouldn't be a law, there would be cases, if any were brought

Crazydre

@GayotFow Wouldn't switching only be if OP resided in the UK?

He doesn't, and remember his GF is not after documentation for getting the right to be in the UK: she already has her BRP for that

This is about obtaining docs to enter the Schengen Area/Italy

How is obtaining docs for Schengen a way of switching Status in the UK?

Gayot Fow

@Crazydre As I said, it's something for me to check out. You can see that the OP wrote "After the defense of her thesis, she will be able to change her visa for a working visa and she will have a research contract, still in the UK. "

Crazydre

@GayotFow Yes, because then her purpose for being in the UK will change

But OK, regarding the original topic: assuming the Italian consulate accepts OP's GF's proof of her relationship with OP, would it be possible to be exempted from the rule that the BRP have 90 days left from the date of return?

Gayot Fow

I can see some correspondence from the Home Office about this in ILPA's archives. and will have to go and see what else there is........

I'll be back later, all the very best to @phoog @Crazydre for a great chat

Crazydre

Alright, Keep us posted

shirish

17:07

hi all,

can somebody vote/help to reopen travel.stackexchange.com/questions/84616/…

and can somebody peer-review travel.stackexchange.com/tags/indian-citizens/info

Rory Alsop

@shirish done

shirish

@RoryAlsop thank you.

@RoryAlsop do you think the edit of indian-citizens also improves it or not ?

travel.stackexchange.com/tags/indian-citizens/info

I am also curious why travel.stackexchange.com/questions/84554/… put on hold when clearly the question has interest, has some very interesting answers and is a factor when making plans to travel.

Rory Alsop

17:23

@shirish Hmmm - not sure. I think that looks very opinion based, as people may use different criteria entirely

mts

@Crazydre now that I find you in chat, congrats for 10k!

Rory Alsop

@shirish I can't see the previous edit

shirish

@RoryAlsop umm...previous edit for the tag or what ?

Rory Alsop

@shirish yes

shirish

I did it again, just added couple of words nothing big.

phoog

17:27

@shirish I think the indian-citizens tag should refer to citizens of India, no more, no less. A citizen of India can travel domestically in the US, for example, without an Indian passport, and the same is probably true in most countries.

shirish

right. I just wanted to explicitly make it clear as the term 'could be confusing' to some as was shown in the discussion.

phoog

Citizen of India is sufficiently unambiguous without being overly precise. Many Indian citizensif not most probably never held a passport of any sort, yet these people might want to use the tag to ask questions about travel within India.

shirish

ok, cool.

btw thank you whoever awarded me the hat, in these cold times (literally around 14 degree celcius), it is welcome :)

phoog

@shirish Try -5 Celsius.

shirish

@phoog thank you, but this is suffering enough, when we have 27 degrees and upper 30s as normal :)

btw... are there any tags which need to have info. ?

somewhere where I can help.

phoog

17:44

@Shirish for some of us upper 30s is suffering. 27 degreesis quite normal here, too.

shirish

@phoog , completely understand. This was eye-opening for me travel.stackexchange.com/questions/83181/…

I mean the answers therein.

Zach Lipton

yeah it's certainly a matter of cultural preference

and personal preference

shirish

anybody has any thoughts on travel.stackexchange.com/questions/84616/…

or am I thinking/knowing/making wrong conclusions ?

Rory Alsop

18:00

@shirish 14C is comfortable t-shirt weather for me

I am happiest between about -15 and +20. More than that is too hot for me

I cannot function over about 25

shirish

wow... and that would be too cold for me....brrrrr..... :)

Rory Alsop

When we holiday in the Mediterranean, I tend to hide in the shade for most of the day, or stay in the pool or sea to try and remain cool

Growing up at around 59N means heat is not normal :-)

that's about 50 miles further south than Greenland

shirish

yup, can understand that.

Rory Alsop

@shirish bizarrely, in another chat room we are discussing the challenges of a physical relationship with a fire elemental... more extreme cooling problem

The Factory Floor

Main chat room for worldbuilding.stackexchange.com

4

shirish

18:17

I was looking to find airports that are 'fun' and one of them, (forgot where, maybe middle east ? ) has sauna baths and hot springs inside the airport, airside.

Zach Lipton

hey @pnuts, how did you get the 180º hat?

Willeke

I got my first hat, now looking for more. But I will have to be out most of the night and tomorrow I also have very little time.

shirish

18:39

@Willeke why aren't you wearing it ?

Willeke

I do not like the 'father' hat.

And I have not yet worked out how to wear the hat, but that I would have done if I liked the hat.

shirish

There are some 'controls' for the hat, but can understand if you do not like the way it is.

Willeke

I did like most of the hats I won last year, this is just one I do not like.

I got to get ready to leave the house, birthday of sister in law.

shirish

ok, cool, enjoy - live long and prosper (vulcan proverb) :)

Willeke

144

Q: Winter Bash 2016 - All Hats

I decided to start the traditional secret hats post, but instead of just another "here is how you get the secret hats" post, to also add in all the hats. There are two answers: one for the secret hats, and one for the regular hats. Some notes about secret hats: A secret hat for correctly gue...

discussion winterbash secret-hats winterbash-2016

3

Wind to thy wings (Velgard Hawksborthers well wishing.)

pnuts

18:53

@ZachLipton Pure guess - maybe for voting to reopen travel.stackexchange.com/questions/68690/… after having VTC'd an earlier version?

Zach Lipton

@pnuts yeah it's on the page Willeke just linked, you've got it right

with an edit in the middle

pnuts

Yes, I removed references to Helsinki since the accepted A did not cover that city.

Gayot Fow

20:18

@phoog @Crazydre I found what was troubling me. It has to do with something else only tangentially related to the OP's issue. Regardless, I think it's better to get a full 360 view. In this case the relationship was tangential, but next time it might be significant.

phoog

@GayotFow will you be adding an answer?

Gayot Fow

@phoog No, my answer will stand. I looked at @Crazydre 's answer also and think that his could stand a minor edit suggesting that a solicitor's reading on how to get discretion can be helpful since they apparently did not get it.

mts

21:49

Bounty time:

7

Q: Can I have a sex toy in checked-in luggage traveling to Singapore?

I will be moving to Singapore and since the country has very strict rules I wonder if it is possible to take one sex toy with me in checked-in luggage? I want to respect all local rules and avoid any issues (it is a pink vibrator - not very realistic design packed in its original metal case). ...

air-travel luggage regulations singapore prohibited-items

If you don't answer I will edit the title to start with "OK, we are all adults here ..."

Willeke

You can change all you want, I do not know the answer and am not willing to google it. So NO answer from me.

mts

Just kidding, I will wait for the bounty to take effect first ;)

Not the kind of thing I'd google at work though.

Willeke

I have no computer access at work, (I can ask and will get the use of one for a few minutes but will not do any ask/answer site there.)

phoog

22:29

@GayotFow "it has to do with something else only tangentially related": what, may I ask, is that?

Gayot Fow

22:49

@phoog T4's who switched to durable relationships in the UK, but with non-British sponsors

The Factory Floor

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