last day (16 days later) » 

18:37
17
Q: Is there discrimination hidden behind the phrase good written and verbal communication

GrasperSometimes I search for web developer jobs and one of the skills is "good written and verbal communication". Anytime I see it it looks like a red flag meaning that they don't want foreigners, introverts, or people with some kind of verbal or speech impairment. From my experience, anytime I apply f...

Almost all employers will require under pain of some serious legal penalties require potential employees to prove they have the legal right to work
"Why would they even require this skill to be strong in a web developer if the position doesn't include any sales or writing?" - because every developer position I've ever encountered involves at least some communication.
@joe strazzere, it's not about some communication but strong communication. I was able to land a job that's why I'm asking about clarification what it means because for some I would not.
@ypercube It is desirable, but not really necessary. I have a friend (yeah, who would have thought? I too have friends.) who I talk to in language A, and she responds in language B. This has gone on for 10 years, and we don't see it as a problem. Although depending on what you call "minimum proficiency", I guess that could serve as an example of your point. :)
Literally every job description I've ever seen requires good communication skills. Even if you are a highly technical IT person that spends all day configuring firewalls and networks, you still need to communicate with other human beings you work with, whether to explain problems or your progress. I think you are reading way too much into this.
18:37
@Grasper - okay, so it seems that you learned that some positions require strong communication skills and some do not.
In my experience, many people whose native language is not English can communicate quite well, while many people born in this country either can't, or don't want to. And like it or not, those web sites you will be developing ARE a form of communication. Failure to communicate effectively to the site's target audience means lost business. Likewise, probably a majority of Americans have "foreign" names of one sort or another.
I'm interested in the introvert and speech impairment part of this question, but none of the answers seems to be addressing very well... There are people who just can't effectively communicate verbally because of social anxiety disorders and whatnot and I feel like that should be addressed.
This question seems to imply that there are no foreign workers who have native-level grasp of a particular language, but these are actually different things entirely. I'm a native English speaker, but I was also a foreign worker. The language of choice at my employer was still English. It also implies there aren't non-native speakers who communicate better than native speakers in a given language.
"Why would they even require this skill to be strong in a web developer if the position doesn't include any sales or writing?" - is there such a thing? Are there really developer positions that are exactly told each and every output text, each button label, column header, error message, log output, etc., and never, never have to use their own English (or whatever language the project is built in/for) skills at some point?
"Must have a permit" means they don't want people who are applying and plan to then use the job offer as leverage to get a work permit.
18:37
@O.R.Mapper - I agree with you. I could imagine a pure back-end web developer that might not need much in the way of language skills. But it can be frustrating to work with developers who struggle to come up with intelligible error messages, labels and related text. Often, they need more help than others, particularly with the error messages.
@ShayminGratitude I'm an introvert and I usually get compliments for being really good at communicating ideas. Being an introvert has very little to do with how good you are at communicating.
Kat
Kat
@ShayminGratitude if strong communication skills are needed, then maybe those people aren't a good fit.
@Kat And how do we know communication skills really are needed and this isn't just discrimination? I see that phrase on every other job description. I think most of the time it should be changed to either "adequate verbal and written communication skills" or "good written or good verbal communication skills".
Kat
Kat
@ShayminGratitude because communication is a very important skill for almost every job out there. It's natural for employers to want people with the best skills possible. Would you expect them to request "adequate coding skills" or "adequate teamwork skills" or "adequate attitude"? C'mon, you are never going to see the word "adequate" in a job listing.
@ShayminGratitude for the record, I don't think being an introvert or having a speech impediment necessarily makes you a bad communicator. Plenty of extroverts communicate badly, they just do it in abundance. :) Speech impediments, language barriers, and accents can all be obstacles, true, but a strong communicator would be able to overcome them.
@Kat: word. Picard’s an introvert, and he communicates excellently.
18:37
@ShayminGratitude: "and how do we know...": you could say that of any qualification. If asking for qualifications amounts to discrimination, maybe you want jobs to be assigned randomly through a draw?
Lee
Lee
It's strange to want people who can speak and write? How would teams operate properly without this?
As far as your name is concerned, there was this media circus where I live (the Netherlands) recently, where someone applied twice to the same job, once with a very traditional Dutch name and once with a foreign name (her real name). Guess under which name she got the job. None of this was intentional, but apparently subconsciously names can be a factor. I don't think this is in any way related to the "good written and verbal communication" requirement, though.
@11684, your example proves it! I get more replies when I use the English equivalent of my name.
18:55
Oh, well, so some introverts communicate well. Whatever was I thinking raising the issue of those who can't and those who have this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anxiety_disorder. Clearly those people just shouldn't apply for such jobs. And since nearly all computer science jobs have that listed as a requirement, they just shouldn't apply at all.
And please, by all means continue to ping me with your dismissive comments and straw man arguments.
To be frank, all I did was point out the answers weren't fully addressing this facet of the question. I didn't ask to be ridiculed in the comments section.

  last day (16 days later) »