Politics of the day - 2017-03-30

M.A.R.

15:03

theintercept.com/2017/03/29/…

I'm gonna link that whenever someone says Islam is the cause of all terrorism

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. Indeed, that statement is completely historically inaccurate.

see, e.g., Ireland

It's hard to claim that Islam is not a cause, or an inspiration/excuse for, an appreciable fraction of modern terrorism, however.

IMO, anyways.

orthocresol

15:27

i think that's a fact

hBy2Py

A lot of people definitely overreact/overgeneralize from that perception/observation, though.

orthocresol

the religion isnt the problem, its the people misinterpreting it

M.A.R.

No, it's not even people misinterpreting it

orthocresol

however, even if you take away islam, people will still find something to misinterpret

or distort

or whatever word you want to use

M.A.R.

People practicing religions is rare these days

Read what I linked

It links to an MI5 report that quotes the reasons in the study not being religion at all

I'm a thug. I wanna rationalize my heinous crimes and I link it to some religion or sect

But the real reason is I just wanna kill and stab

hBy2Py

15:31

Hm - so, are you arguing that Islam is just the 'lowest hanging fruit of excuses for violence' at this point in time?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py The committers of terrorism are usually either born in the West, or raised in the West. They're also commonly changing religion, meeting prostitutes, and not practicing the religious thingies they should be practicing

> Over the past decade since the MI5 research was first leaked, more and more studies have challenged the conventional and lazy wisdom on the role of religion in the radicalization process. In recent years, I have spoken with a range of leading experts — anthropologist Scott Atran, psychiatrist Marc Sageman, historian Lydia Wilson — all of whom have interviewed “jihadi” terrorists, from the battlefields of Iraq to the prison cells of the United States, and all of whom agree that faith, Islamic or otherwise, is not the key driver of this latest wave of global terror.

hBy2Py

"Terrorism is really political violence, first and foremost"

Absolutely

So, what's the political motive of things like this?

M.A.R.

But having a backlash at Islam or whatever isn't Western is typical xenophobic remarks used by extremists to legislate silly rules

hBy2Py

Westminster, trucks in Nice and Berlin, etc.

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py I think these people tend to think they need to prove themselves in an imaginary group of jihadists

hBy2Py

15:37

Let's go to another room

M.A.R.

When Mr. Arab Name explodes himself up in public, he's probably picturing himself spoken of as a legend in the darker corners of wherever he's imagining his friends gather

hBy2Py

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M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Edit this

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hBy2Py

15:38

@M.A.R. To remove the link?

M.A.R.

So, where were we

Mhm

hBy2Py

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M.A.R.

All in all, I, as a guy from the East who can access internet, see what Westerners think and sigh

Mutually, guys from the East have this suspicion when treating people from the West

hBy2Py

Do you see radicals in Africa and the Middle East as also just using Islam as an excuse for violence and self-inflation?

Same as people doing it in the West?

@M.A.R. Long history of not-so-friendly interactions, for sure.

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Yes. TBH, the really radical Islamic people, who want to preach Islam every chance they get, don't like Westerners at all but never commit anything as close to terrorism

In fact, quite the contrary.

hBy2Py

15:44

The difficulty for the West, as I see it, is telling the types of fervor apart

M.A.R.

A very common feeling people that do value Islam get is that "Life isn't worth all the wars and stuff, and you should just detach yourself from the world"

Not nihilism, but apathy

hBy2Py

Huh, almost more Buddhist, then?

M.A.R.

Yes, very close

hBy2Py

As opposed to someone seeking power, influence over the world ... for whom Islam (or some facade/mockery thereof) is a convenient tool?

M.A.R.

We have a lot of poems expressing the above

@hBy2Py Yep. They don't like power

hBy2Py

15:47

Huh.

M.A.R.

They even sometimes counsel/oppose those who're after power

"You're going after materialistic life, and ignoring the much longer afterlife that comes afterwards"

hBy2Py

Well, one challenge from the Western perspective is that it's hard for the layperson here, in pretty substantial ignorance of the subtleties, to tell the difference between a genuine, impassioned faith that leads to introspection, reflection, etc.... and one that's just exploiting the name of Islam for violent ends.

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Exactly, and for a regular Middle Easterner it's hard to tell whether Americans are racist jerks who don't care about browns in the slightest, or people trying to help defeat IS

While all of this would be fixed if the Westerner met the Easterner

Lack of communication, and the fact that I'm made to assume things about you, is why there's so much hostility around

And Trump is not helping the situation by bombing civilians

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. Huh, so there are plenty of "good guys" on both sides; just each side can't be sure who they're dealing with on the other side, in any particular instance?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py There are more than two sides here. o.o

hBy2Py

15:51

@M.A.R. Heh, good point

M.A.R.

One side is you, AKA bystander Westerner

One side is me, AKA bystander Easterner

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. I've wondered all along if Obama set him up for that, frankly. You mean the attack in Yemen, right?

M.A.R.

One side is the poor Iraqis now being bombed by Americans and tortured by IS

AKA victims

hBy2Py

<nod>, so many people caught in the middle.

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Yeah, and apparently he also bombed Iraqi civilians recently

One side is IS

One side is US politicians, who have never been so good at departing from their own people

The IS side is all jerks

The bystander sides are mixed, just like any other society

There are jerks, and there are a damn lot of good people

The victims, unlike what some US politicians like to think, don't like IS, and tend to hate Americans too

hBy2Py

15:54

What could the West (U.S. especially) do to start to heal the breach of historical distrust?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Make Trump resign?

hBy2Py

???

Obama was better?

M.A.R.

In all seriousness, I don't think it can be fixed

Not this easily

Would need a couple of decades, at least

And people should change -- The good and bad news is change is constant

People should start accepting cultural differences, and not become defensive against anything that doesn't sound native

And well, considering the current politicians on both Iranian and American sides, I don't think this will happen

@hBy2Py He was indeed better, but well, how much difference can a single POTUS make? I was joking by the Trump-should-resign message

hBy2Py

The travel restrictions have upset a lot of people, I would guess.

M.A.R.

Currently, politicians on every side except the IS side -- Which doesn't have visible politicians anyway -- are just waiting for some news to bandwagon on

"See? Told you Americans/Islamists/Muslims/Brits/French/etc etc etc are jerks"

"Islam, religion of peace"

And on and on and on

hBy2Py

16:00

Deepening the us vs them narrative?

M.A.R.

Yep, closing in, building walls

Right now, it's one of the most dangerous periods

My impression of the people in the US, if the media and what I've read adequately point out the social problems, is that people have now grown tired of not being jerks

So Trump's era is a chance to act like jerks for a little while

Let the figurative belt loose

hBy2Py

The people in middle America that voted so strongly for Trump are tired of DC and other coastal decision-makers moving policy in a way that enhances the aggregate US economy, but that leaves them in the dirt.

Foreign trade absolutely enhances the US economy overall

M.A.R.

If you pass this without wrecking havoc in some country and worsening it than what it already has become, I guess they will return to anti-racism in a little while

hBy2Py

But there's a huge fraction of the population that'd basically be starving to death, if not for welfare programs.

And it's miserable

There's a horrific drug abuse epidemic in rural areas -- people have nothing to do and no hope for a better life, so they do what they can to brighten things up for a while.

Our education system badly mis-serves students

The underlying philosophy is hosed

I'm confident that any foreign policy fallout of Trump is incidental, not intentional, for most of his supporters

"Foreigners take our jobs and want to blow us up"

I suspect is a common, and badly and problematically oversimplified, perspective on things.

But it is what it is.

M.A.R.

oh well

grass is not greener on your side

hBy2Py

16:09

Everywhere's got problems

Some are more violent/deathy than others.

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