The Classroom

thesecretmaster

12:50 AM

First low quality post review :(

Gypsy Spellweaver

That's one of the two queues that I can't get to yet.

thesecretmaster

It was a sorta link only answer, very borderline. It was "Look up this book".

Obsolescence/link death wouldn't be an issue then, but the issue would be challenges getting the book. I concluded that it wouldn't be useful to someone reaching the question through google and suggested that the answerer add a summary to their answer.

Ben I.

3:19 AM

I think the explosion of activity today was because of Ellen Spertus

Gypsy Spellweaver

O_o

Is that one of your invitees?

Ben I.

No idea where she came from, but she posted on the marketing thread in meta about where she posted about us to

Gypsy Spellweaver

At least we can presume she's an instructor - if profiles are to be trusted.

Seems like she's got good extra-curricular contacts as well, or should.

1

Q: Problematic student at a very high level

I have a student who is at a very high level, and yet causes difficulties. How can this be dealt with? The difficulties arise from the fact that the student is at such a high level. The subjects in the curriculum bore said student, and as a result, he doesn't cooperate when it comes to labs or p...

Guess I was out-voted

Hope it gets edited and reopened.

Ben I.

I'm not sure. I voted to close, but I was very on the fence about that question

My biggest problem with it was I felt it was too open, not that it was off-topic.

I'm glad that you opened that meta discussion, though

That question deserves a conversation. I think there's a lot of intrinsic value in the question, but that it needs some tweaks

Gypsy Spellweaver

I think we may see more "open ended" questions than most sites. Sometimes dealing with people just isn't "matter of fact."

Ben I.

3:36 AM

I really did vacillate back and forth on whether to close that question, and I'm not at all convinced that I made the right move

If @ItamarGreen fixes just a couple of things, I would vote to reopen it in a heartbeat!

Gypsy Spellweaver

Let's see if it gets edited. Then we can take it from there.

I'd hate to see us expecting people to say "This is for my CS class" just to pass the bar, though.

I think that because of all the chat in here, and other questions/answers posted, that he assumed we knew where he was coming from.

That don't help the question stand on it's own though, and questions should stand on their own, absent any context other than that provided in the post itself.

Same as not accepting link-only answers. The answer needs to stand on its own as well.

Ben I.

I agree with everything you just said

Gypsy Spellweaver

We grow. We learn. We grow.

Rinse. Repeat.

Ben I.

For now, I'm gonna grow horizontal. By going to bed :D

Have a great night, Gypsy

Gypsy Spellweaver

3:55 AM

nn

Itamar Green

4:08 AM

My apologies, I forgot to add context x.x. Added age level for my question. I am very happy for the answers and feedback on the question. Even closed questions are a bit beneficial in beta, however. That is because it makes the scope of the site more specific

@GypsySpellweaver you are perfectly right in what you said.

Gypsy Spellweaver

@ItamarGreen welcome back

@ItamarGreen Would you care to add in some details about the subject. Is it intro programming, adv. programming, or computer design, etc. Grade level is helpful too. Thanks.

The age range helps with how to deal with them some. Other users seemed to be more concerned that it wasn't related to CS education specifically. It is an excellent question for starting a discussion though :D

Gypsy Spellweaver

4:33 AM

@ItamarGreen May I edit in a few words to your question?

Itamar Green

@GypsySpellweaver Of course

So pleased to keep my 15 day streak, and realizing that there can't be a larger streak yet

Gypsy Spellweaver

4:48 AM

@ItamarGreen Check it now, and see if that works for you.

Peter

@GypsySpellweaver Just approved your edits. Great work.

@ItamarGreen What is the language (or languages) in question here?

Itamar Green

@GypsySpellweaver yes, it really clears what I mean.

Java

Edited to include (not as tag)

It isn't a question about java, so I feel there is no need for a tag

Gypsy Spellweaver

I think this helps others as well. We should hope to see many questions coming from educators who don't have English as the first, or primary language, and some nuances may be missed by them.

It's not about Java, but that can still help find anwsers.

Itamar Green

I see,

Peter

Exactly, a Java student going more low-level with something like C could be up for an additional challenge

Itamar Green

4:50 AM

Good point. But I rather avoid over-tagging.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Knowing that Java is used others can give you Java specific ideas

Peter

Alternatively, moving from Java to a functional language would also provide a great challenge

Gypsy Spellweaver

Few tags, more details in the question itself

Itamar Green

Oh. @Peter, that is a very good idea.

Peter

Thanks - I'll edit my post to add it back in...if I can...

Gypsy Spellweaver

4:51 AM

Or, how to convert a functional program example into Java :D Learn more java that way too

Itamar Green

Wow. You know, I am actually pleased that my question got put on hold. It allowed this discussion.

@GypsySpellweaver as you pointed out

Gypsy Spellweaver

Growing this site won't be easy, but it sure can be fun :D

Peter

Exactly. This is the value of beta.

Itamar Green

Oh my. 474 users

over 100 in I think less than 2 days. Unbelievable.

Peter

Almost 200 in the past 3 days or so

Just looked. We crossed 300 about 72 hours ago

Gypsy Spellweaver

4:55 AM

Great marketing effort by a few dedicated users

Itamar Green

wow

Peter

I also the quality of a question, when in doubt, can be determined by the quality of answers

Itamar Green

that IS incredible.

Peter

think*

Itamar Green

now we just have to sit and wait (and ask and answer and market and all that fun ;)) until Robert and the others give us more news.

Gypsy Spellweaver

4:57 AM

@Peter I wish I could get my fingers to go as fast as my thoughts

Itamar Green

@GypsySpellweaver +1 so much.

Peter

We saw the benefit...we got a pro tem mod thread without any further doubts expressed

Great trend the past week

Itamar Green

Agreed.

regarding this:

2

A: Teaching loop invariant choice

Track down a copy of David Gries' book "The Science of Programming". He has many suggestions for developing loop invariants.

Peter

Needs more specificity

Itamar Green

SO standards would have this deleted (i.e. recommend deletion)

but I feel that's premature here

Peter

5:01 AM

"Go find a book" is not acceptable

Itamar Green

Precisely,

Peter

Agreed. In beta stage, it's a teachable moment.

Itamar Green

not sure I understand what you mean by that.

Peter

As in, deleting it removes the lesson. By keeping it with its comments, we can learn from it as can readers of the thread.

Itamar Green

Oh. I see. I fear that new users might not understand the need for editing such a answer.

so do I say "looks ok"? because it doesn't

Peter

5:07 AM

I added a comment then said that

Itamar Green

I saw... Well. We'll wait and see,

Gypsy Spellweaver

Wow, just broke 500. Now I can see the LQP and Edit queues.

Peter

Awesome

Itamar Green

they're empty o.o, which is expected.

either we have very good high rep users (which we do), or not enough posts needing review.

Peter

I think both.

We have people actively assessing the quality of the site

We also haven't been hit by an overflow of questions that would create a huge backlog

Gypsy Spellweaver

5:14 AM

Eventually tag clean up will be an interesting endeavor as well. For now we can try to "guide" how they grow, but it won't always be so easy.

Peter

Agreed

Gypsy Spellweaver

The queues shouldn't ever get backlogged. That's part of the reason that graduation is driven, in part, by the high-rep user count.

As long as the community cares enough to maintain it, the site will do well.

Peter

Yep

Itamar Green

True

Gypsy Spellweaver

Well, now I done it. Self-nominated. ~!~

Itamar Green

5:26 AM

Congrats!

@GypsySpellweaver regarding your comment to my comment on your nomination (call stack is confused now XD):

I wish there were more people like you, not only on this site, but generally. People who see what "doctor strange" has to teach: sometimes "it's not about you" (and that applies to everyone).

(I feel it doesn't exactly belong in a comment, as it is very chatty)

Gypsy Spellweaver

Good, then you can get some practice with flags. Flag it as chatty :>

Itamar Green

XD

Can one flag himself?

Gypsy Spellweaver

Probably not. Then again, meta is supposed to be "chatty"

Itamar Green

interesting point.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Nope, can't flag or up vote own comments. Just delete or edit, and edit only lasts ~5 minutes

Itamar Green

5:36 AM

makes sense.

I forgot to add my active times in my nomination. Fixed now.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Only time I'm inactive is when I go horizontal. :)

Itamar Green

likewise

we just went up 10 users since I last checked

Gypsy Spellweaver

Computer is always on, and if I'm not at it my mobile chirps when I get pinged.

Peter

I pretty much work all day on my computer, so I am available quite often

Itamar Green

in just 47 minutes

Peter

5:42 AM

Crazy!

I'm off for the night. Cheers!

Gypsy Spellweaver

cheers

Itamar Green

Night!

Itamar Green

7:51 AM

according to a51, we're 15% finished with beta. how is that percentage calculated? days?

Gypsy Spellweaver

@ItamarGreen For more details I'd try for things like: what it is that you are teaching that he thinks he don't need to learn, how you're sure he has mastered that material, why he was able to mastered it before the class, what he does when he does not do the work

Itamar Green

Oh. Well the answers to that are not very pleasant. (I'll add them to the question soon):

1. Mostly, the entire curriculum
2. I can't really know, but when he does talk about the material, he doesn't make mistakes in the theoretical material.
3. Both parents in the field. That is also part of the reason he doesn't cooperate: "He knows how real programmers work in the real world"
4. mostly walks around the classroom,

Wow. user count just jumped about +10 in less than 10 minutes.

Gypsy Spellweaver

@ItamarGreen Probably, mostly user base. We have 24 "avid" users, site should have 5>3000, 10>2000, and 150>200. We have 24>200, none of the rest. 24÷165 = 14.5%

Itamar Green

165? where's that from?

Gypsy Spellweaver

150 > 200 + 10 > 2000 + 5 > 3000. They will, of course, also look at other metrics before graduation, but for a running percent, that's probably most of the score.

@ItamarGreen relative to #3, I got news for him, "real programmers in the real world do a whole lot of simple work. The elegant solutions are usually already written or out of scope for the time frames imposed by "work". And if you do have a wonderful new approach, the supervisor doesn't want to hear about it, he just want's you to "do what you were hired to do."

Itamar Green

8:12 AM

And we get to the central problem. He doesn't stop arguing. The question is technically unsolvable for the specific student, but it is good for future cases. Which is why I asked it.

Ohhhh I can't wait until we go public. Not-so-silent anticipation

Gypsy Spellweaver

If he can't prove, on paper, that he knows the material, and doesn't do the required work, he won't get the grade. Rule do have a purpose. Flip side is not to use ultimatums, but challenges, if possible. Last resort is to either contact parents, or get him removed from class as "disruptive" to the working students.

If he can be convinced to respond to challenges, you could pull some code from [CodeReview](codereview.stackexchange.com), without telling him where it came from, and have him improve it. You will have access to the reviews so you won't have to find the improvements yourself.

Itamar Green

That last suggestion is very useful. Especially for this student, because he can't resist a challenge, if posed in the right way.

Gypsy Spellweaver

:D >:>

evil grin

You get him under control, you expand his skills (in spite of himself), and you don't have to do that much extra work. It also will prove whether or not he really does know it, or can just talk it.

Itamar Green

Ugh, a stream of users means a stream of questions that I can't always answer, so I feel so useless at the moment (except for comments, meta activity, chat, reviews and questions :-\

@GypsySpellweaver true.

Gypsy Spellweaver

That's the situation I'm in most of the time now. I do review the questions to see where I might have some input, but limited at best.

It's not your job to answer every question. Just the ones that you have answers, or useful input, for.

Henry WH Hack v2.0

8:33 AM

Greetings All! :)

Sean Houlihane

8:55 AM

@ItamarGreen The site actually benefits from you not answering too many questions. You have enough rep to be useful, the site needs more users getting to 200 rep. Focus on enabling others to progress (and you'll still get internet points as you go along).

@ItamarGreen - suggestion for your student problem - maybe a club/project where you can allow him to use class time to work on the project. Reward his ability with some flexibliity in your approach.

Gypsy Spellweaver

9:16 AM

What about working through Project Euler?

Itamar Green

I wasn't expecting a question like this to come up so quickly. Blatantly off topic.

0

Q: Teach children living in the online society

I have a 4 month old daughter, and I'd love to help her learn, understand and enjoy the online world without her taking life-long scars or me frightening her. Kids normally learn a lot of things by trial and error. They fall, they hurt themselves, next time they'll be more careful. They eat thei...

online-world young-age social-media internet

Gypsy Spellweaver

"Shopping" question, and not even referable to software rec

Itamar Green

Should such a question be downvoted in private beta? or simply closed?

in SO it would be closed in a heart beat, but I don't think that's the model I like. the specific user has been active in a good way in the past, so...

Gypsy Spellweaver

@ItamarGreen And YES is should be closed. Even in Private Beta, especially so, as we're defining scope still

Itamar Green

on one hand, off topic questions are good to better define our scope. And yet, they lower the quality of the site (just by a small amount)

@GypsySpellweaver but should it be downvoted? that's what I'm unsure about, because we're in beta.

Sean Houlihane

9:29 AM

Its currently OT, so should be closed. I don't see how it can be edited to be in-scope. I was thinking academia.stackexchange.com might take it, but they're HE focused. Parenting maybe.

Itamar Green

Agreed

Gypsy Spellweaver

@SeanHoulihane Hadn't thought of Parenting. good call.

Itamar Green

well I think it doesn't exactly fit there... because he removed that detail. Even though we know it's related, the question as it is now wouldn't precisely fit there (I think, never having read that site's help center)

@GypsySpellweaver Real questions have answers. I love that link. applauding

Gypsy Spellweaver

9:44 AM

And, if it goes any farther, this is where a mod locks the question for a while. To let things "cool" down. It's also where one cleans up all the comments and lets it start fresh, or nearly so.

Itamar Green

I see.

Gypsy Spellweaver

It's also where I go silent, because now he just wants to "make his point"

Thanks @Aurora0001

Glad you could join us when you did

Aurora0001

Yeah, convenient timing

Gypsy Spellweaver

Hope you didn't get triggered somehow. Looks like the firestorm stopped on its own.

Henry WH Hack v2.0

10:32 AM

Top 20 Tips That Will Keep You Safe In The Modern World

►

"USB memory stick?"

Is there any such thing?

Gypsy Spellweaver

AKA thumb drive

As one common option

Henry WH Hack v2.0

@GypsySpellweaver RAM sticks that works via USB.

thesecretmaster

That couldn't happen

It'd have to be storage

Aurora0001

Memory doesn't necessarily imply RAM

Henry WH Hack v2.0

It's a joke

Upgrade your Memory with a USB RAM device.

@Aurora0001 Well memory is kind of like storage.

Gypsy Spellweaver

10:37 AM

@HenryWHHackv2.0 That came out with Vista.

Ben I.

Finally caught up this morning - what a lot of activity!

Gypsy Spellweaver

Well If you're up. maybe I should sleep

thesecretmaster

Good morning

CS Educators Meta

1

Q: Site scope refinement

We have a question that has attracted a few close votes. I don't know all the voters' reasons for that, but one comment suggests one possibility: Nothing about your question seems specific to CS. Could you rewrite it? I think we have a chance here to choose where we draw the line. The subje...

discussion site-scope

1

Q: Broad tags make it difficult to write a good wiki

We currently have 3 pages of tags. Some of them have a wiki, some don't. However, some are (as I find it) difficult to describe well in a tag wiki. Examples are security (It is not so clear what kind of security it is about) or ide (what aspect of an ide is asked about). How could we deal with ...

discussion tags

3

Q: Site scope refinement #2

I more or less accept this question is off topic: Teach children living in the online society In the question's defense: I asked about websites, programs and methods. I certainly expect the CS teacher in my kid's school to teach her internet safety. I think it is way more important than teachi...

discussion site-scope

thesecretmaster

Well hello

Ben I.

10:42 AM

Hello indeed!

Gypsy Spellweaver

See all the fun you missed overnight?

Itamar Green

avidUsers++

And 499 users. Yippee

Gypsy Spellweaver

Been waiting, and F5-ing looking for that 500 :}

Itamar Green

Likewise

Gypsy Spellweaver

10:59 AM

^\o/^ 500 users !

Itamar Green

11:22 AM

5% avid

Gypsy Spellweaver

That, unfortunately isn't growing as fast as the user count :(

Of course, almost 2 dozen of the "users" are SE CMs

Itamar Green

true.

but we're getting there.

Gypsy Spellweaver

I think it's going to work.

The nominations, to me, is a good sign that they think it will as well.

Itamar Green

Agreed

thesecretmaster

I think we're going to do well as a community. We all came together and worked hard to get things going again after we were warned about possibly not making it

Gypsy Spellweaver

11:27 AM

Yup.

Itamar Green

Yep. btw, it looks like Ben, Peter and you thesecretmaster will be pro tem moderators, judging by current votes. It's a sign that we can get to consensus about things, which is always good.

Gypsy Spellweaver

yee haw

Aurora0001

The votes are not the only factor that's considered (it's not really an election, unlike when you graduate)

Gypsy Spellweaver

Think a consensus showed up on the safety issue too.

Itamar Green

@Aurora0001 I though so, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for clearing that up.

Aurora0001

11:30 AM

Yeah, the process they go through isn't public, but I imagine every viable candidate will be discussed and considered

And also, ideally a good timezone coverage is a good thing

Gypsy Spellweaver

I think it's a good pool, and no matter which ones they eventually select the site will be in good hands.

Aurora0001

Well, I can say that all of the candidates would be great moderators from what I've seen

Gypsy Spellweaver

Having a mod chat room to fall back to as they learn will help too.

Itamar Green

@GypsySpellweaver agreed

Ben I.

12:03 PM

I can't believe we hit 500 users!

I won't be active in chat today because I'm on a field trip with seniors to an amusement park, but I will be checking the queues and the main site.

Gypsy Spellweaver

@BenI. Stick with the kids, enjoy the day, you've earned just as much as they have. We'll keep things under control for you.

Itamar Green

1:12 PM

user count keeps climbing. And from the looks of it, very high level experts (a bit of digging if they provide links in their profiles)

CS Educators Meta

2:48 PM

0

Q: Questions that don't have one answer

This isn't really specific to this board, but Stack Exchange in general. Are all questions expected to eventually have one response tagged as the answer? What about cases where there are several responses that are all good, and all answer the question? I'm thinking about a question I asked a co...

discussion

Peter

3:38 PM

I see that I missed quite a bit overnight

I am inspired by the passionate views getting expressed

A sign that people care and are invested

Itamar Green

4:17 PM

true

I'm unsure how to react to this:

0

Q: Suggestions for encouraging good Coding Practices?

From an instructor perspective(MS or HS), Is there a method, or a set of guidelines, for grading early coders' projects that could enhance good coding practices as the students advance further into computer science? Are any "online practice sites" or "auto-graders" worthy enough to look at for d...

grading guidlines auto-graders

It borders on being a duplicate, but only by its title.

Peter

I just commented

Itamar Green

Though the given answer is good, I would still prefer it the asker edited their question.

wow. I think we got more than 75 users in 1 day.

Peter

Agreed - it needs revision

Itamar Green

4:35 PM

I am racking my brains for things I could ask, but I can't get anything.

Gypsy Spellweaver

5:57 PM

@ItamarGreen still there?

thesecretmaster

6:31 PM

I'd just like to point out that I'm very impressed by the users who've only answered while asking 1 or 2 questions.

Itamar Green

Yes

@GypsySpellweaver yes, I'm still here. Why?

Gypsy Spellweaver

5.5 hr old new room invite

Itamar Green

6:51 PM

oh. you meant there. Well, I click it accidentally.

Ben I.

8:24 PM

What an awesome day!!

Of course, we had a big burst on days 1 and 2, and most didn't stay. I have a feeling that, since these folks appear to actually be CS educators, a higher portion might stick. Still, we shouldn't count our chickens before they hatch...

Peter

Definitely a huge uptick in total users

thesecretmaster

8:45 PM

But many just here to view

Gypsy Spellweaver

9:07 PM

63 new users in 10 hours. It will be nice to be public, then lookers won't be "users" on the list.

Ben I.

9:47 PM

What do you folks think about adding a "best-case" tag (as proposed in the review queie)

My first instinct is that it doesn't add anything, since that's presumably what we're all after in all of the questions and responses

But perhaps someone else sees some potential benefit that I don't

Gypsy Spellweaver

best-case does seem redundant, sort of like cs-classes. We hope every answer is best case, if not then we hope for improvement. best-practices makes sense, even if possibly too broad.

Ben I.

Sorry, I meant best-practices

Gypsy Spellweaver

10:04 PM

For that, I'm split. It is a valid topic for the classroom, but I fear it might be too subjective for questions here. We don't need to create tags ahead of time. When asking a question the tags don't have to exist, but can be created on the fly. The challenge is going to be pruning the new ones, re-tagging questions with better tags, and combining tags where needed.

Ben I.

Well, this one is appearing on the edit queue specifically

Gypsy Spellweaver

Not sure how the system works for tags, but I think if it's being edited, then it's probably attached to a question. Better to examine the question, see if it is a good choice, and either let the tag edit pass, or remove it from the question.

Quick look, it's on 3 questions. Two seem like it's probably a good choice, the DB question, maybe not.

If the tag edit looks good, I'd be inclined to accept it. If the tag's gonna be there, usage guidelines will be helpful

Ben I.

10:26 PM

I just created a meta-question about the block color question

If someone could go and to the original question and uptick the notice about the meta question (so it appears without having to click "more comments") I'd appreciate that

Then we can all fight it out in meta instead of extended comments :)

Thanks, mystery upticker! (I'm guessing @GypsySpellweaver?) It worked :)

Peter

10:44 PM

88

A: Should software for 8 to 14 year olds be colourful and "childish"?

What you have described here is not 'childishly' colourful - The colours represent different information: the colour has meaning beyond decoration. Scratch colour codes its code blocks according to what type of element they are (variable, logic operations, flow operations, etc) in a similar way ...

Just added my two-cents to the meta conversation

thesecretmaster

11:48 PM

Also added my 2 cents. It's not a teaching question, it's a question about designing tools for teachers.

Henry WH Hack v2.0

2 cents?

thesecretmaster

My two cents

"My two cents" ("my 2¢") and its longer version "put my two cents in" is an American idiomatic expression, taken from the original English idiom "to put in my two penny worth" or "my two-cents." It is used to preface the tentative statement of one’s opinion. By deprecating the opinion to follow—suggesting its value is only two cents, a very small amount—the user of the phrase, showing politeness and humility, hopes to lessen the impact of a possibly contentious statement. However, it is also sometimes used ironically when expressing a strongly held opinion. The phrase is also sometimes used out...

Henry WH Hack v2.0

@thesecretmaster ok

Do you really mean your two close/reopen votes?

No wait

You can't :p

Gypsy Spellweaver

When I offer my 2¢ I usually get some change. :/

Henry WH Hack v2.0

@GypsySpellweaver Greetings! :)

CS Educators Meta

11:53 PM

1

Q: Question about IDE features

After looking at the comments and the votes, I believe that this question warrants a discussion. As I don't want to preference my own thinking above others in the community, I'll put my thoughts in an answer below.

discussion site-scope closed-questions

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Finally!

I got 1,000 reps on Area51.SE! :)

Gypsy Spellweaver

@HenryWHHackv2.0 \o/

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Thank You! :)

area51.stackexchange.com/privileges/established-user

area51.stackexchange.com/privileges/edit

Those are my new Area51.SE privileges.

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