The Greenhouse

David S

07:14

@Nic He's not going to get it I don't think, I think they see it as it's my choice not to eat them.

I just ignore snacks and buy my own if I want them.

Zanna

07:27

Vegan snacks just taste better B)

David S

affirmative. sometimes the things people buy I think, meh, I'm glad I can't eat them because it's just a waste of calories

Zanna

11:02

Yeah... first time I tried vegan cake converted me. I started going vegan after that

David S

11:33

huh

I just felt guiilty, I'd watched a bunch of things, I knew dairy etc was just as bad as anything, and then I thought well even though my health probably won't be as good why am I not vegan if I'm vegetarian

I don't think options came into it

Zanna

14:38

Hahaha

There are so many factors

An article I read by Sistah Vegan in Bitch magazine enabled me because I'd heard people I respected complaining about vegan disregard or human rights and racism

But here was a vegan writing about those topics

So I realized I didn't have to be a total jerk to be a vegan

David S

but also non-vegan disregard of human rights and racism

it's not a vegan specific thing

big mac eating primark shopping suv driving m-f-ers

ahem.

Zanna

It sounds stupid, but it just shows how much I felt my way into it

David S

I didn't mean to sound like I thought it was stupid.

Zanna

I didn't hear that from you. I feel myself that it sounds stupid. My journey to veg*nism was low in rationality

David S

doesn't matter though

Zanna

14:44

@DavidS sure but there are some issues like appropriation and imagery comparing animal agriculture with slavery etc

David S

I've only started thinking recently after watching films like "the true cost" about how people suffering is just as rife, okay not just as but very.

numerically less rife.

if you haven't watched it, I recommend.

Zanna

@DavidS I'm not meaning to put myself down here. I just think it's interesting how people have their trajectories into this... it's almost like there are a million ways to mix making the connection

David S

@Zanna it is interesting.

which is why people find their way out of it again. I can't imagine going back but I know people who have

someone who sits opposite me and trolls me about being vegan was vegetarian for, I don't remember how many years but it's either 2 or 10

Zanna

I can cite a series of moments that were enabling for me and I think stories like that are useful, because they might help others, you know?

David S

pretty sure it's 2

Zanna

14:48

Like, when I was 13 a friend of mine went vegetarian

David S

that said, I think I've said before I mostly see vegetarians as "them" not "us" now I'm one of "us"

@Zanna please do

Zanna

I immediately said I was going vegetarian too when she told me

I think she felt I was copying her and was a bit pissed off

David S

Fair enough but if she had different reasons she might have been pleased.

Zanna

But I had been rejecting meat, hating it, feeling more and more disgusted by it, for so long by that point

It was her going vegetarian that gave me permission, that made it possible

David S

did you go back after that?

or was that it

and may I hazard a guess that your friend stopped being vegetarian?

Zanna

14:51

She was probably surprised that I didn't quit it after a few weeks or months. I think she's still vegetarian but I saw a picture of her toddler on Facebook tucking into a meaty pub lunch recently. Not sure I could stand that

David S

This is why I can't see how I could get together with someone who wasn't vegan

I couldn't stand to feed my kids food I know would kill them slowly

but some omnivores get all concerned about making sure they get enough meat and milk and crap we know is not good for them

I should remember that this room is meant to be not judgmental

Zanna

@DavidS there was a brief period, when I was 18-19, when I was eating fish. I was strongly encouraged by my SO at the time who was an omnivore.

David S

understandable.

Zanna

I hadn't eaten fish much as a kid so hadn't really developed disgust towards it. My parents only gave us fish & chips which I found 100% gross because I hated anything deep fried. During that period I would sometimes eat sushi and smoked salmon. I thought of fish being wild and free in the sea, you know

But I had two colleagues who were vegan. They never said anything to me about eating vegan, but shortly after I met them, I suddenly couldn't eat fish any more. It was just like before, I was disgusted by it. I never ate any meat after that

(I was working in a health food shop)

David S

<tangent>have you heard of gretchen rubin?

Zanna

14:59

I never bought fish or prepared it at home. Only ate in restaurants

@DavidS rings a very faint bell

David S

okay, just a thought about personality types but if you don't know her well you won't know, never mind ;) </tangent>

Zanna

My best friend from when I was 15-17 was a vegan a few years older than me. He explained what it was about a bit. But back then it was like nobody knew about it and there wasn't much to eat

David S

I've always been kind of squeamish about meat and fish resembling the animal.

Zanna

Yeah haha

I would probably have gone vegan then if it hadn't looked so difficult for my friend

His family thought he was crazy for it

He couldn't eat at my house, etc

So I thought, it's too difficult

David S

my friend had gone veggie about a year before

maybe 2 years

so at least there was two of us

Zanna

15:03

I hadn't learned to cook then but since my mum refused to cook vegetarian for me I was making myself packet noodles, macaroni cheese, just-add-water rice mixes etc

David S

I'd moved out so I guess that helped

Zanna

My mum gave me some vegetarian cookbooks in that year when I was 17

David S

I was a late starter :)

Zanna

That was very enabling, right? Once you can cook you can control what you eat

@DavidS depends on your family doesn't it :)

David S

yeah and I always enjoyed cooking, mum hates cooking

Zanna

15:05

My mum never liked it until recently

Since she became vegetarian

David S

turning vegan was a level up for my interest in cooking from scratch, I suppose some of it was necessity but still

I think if mum was younger, she might end up going vegetarian eventually

Zanna

I was very close to my parents and they were very people meat eating back then. My SO's family even more so. So I very much kept eating vegetarian personal. It was when I moved to London and started seeking out politics that I encountered veganism again

I never watched any documentaries or read anything about dairy etc

But I accidentally gate crashed a vegan meetup in a vegan restaurant. I was always looking for veggie food. I have always been very food oriented hahaha I'm a glutton to the core...

That place had amazing food, amazing raw vegan cake

David S

man, I bet there's loads more in London since I was last trying to eat there :)

Mildred's was nice iirc, but I wasn't vegan yet by then

Zanna

I read that article in Bitch, tasted that cake, started looking at all this vegan food on Facebook. Suddenly I was like actually this cheese is not something I want to eat. Eww.

@DavidS idk, maybe... a lot of places opened and closed again :(

David S

I confess I wouldn't mind a bit of danish blue if there was a vegan version.

Zanna

15:14

Personally I love health food and Asian food and African food and Mexican food and Middle Eastern food, but I'm not into junk food which seems to be a huge trend in vegan food these days

David S

oh man, if I concentrate I can taste it, acidic but creamy, strong but not socks...

I am always down for something deep fried

I need to start making soups soon

a really comforting minestrone with cavolo nero and beans and things in there, lots of substance

I'm hungry now

Zanna

I fry quite a lot now. I love deep fried flatbread (poori)

I just hate potato chips. I think I'm the only British person haha

@DavidS it was good stuff. Cheese making has really elevated to an art form in Europe

I used to eat loads of cheese. My favourite was always feta. Crumbly feta.

David S

I didn't eat a lot but I liked it

Zanna

Here the tofu is marketed as soya cheese as I mentioned, but having bought it a few times I've realised one brand is slightly fermented so it really is cheesy. If you get a good piece, it's very much like feta, except for lacking creaminess

I used to eat eggs every day too. And pints of yogurt

David S

never ate yoghurt

eggs were hit and miss, maybe 2 a week tho

sometimes i hated them sometimes they were great

Zanna

15:25

@DavidS yeah... I can't imagine either but my first vegan friend became an omnivore

David S

nicely rewound

yeah its like how did you ever bother being vegan !??

and WHY

Zanna

But I think there's a better sort of support structure to help people stay vegan in UK now

My parents get more and more vegan all the time

David S

@Zanna :D

ok, gonna make a break for it

see you later :)

Zanna

But here I'm really struggling to avoid dairy. No problem for other things but being plied with tea and coffee and snacks and being invited for meals, or eating out and trying to get a filling, healthy meal, it's just really challenging socially to omit all dairy

David S

it's bed time anyway isn't it :D

Zanna

15:30

Well, I need to clean the floor first but after that yeah. It's 21:00

David S

have fun o/

Zanna

:) you too

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