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Martin - マーチン

05:29

@Feeds I really don't want to touch this... it'll be gone in a week anyway

10 hours later…

hBy2Py

15:21

cleanup (in)action @Mart → 1 message moved to trash -- Matter, answer/ fill in the blanks with the given choice -- No action taken; will be roomba-ed.

Martin - マーチン

16:00

A: Temporary Suspension of the Homework Close Reason (concluded)

In conclusion ... Although Wildcat basically already said it, I would like to add a few thoughts and numbers. I have to admit that this illdesigned, untargeted "experiment" did not turn out the way I would liked it to have. Some of my initial thoughts I have already shared with you: Let's talk a...

^^ cc @orthocresol

orthocresol

:'(

I don't know, I get the feeling that there are just a handful of (over?)zealous users who want to close everything...

Because "the site's integrity" blahblahblah

If it angers you so much, just downvote and move on... there are probably even scripts that hide downvoted questions so that you don't need to hurt your eyes on them...

hBy2Py

I do think @Mart is right (if I've understood him correctly, anyways), that "VTC HW" has become too much a proxy for "I don't like this question" and/or "I don't want to take the time to answer this question"

Yep

Ignore and/or downvote are indeed the proper responses to those.

Martin - マーチン

yes, quite

It's homework, do it yourself! That's basically the essence.

hBy2Py

In any event.. I guess it just now gets left to lie for a few months, at least?

orthocresol

Yes.

Martin - マーチン

16:14

well, we had the HW policy for about 5 years... so why not

i'm off to bed

hBy2Py

<tips hat> g'night

orthocresol

oh well,

can't say I'm not frustrated

hBy2Py

I'm fuzzy on how the data indicated the community wants status quo.

And for how community buy-in for anything is ascertained, actually

orthocresol

Can't speak for Martin, but I'd suppose upvotes on posts.

My suspicion is that it's only a vocal minority who want the close reason, though. The rest just follow.

I don't know whether it made sense to simply overrule the community. We have never really done that at all, because we aren't really here to make decisions, we're here to execute community decisions. But if there was ever a time to do it, it would have been now.

orthocresol

16:49

But yeah, come to think of it, we never tried to do an explicit poll. Well, I guess that is something we can learn from that.

For every meta proposal, make an explicit poll, an explicit time for which the poll lasts, and an explicit warning that the post with most upvotes will become policy. There's far too much inaction on meta.

hBy2Py

17:15

@orthocresol At least, I think something like this should be done for specific, significant changes to site policy, like axing the HW VTC reason.

orthocresol

Q: Are poll-style questions ever acceptable on meta sites?

On proper Stack Exchange sites, poll-style questions are not considered acceptable. They typically would serve only to measure users' opinions in aggregate, which is not constructive. However, meta sites are a bit different. Determining users' opinions is one of their purposes. The scores of pos...

@hBy2Py Yeah. I mean, it's basically a referendum, right? Like brexit, it's been debated to death, and people are sick of hearing arguments for and against. We just need a yes/no question for people to tick.

If parliaments can pass bills by simple voting, I don't see why per-site metas can't, after all the discussion has been had. I really don't agree with that meta.se post.

hBy2Py

@orthocresol I agree, to disagree with the Meta.SE post

It's not a great idea to lead with a poll-type question

But if an issue is dragging out, the options are fairly constrained, and resolution is not forthcoming, I think a poll is probably the least worst choice.

orthocresol

Yeah, spot on.

hBy2Py

Further: If polls are so bad, why are moderators elected via a poll?

If the meta process is so great for making decisions, why not just use the regular meta process to identify mods?

orthocresol

Didn't think of that, and I agree

hBy2Py

17:23

I had some poll answers knocked down by Mr. Cartaino in the Technical Communication Area51 site.

Well of COURSE I didn't disagree!

From that Meta.SE post, by Mr. Cartaino: "I've always broadened these these rigid, pre-posted conversations to a more open format, and I've never had an author or the community disagree with the reasoning."

I have a couple hundred rep on A51

He's a diamond mod, and member of the SO team!

orthocresol

I find that that's a trap that a lot of internet communities can fall into. You become quite sure that everything you're doing is always correct.

hBy2Py

TBH I've thought more than once that @Mart was getting that way about the HW close reason.

But the discussion has done at least that much: I've stared at it enough that I've come to agree with him, and his philosophy on it.

Even if I don't completely understand it yet... :-P

orthocresol

Actually, I think he was more cautious (prudent, probably). If I was the only mod here, I would have simply gotten rid of it: "enough discussion, I've heard all your arguments, and I think I'm correct."

That might well have stirred up some s***storm.

hBy2Py

<nod>, reinstating it was the right thing to do, given the clear resistance to abandoning it.

HW VTC is a proxy for a particular mindset/philosophy of the site

orthocresol

So, I'm glad I'm not the only one here. :)

Yeah.

hBy2Py

17:30

Its (arguable mis-)use is a symptom, not the problem itself.

The need is to somehow redirect the mindset

Baby steps

orthocresol

In truth we're (mostly) very passive.

@hBy2Py I wonder how, though.

hBy2Py

<nod>

orthocresol

Where can I get one of those?

hBy2Py

@orthocresol Enh, talk to @Mart. There's probably an outlet mall for 'em within a few km of him.

orthocresol

Haha :D

hBy2Py

17:54

@ortho You need to rollback and lock here, unfortunately: chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/77105/…

orthocresol

Thanks

hBy2Py

Let things cool down for a day, then try to re-engage OP, probably

orthocresol

Locking means it can't be reopened, though. So...

hBy2Py

Ahhh

Ok, VTRO'd

Hopefully OP won't have another tantrum

orthocresol

18:28

@hBy2Py well, I tried to combine the ideas of polling + discussion. On second thoughts, I wouldn't really want to have an explicit poll, as it's messy and necessitates a new meta post (and then we need one for every proposal).

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