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12:19 AM
@sammygerbil are you there?
 
@harambe yes
 
@sammygerbil imgur.com/a/OrJWDpp
Need help with Q13 and 15
 
@harambe ok. Q13. What is the difficulty?
 
In Q13, what does the first line mean about the photon of balmer then followed by lyman
 
@harambe Lyman Series starts from ground state (n=1), Balmer Series starts from 1st excited state (n=2). So after emission in Balmer Series the atom is left in state n=2 and must emit another photon to reach ground state. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_spectral_series
 
12:25 AM
Can't the electron jump to n=3.. It also falls in balmer series
Also isn't n=2 already in lyman series
 
The atom gets excited somehow, say to state n=10. There is no way of knowing which state it will decay to - this is all determined at random. If it decays to state n=2 then the emission line is in the Balmer Series. It will be followed by another emission to reach n=1 ground state.
 
@sammygerbil okay. A doubt
 
yes?
 
When photon is emmited, that means it is decays from a higher state to lower state
 
12:30 AM
So the question is - there is jump of electron from a higher state to lower state hence electron is emmitted and this emmision has to fall in balmer so n=2?
 
@harambe I don't understand your question. Can you rephrase it?
If the atom is excited to any state above n=2 there is no reason why it has to decay to n=2 state.
eg If excited to n=10 there could be several emissions to n=7, 5, 3 then 2. Or it could miss out n=2 altogether. Or it could decay from n=10 to n=1 without stopping at any other levels.
There is a certain probability of each decay from state m to state n.
It is all decided at random, according to the probabilities of each route of decay.
Has that answered your question?
 
12:45 AM
@sammygerbil I have got the answer but still I can't understand something. Emmision means electron falls from a higher state to lower state
So in order to be in balmer series, the lower state has to be n=2
 
@harambe yes
 
Got it
@sammygerbil can you help with Q15
 
@harambe Total energy = KE + PE.
 
Okay
 
PE is -ve because electron is bound to atom.
 
12:48 AM
Yeah
 
According to Bohr's Theory, KE is twice the total energy. ie Total energy = - PE.
 
Yeah
@sammygerbil okay. I think I can proceed now on my own
 
(It is a convoluted question, I'm getting a little confused. It was discussed in this room a while ago, I shall try to find it.)
ok
1
A: How do I find the average kinetic energy and average potential energy of a hydrogen electron in the ground state?

Eric AngleOne method is to use/prove the virial theorem: for a potential of the form $V\left(r\right) \propto {r^p}$ (for the hydrogen atom, $p = -1$), $$ \left<T\right>_n = \frac{p}{2} \left<V\right>_n $$ for the $n$-th energy eigenstate. Use this, together with $$ E_n = \left<E\right>_n = \left<T\right>...

 
 
4 hours later…
4:50 AM
Somebody help: with these very easy question: Find number of significant digits in 0.0005 cm, 600cm ? I don't know how the specified units will change the number of significant digits
@Abcd it must be very easy for you please say
@sammygerbil can you help?
I am confused as leading 0 is never significant v/s when units are mentioned all are significant
 
@Jasmine It is 1 in both cases.
Leading and trailing zeros are ignored in almost all cases.
 
@sammygerbil so even if kg is mentioned it doesn't affect?
 
@Jasmine kg is a unit not a number. What exactly are you thinking of?
Provide an example.
 
I read somewhere when anything is written with specified units all are significant
I don't remember where
Probably it was wrong
 
@Jasmine Yes, probably. :)
The only exception is when there is a trailing decimal point, eg 600.0 cm.
This has 3 or possibly 4 significant digits.
When we write 600 without any indication of uncertainty this usually means the number has been rounded to the nearest hundred. But of course we cannot be sure it has not been rounded to the nearest ten or unit.
When we write 600.0 this implies it is accurate to the nearest unit or possibly tenth of a unit.
 
5:25 AM
@Jasmine I use this for remembering
Just express the number as hsgsv.sjja*10^x
Rest of the digits are significant
71661.02828000000000
7.166102828*10^(whatever)
 
6:04 AM
@sammygerbil 4 not 3
@Jasmine read the rules given in NCERT carefully. It's very easy stuff. Just read the NCERT rules!
 
@Abcd yes
 
@Jasmine fuel cell question in Chemistry room?
 
@Abcd what
 
@Jasmine see your last ping in chemistry room
@Jasmine calculate the standard voltage question
 
@AvnishKabaj I understand oh so you round of all numbers that way nice :)
 
6:09 AM
@JohnRennie good morning
Are you free after half an hour
 
6:22 AM
@harambe Yes, I'm around for a while this morning
 
6:43 AM
@JohnRennie hi
 
@harambe hi
 
Q15
By definition the potential energy is zero at infinity
 
That looks straightforward ...
 
But here it is defined to be zero at ground state
 
Where you take the zero of the PE is just a choice. The PE doesn't have to be zero at infinity we could choose it to be 27 or 365.25 at infinity without affecting the physics.
Only differences in PE are physically observable.
 
6:45 AM
@JohnRennie I plugged the values in kinetic energy of the system but the answers not matching
 
What units do they want the energy in? eV?
 
Yes
 
So if we take the PE to be zero at infinity the n=1 state has energy -13.6 eV and the n=2 state has energy -13.6/4 eV
 
Yes
 
So the n=2 state has an energy 3*13.6/4 eV higher that the n=1 state?
 
6:53 AM
Yes
 
Oh wait. they want the PE set to zero for n=1 not the total energy set to zero
 
Yeah so the energy should be equal to kinetic energy for n=1
@JohnRennie perhaps I need to find kinetic energy too and add it to the potential energy at n=2
 
The PE is always twice the KE, so the PE in the ground state is -27.2 eV
Hang on ...
If the PE is taken to be zero for the n=1 state that just adds 27.2 eV to all energies. Yes?
 
Yes
 
So the n=1 state changes from -13.6 eV to -13.6 + 27.2 = +13.6eV
 
7:03 AM
@JohnRennie Please ping when done with harambe
 
And therefore the n=2 state changes to -13.6/4 + 27.2 = +23.8 eV
@Abcd will do
 
@JohnRennie can you explain what you did. I got confused
It's the right answer btw
 
@harambe it's a confusing question ...
With the usual convention that PE=0 at infinity the total energy of the n=1 state is -13.6 eV. OK so far?
 
Yes
 
There's a convenient theorem called the virial theorem that tells us for bound states with a 1/r^2 for the PE and KE are related by PE = -2KE.
 
7:08 AM
Yep
 
So the PE of the n=1 state is -27.2 eV
(and the KE is +13.6)
 
Ok
 
Now the question says we want to take the PE to be zero for the n=1 state, and that means we have to add +27.2 eV to the PE. This makes the PE zero for the n=1 state and +27.2 eV at infinity.
All we are doing is adding a constant +27.2 eV to all PEs.
 
Got it
 
The total energy of the n=1 state is PE+KE so it's 0 + 13.6 = 13.6eV
And we already know that the total energy of the n=2 state is 3*13.6/4 higher than the n=1 state, so its energy has to be 13.6 + 3*13.6/4
 
7:13 AM
Yea
@JohnRennie got the answer
 
@harambe are we done? Can I move on to Abcd's question now?
 
Yes
 
@Abcd you there?
 
@JohnRennie hi
 
7:17 AM
@JohnRennie I understand screw gauge and its terms but dont understand the lab working of it.
 
You mean how you actually use the thing?
 
yes
 
You put the whatever it is you want to measure between the jaws and turn the screw until it stops. The you read the rough size off the shaft of the screw. Let me see if I can find a diagram ...
 
@Abcd if you find time, you can check edunova's practical video too. I think they have screw gauge too... I swear I saw it somewhere
 
@harambe ihave seen it already
my doubt is laboratory usage of the thing
 
7:22 AM
Okay
 
@Abcd is that diagram clear?
 
Sid
@Abcd You will need to go to the lab and use it, to know that.
 
@JohnRennie yes
@Sid JR is explaining... I will go to the lab in mid Jan after JEE mains.
 
@Abcd So the rough reading on the shaft tells you the size is 5.5mm plus a bit. Yes?
 
@JohnRennie No tell me how we start. Initially the Jaws are closed right?
 
7:24 AM
@Abcd where do we need to start from?
 
@JohnRennie Jaws are closed. Then we get a wire or anything... then what?
 
Turn the thimble anticlockwise and that opens the jaws. Open the jaws wide enough to put the wire (or whatever) between them, then turn the thimble clockwise to close the jaws again until they grip the wire.
So at this point the distance between the jaws is the same as the size of the wire. Yes?
 
@JohnRennie Yes, I dont get this step: then turn the thimble clockwise to close the jaws again until they grip the wire. I mean how it yields the measurement.
 
The screw gauge scale measures the distance between the jaws.
 
@JohnRennie please elaborate on that step.
 
7:30 AM
These two distances in red are the same:
Is it obvious why or do I need to go into this?
 
@JohnRennie Suppose initially the jaws were closed. So the process is equivalent to: Slowly and slowly making space for the object by turning the screw gauge circular scale?
 
Yes, though in practice you open the jaws wider than the object, then close them again to just grip the object.
 
OK, thats more intuitive.
@JohnRennie One question.
 
Yes ... ?
 
@JohnRennie this^
 
7:37 AM
That screw gauge is just like the one in my diagram. The rough scale on the shaft is measured in 0.5 mm, and one complete turn of the screw = 0.5mm i.e. the scale that goes around the thimble measures an offset of zero to 0.5 mm. OK so far?
 
@JohnRennie yes
 
So when the jaws are closed the gauge shows 0.45mm, i.e. zero on the shaft plus an offset of 0.45mm on the thimble. That means the scale is miscalibrated and always shows 0.45mm more than the real size.
 
@JohnRennie yes $45 \times \dfrac{0.5}{50}$
So $0.5 + 0.25 - 0.45$
 
And when we put the sheet of metal between the jaws the reading is 0.5 on the shaft and 25 on the thimble, so the total reading is 0.75mm
 
which gives 0.3 @JohnRennie
 
7:43 AM
And that isn't in the answers.
 
...Whats wrong?
 
So it means the question is being deliberately confusing, and the "45th division" actually means an offset of 0.5 - 0.45 = 0.05 mm.
 
didnt get
 
It means 50th division = 0, 49th division = 0.01, 48th division = 0.02 and so on.
 
Sid
But then, it would show a reading of 0.05mm less, no?
 
7:45 AM
1st division would mean 0.49 mm
@Sid it says, and I quote, the zero of the main scale is barely visible
Which fits with the total reading being 0.05 mm
 
@JohnRennie whats the use of that statement?
 
(yes, it's a stupid question)
@Abcd if the zero on the shaft is barely visible it means the reading is only just greater than zero
 
Sid
@JohnRennie As almost all JEE questions are. ;)
 
@Sid no, 1 in 50 or 100 questions is stupid. Dont generalise it that much.
@JohnRennie even option 2 is not the right answer
 
Sid
Well, then, option 1 must be the right answer.
 
7:49 AM
@Sid it is
 
What is the right answer?
 
@JohnRennie if its greater than 0 we should subtract right?
@JohnRennie 1
 
Sid
@Abcd Well, other than making you behemoths in solving specific types of problems, those questions serve no application in real life.
 
@Abcd aaah, it means the zero reading is -0.05mm
 
@Sid whatever, its important to solve questions otherwise there is no point of education and learning.
 
7:50 AM
i.e. the reading on the scale is 0.05mm too small
 
@JohnRennie but we are going towards the answer after seeing it :P
@JohnRennie how to judge from the question.
 
Sid
@JohnRennie In that case, this conclusion of yours is wrong.
 
@Abcd I think you just have to hope that the questions in the actual exam are better written. As it is I had no idea what the question actually meant.
 
Its from 2016 Mains paper. :(
 
Sid
Well, my line of thought was that, it's either 45mm more than 0 or 5mm less than 50. If we take the first case, none of the options match. So, go for the second one.
 
7:54 AM
OK fine
 
Sid
That's an exceedingly stupid way to do something. Eliminating cases by comparing with options.
 
@JohnRennie free ?
 
@harambe yes
 
Q17
What does the last sentence mean about 5 wavelength
 
Suppose the excited state is n=3. That means it can have the following transitions:
3 to 2
3 to 1
2 to 1 (i.e. the 3 to 2 transition is followed by 2 to 1)
So in total a gas in that state can emit three different photons. OK so far?
 
8:02 AM
Ok
 
That's what the question means. The gas is in a state that can have six possible transitions to lower states i.e. emit six different photons.
 
@JohnRennie got it
 
8:17 AM
@JohnRennie I give up. Can't seem to solve this
Any hint?
 
Well what value of n has six possible transitions? Hint, we know n=3 has three possible transitions so start at n=4 and work upwards.
 
@JohnRennie n=4 has six transitions
 
Correct!
So we know the state A is n=4.
 
4 to (3, 2,1) , 3 to (2.1) and 2 to 1
 
Yes
Now the transition energies are:
$$ E = 13.6Z^2 \left( \frac{1}{n_1^2} - \frac{1}{n_2^2} \right) $$
 
8:23 AM
Okay
 
And you're told that one of the transitions has an energy of 13.6eV.
You just have to try all the six possibilities and see if there is an integer value of Z that gives an energy of 13.6 eV.
 
Where? We don't know the gas
So Z is still undefined
2 mins ago, by John Rennie
And you're told that one of the transitions has an energy of 13.6eV.
 
Those are the six possibilities. One of them when multiplied by a perfect square yields an integer.
 
@JohnRennie where is it given that 13.6 is one or the transition energy
 
OOps, it isn't 13.6 is it. It's "the first line of the Lyman series" so it's 0.75*13.6
The three columns on the right give Z^2*(1/n1^1 - 1/n2^2) for various trial values of Z
 
8:36 AM
Isn't this question too much
 
It's not a great question because it expects you to solve it by trial and error. But it doesn't take that much trial and error. My table above identifies the transition and the value of Z.
 
I have to admit I am kinda lost now
 
OK, take a step back.
The question tells us there are six transitions, and that one of those six transitions has an energy of 0.75*13.6 eV. Yes?
 
Actually I didn't get the last line you have said. If we don't know Z, how do we know transition energy
 
The question says:
The first line of the Lyman series is the n=2 to n=1 transition in hydrogen and has an energy of 0.75*13.6 eV. Yes?
 
8:42 AM
Yes for hydrogen
 
The Lyman series is for hydrogen
The name Lyman series is the name of transitions in hydrogen, not in any other atom or ion
 
Oh got it
Now I understand it. You are using the quantum numbers to get energy equal to first line of lyman series
 
Yes
 
ayc
9:10 AM
@JohnRennie Hello!
 
@ayc morning :-)
 
ayc
@JohnRennie I have a question.You free?
 
Yes, I'm around for a while. Though I need to make another coffee ...
What's the question? I'll think about while I'm making coffee.
 
ayc
@JohnRennie In X-ray crystallography we use X rays because the wavelength of x rays is about the same order as the inter atomic distances in a crystal.What happens if we use more shorter wavelengths?
 
The Bragg condition is $n \lambda = d \sin\theta$. Yes?
 
ayc
9:13 AM
yes
 
So rearranging gives us:
$$ \sin\theta = \frac{n\lambda}{d} $$
 
ayc
ohk
 
Where $\theta$ is the angle we measure in our X-ray diffractometer.
If you make $\lambda$ small then you get small angles $\theta$ that are hard to measure experimentally.
Ideally you want the angles to be around $\pi/4$ because then they are easy to measure to high accuracy.
i.e. values for $\sin\theta$ in the range of say 0.1 to 1 for the values of $d$ in your crystal.
 
ayc
ohk..............
@JohnRennie Thank you for your time!
 
Q30
Is Q29 Same as Q30
Is the resultant energy going into a photon
But what does wavelengths mean here
 
9:26 AM
@harambe Give me a moment to make a coffee
2
 
Sure
 
@harambe back!
 
Cool
So How do I interpret this question as
I can't seek to make sense of it
 
In Q29 the H atom absorbs the photon and it ionises the atom. The binding energy is 13.6eV, so the kinetic energy of the resulting electron and proton is equal to the photon energy minus 13.6eV.
To a first approximation the proton will remain stationary, so we only need consider the kinetic energy of the electron.
 
@JohnRennie I have solved Q29. I added the photon energy to binding energy
Q30 looks some what close to it except it has photons absorbing the energy
 
9:38 AM
I make the photon energy 12.4eV. Yes?
 
Yes
 
So that means it has enough energy to excite the 1 to 2 and 1 to 3 transitions.
 
Yes
 
I think what the question means is that the photon uses part of its energy to excite the H atom and a lower energy photon carries on. So for example the photon that carries on could have an energy of $12.4 - E_{12}$ eV.
Or an energy of $12.4 - E_{13}$ eV.
So the transmitted beam contains these two lower energies in addition to original energy of 12.4 eV
 
Didn't understand your final sentence
 
9:46 AM
The question asks what wavelengths can be observed in the transmitted beam. Yes?
 
Yes
 
If an incoming photon has an original energy of 12.4 eV and it transfers only a part of its energy E to the H atom, then carries on, the transmitted beam will contain photons with an energy of 12.4 - E. i.e. in the transmitted beam will now be photons with a reduced energy/longer wavelength.
 
Yes
I understand till here that some part of 12.4 ev energy will be used in exciting to 1-2 and 1-3
 
So the transmitted beam will contain some photons with an energy of 12.4 - E12, and some with an energy of 12.4 - E13.
 
Yes
 
9:51 AM
And those reduced energy photons have longer wavelengths than the original 12.4eV photon. So the transmitted beam contains photons with three wavelengths: the original 100nm and the two longer wavelengths.
 
Why 100 nm?
 
Because the original 12.4eV photons have a wavelength of 100nm and most photons will just go straight through and not transfer any energy at all.
 
Makes sense. A parallel beam of light would be made of many photons
Lol I wrote parallel line at first
@JohnRennie got it
 
@harambe Cool :-)
 
@JohnRennie hydrogen atoms being ionized means?
 
10:10 AM
@harambe on phone ...
 
Oh no worry. On doing some searching I found it to be energy needed to free the election from nucleus
But isn't that binding energy definition
 
The ionisation energy is equal to the binding energy of the ground state
 
Okay
 
I'm not sure the phrase binding energy is that precisely defined.
You could have a binding energy for the n=2 level ...
 
Can we have ionization energy for n=2 too
@JohnRennie you still here
 
10:20 AM
The phrase ionisation energy specifically refers to the ground state
(I'm still on the phone)
 
When you get back from the phone, can you ping me
 
10:33 AM
@JohnRennie In fact it is: $\Delta x = 2d \sin\theta \implies n\lambda = 2d \sin \theta$
 
@harambe pingggggg
 
Q33
 
@harambe it's basically the same problem, except that because the neutron and proton have similar masses you have to consider the motion of both particles. So you should work in the centre of mass frame.
 
Okay. Let me give a try to this
@JohnRennie should I convert energy into Joules or is it okay to proceed with ev here?
SI unit of velocity would come with joules tho
 
As a general rule I would solve the problem keeping everything as symbols. So for example write the initial energy as $E_0$ and the momentum is then $p_0 = \sqrt{2mE_0}$.
In fact, unless I've made a silly mistake switching to the COM frame answers the question immediately ...
 
10:48 AM
I was thinking of finding the velocity of neutron and then convert into CM frame
 
Suppose the velocity of the neutron is $v$. Since the neutron and H atom have the same mass (approximately) in the COM frame the velocities of the neutron and H atom are going to be $v/2$ and $-v/2$. Yes?
 
Yep
 
And $KE \propto v^2$, so in the COM frame both the neutron and H atom have a kinetic energy of $12.5/4 = 3.125$ eV. So the collision energy in the COM frame is $6.25$ eV.
 
Okay.. That was easy
 
Yes, there isn't enough energy available to excite any transition.
 
10:55 AM
Where does excitation come here? I am confused
So Kinetic energy of hydrogen gets spent in excitation of photons similarlike potential energy of two body collision
 
Suppose the neutron energy was 25eV in the lab frame, so in the COM frame the energy is 25/4 = 6.25eV. Since in thr COM frame both the neutron and H atom have this energy the total collision energy is 2*6.25 = 12.5eV. Yes?
 
Yes
 
That energy is greater then the n = 1 to 2 transition energy.
 
Yep
 
So what can happen is that some energy gets used up exciting the H atom to the n=2 state, and the total kinetic energy that the neutron and H atom fly apart with is the original 12.5eV minus the n=1 to 2 excitation energy.
 
11:00 AM
Okay got it
@JohnRennie one doubt
 
@harambe yes
 
Why do they fly apart... I forgot the reason
 
@harambe conservation of energy
 
Is there an intuitive reason
 
If two rubber balls collide they bounce back ...
 
11:05 AM
Oh. I got rusty in collisions
Got it
 
Cool :-)
Do you have the answer for Q33? What does it say?
 
Zero
 
Which is the answer we got :-)
 
ayc
@JohnRennie Free?
 
@ayc yes
 
ayc
11:09 AM
@JohnRennie My book says:In the fcc unit cell,two tetrahedral voids are formed on each of the four nonparallel body diagonals of the cube......What does this mean?...I cant visualize this!...How are the voids exactly present?
 
ayc
@JohnRennie In each 1/8 of the unit cell there is a tetrahedral void.When they say that there are two tetrahedral voids present along a diagonal which two are they talking about among these 8?
 
Yes
 
ayc
@JohnRennie what do you mean to say?
 
11:18 AM
> When they say that there are two tetrahedral voids present along a diagonal which two are they talking about among these 8?
Yes, that statement is correct.
 
ayc
@JohnRennie No,I'm asking :There are 8 tetrahedral voids right?...They say that two tetrahedral voids are present along each diagonal.Out of those 8 tetrahedral voids which two are they talking about?..Which two of those 8 are present along any one given diagonal.....Lets say im choosing a diagonal AB ...which two of those voids are present along the diagnoal?
@JohnRennie Please dont mind all my last messgaes....I got it..I was stupid
 
Cool :-)
 
11:35 AM
Is this open tube or close tube? How can we tell
 
It's a pipe closed at one end. The water acts like a solid end to the pipe.
 
So the water part of the tube is close
 
Yes
So $\lambda/4 = 1m$
Yes
 
Got it
@JohnRennie What exactly is the wire doing here
How is it setting the air coloumn in the tube to fundamental frequency
 
The wire is generating a sound wave and that sound wave is resonating in the column. For the column to resonate at it's fundamental frequency the wire has to be vibrating at that same frequency. So once you've worked out the frequency of the wave in the column you know the frequency of vibration of the wire is the same.
And you know the wavelength of the wave on the wire ...
 
11:52 AM
@JohnRennie isn't fundamental frequency determined by boundry conditions
 
If the wire had a frequency that was different from a resonant frequency of the column then there wouldn't be any resonance in the column.
 
Why so
 
Suppose you're pushing a swing, and you don't push at the natural frequency of the swing. That means sometimes you'll be pushing when the swing is moving away from you, and sometimes when the swing is moving towards you.
On average some of your pushes will speed up the swing and some will slow it down. So overall you won't make much difference to the amplitude of the swing.
OK so far?
 
@JohnRennie I got it. No need to explain
 
Cool :-)
 
11:57 AM
It really depends on the frequency of the sound wave that is vibrating for resonance
The perfect condition for resonance depends on the frequency of the wave
 
The vibrating wire produces sound waves that push on the air in the column.
So the air in the column is the swing in my analogy. The air in the column has a natural frequency just like the swing has a natural frequency.
 
Yeah
 
So the wire has to push on the air in the column at the column's natural frequency for a large amplitude wave to build up.
That's what we mean by resonance.
 
Yeah. Got it
 
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