The Greenhouse

The Gardener

02:26

-1

Q: What rules does this site currently follow? When does a highly-upvoted post become a rule?

What rules does this site currently follow? Are the rules being followed here arbitrary ("subject to interpretation") or are they very-well-defined so any user can easily lookup a rule if required and dispute a mod's decision citing a particular rule? Are the site FAQs (although there are none a...

Zanna

05:20

@Riker hmm where was that decided? Surely not all recommendations are off-topic? (Thanks for hammering that one!)

Niitaku

08:05

Morning! :)

Zanna

morning :)

thinking aloud I mean broadly speaking a lot of good questions are asking for recommendations...

how are you @Niitaku?

Niitaku

@Riker We (Erica and I) were waiting for community votes/flags. :/

Zanna

there were 2 votes before Riker's

Niitaku

A bit tired, didn't manage to sleep until 00:30 event if I was in bed. :/
And you?

Zanna

If I had a hammer, I would have swung it. That kind of question is not suitable for SE format imho

@Niitaku aww that sucks when you have to get up for work too

I'm fine thanks :)

Niitaku

08:09

@Zanna I saw them. But community should be at the most self-moderated.

@Zanna We agreed that was off-topic. I asked here to encourage self-moderation with votes and flags.

Zanna

I think we don't have enough active people with voting rights at the moment...

Niitaku

@Zanna Yeah :( I wake up at 6. It doesn't make a big sleep.

Zanna

hmm it's OK for mods to close things that really need to be closed

Robert unilaterally closed quite a few posts as you probably saw

I don't know what it's like on the sites you use, but it happens on AU too

yes, mods will hold off and let the community vote

but when the case is clear then they'll step in

Niitaku

@Zanna There's some. And there's flags too. We wanted to encourage self-moderation so that community get used with the tools they have at disposal and, for those who can, "unstack" review queue"

Zanna

unstack?

Niitaku

08:14

@Zanna AU, like SO, have a lot of questions and lot of users used to close votes and flags. It makes more sense there.

@Zanna Reviewing items in review queue

But don't get me wrong, I agree with the closing

@Zanna Maybe I tried to translate a French expression ^^"

Zanna

@Niitaku well I mean, when there are many users with CV rights, then you could say there's no need for mods to do it

@Niitaku you mean, get used to doing it or reduce the size of it?

Niitaku

@Zanna Yeah. You count 19 yesterday, if I remember well. It would have been better to let the time to users to see it IMHO. It's my personal opinion though (it doesn't engage Erica and/or Riker), I don't want to step-in and don't let the community express their thoughts.

@Zanna I mean get used to check review queues and analyse items in them.

Anyway, I don't blame him.

Zanna

@Niitaku yes, but the thing is, we have 564 people with >3k (so CV privilege) on AU, but only about 8 people (typically the same 8 people) do any reviewing of the CV queue on a given day (our queue is never 0 - right now it's ~170). We cannot assume all those people will show up. Some of them have not been seen for weeks. I agree with you in principle - don't close the post, wait for the community to do it. But if it's a very clear case... anyway shrug what do I know about it? nothing

Niitaku

@Zanna I didn't understand your last sentence. :/

There's opinions that mods can step-in on clear cases, that's why I don't blame him. :)

Zanna

08:30

"what do I know?" == my opinion is not worth anything

Niitaku

Why is that? :o You're part of this community as we all do, your opinion matters!

@Zanna Maybe you regret this (linked message) now. ^^"

Zanna

@Niitaku no absolutely not!

:)

Niitaku

:)

I strongly care about community feedback (and feedback in general) to know how people feel about something. If something's wrong (even with my actions), I'm really open to discussion to get things better for them. :)

Zanna

09:05

yeah exactly, that's why you are doing a great job

Niitaku

09:32

Thanks :o You're making me more red than a tomato. :$

Zanna

hahaha sorry

@Niitaku I mean I should stop talking like I know how it should be done, really I don't know. I have the power to VTC the question, which I used, and there's nothing more I should say about it

Niitaku

10:05

I don't want you to feel bad for giving your opinion. :/

Zanna

I don't feel bad, don't worry :)

Niitaku

Ok, cool. :)

David S

13:15

@Zanna Afternoon

@Niitaku And to you (I didn't mean to direct the other one at Zanna I must have been click-happy).

Zanna

afternoon! How goes it?

David S

Not bad thanks ,just wondering where this review queue is (assuming I can see it)

And whether I should spend some time reading SE rules ;)

Zanna

bah, forget about "rules" I say!

read the help center

how many reputation points have you got?

David S

Yes I agree but if I'm going to downvote something I want to be able to back it up other than just disagreeing personally.

er not much, 147

So unless the queue is readable by everyone I won't be able to I'm sure

Niitaku

Hey @DavidS :)

David S

13:24

@Niitaku Hi, how are you?

Niitaku

Review queues are just here. They will be disabled if you can't review them at the moment. vegetarianism.stackexchange.com/review

@DavidS I'm good, thanks. :) I saw you too so I won't ask :P

David S

Ah, yep way off yet ;)

Zanna

@DavidS We need independent voters. If something seems bad to you, you can and should downvote it

I think there should not be rules as such

there is policy and there is The Way Things Are Done about which there is mostly general agreement

codifying law is... not The Way Things Are Done I think... and shouldn't be either

David S

On another note, they had Amy's 'French' country vegetable soup back in so I bought two cans and just ate one now

Well, only the soup in the can, not the can itself.

Niitaku

What? What? Who said 'French'? :P

David S

13:33

raises his hand

@Niitaku It's the one we talked about last week where they apply French or English (in the case of English muffins) when it isn't necessary

Niitaku

I'm here, what do you need? [read like if I were hyperactive]

David S

:)

Niitaku

I remember, I tried to play a hyperactive non-listening guy ^^"

Zanna

@DavidS nice

I made some chocolate beetroot cupcakes and they are too damn good

I meant to add vanilla, without looking I poured in some rosewater instead - accidental victory

and I made some kind of mexican "chicken" thing with clearspring soya chunks that turned out really well

David S

@Niitaku Tried to play?

@Zanna That actually sounds like it might go better with beetroot too (than vanilla I mean).

Zanna

13:50

@DavidS I threw in the vanilla as well

David S

:)

Ooh, I got an upvote already on my answer

Niitaku

@DavidS I meant play a role

David S

Thank you whichever one of you that was!

@Niitaku In a play?

@Niitaku Are you a guy? Your name and profile picture are both unspecific :) (feel free to not answer that)

I should apply one soon just not sure what

Niitaku

@DavidS Hum it's difficult for me to translate this ^^" I tried to play the clown by saying What? What? Who said 'French'? :P I'm here, what do you need?, but I miserably failed ^^"

David S

@Niitaku Ohh sorry, you meant now. That's what I thought you were doing, it's ok.

Niitaku

13:55

@DavidS I'm a guy :)

David S

laughs a bit irl I just remembered that Zanna's profile picture with the thumbs-up is something rude

Niitaku

@Zanna Are you also head chef at home? I would pay for that, you make me hungry even if I ate my lunch

David S

@Niitaku I'm still waiting for those cornbread muffins to turn up...

Zanna

@Niitaku I live in a shared flat, so I am cooking only for myself these days :/

Niitaku

@Zanna Do you prefer cooking for also others? I received an email notifying me that I've a parcel available at a pickup. Is it my cookies? :D

David S

14:04

@Niitaku WTF. Mine must be delayed in the post..

Niitaku

@DavidS That's a joke ^^

@DavidS Oh, no chance :(

Zanna

@Niitaku I like cooking for myself because I don't have to be nervous, but I do love cooking for others, especially sweet things

David S

I can relate to that, whenever I've made food for others it's been fine but I always think maybe I just don't mind my own cooking

And that it's actually rubbish. Not that I make things like you do

Though, these days if you chop vegetables yourself people get impressed!

Riker

@Zanna nvm, I coulda sworn we had a post on it :(

Zanna

14:25

@DavidS very true. I'm sure your cooking is better than you think it is

Riker

just asked that meta

Zanna

@Riker to be clear I 100% agree with that post being hammered

Riker

yeah I understand, but you're right, we should have a meta explaining that

Zanna

but to say all recommendations are "off topic" is extreme

Riker

hm

Zanna

14:26

the post is primarily opinion based

it invites an infinity of answers

Riker

i don't think it's opinion based, but it's definitely too broad

well, it's both

Zanna

it is both indeed

Riker

because recommend implies the best/at least good ones

Zanna

I don't think we need a meta for that really

Riker

<shrug> I'm not sure either, but I made it because I don't want angry people protesting something

Zanna

14:28

eh I think your meta question is too broad :S

Riker

ppcg banned something a while ago (like 3-4 yrs) and then about 9 months ago somebody kept trying to restart it, citing that it wasn't explicitly labeled off-topic

Zanna

haha

Riker

@Zanna o_O why

David S

@Zanna Trolling? :)

Zanna

hmm I guess I should think about it

@DavidS eh?

Riker

14:29

he's asking if your'e trolling about my meta being too broad

David S

nods

Zanna

not trolling

David S

If it was a meta about questions being too broad

Zanna

I should stfu I guess until I can explain what I mean

David S

yikes

Zanna

14:30

o.O

David S

@Zanna I was only joking sorry.. :)

Zanna

no it's fine

Riker

14:44

@Zanna you're the one who made the original tag wiki for [research], mind if I edit it?

to:

> Use this tag when you are asking for scientific studies as sources for answers to your question. If you are asking about experiments done on animals (an ethical issue for veg*ns), please use the tag [animal-experimentation].

Zanna

Oh sure :) I upped your proposal to do the same yesterday I believe.

Riker

oh cool

Zanna

I am hoping that the distinction made here between science and research is not arbitrary

Riker

done

Zanna

nice

Riker

14:48

@Zanna yeah

I made the original wiki for science, envisioning it to be different

but I'm not sure if it's going to stay

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Zanna

message to all: please consider my tag work so far to be provisional and improve as you see fit. They are called wikis for a reason :)

Riker

:D

Zanna

@Riker we can see what happens with it over time I think

Riker

ye

nloewen

@Riker suggested renaming research to scientific-studies in the meta question about these tags. That seems like a meaningful change which would improve the distinction between the two.

Riker

14:52

yeah, but I'm not sure if it's needed

maybe make research a synonym for the latter?

Zanna

@nloewen I guess it does make the distinction clearer...

if we do need that dstinction :S

@Riker good idea, yes

I decided your question is good and I am writing an answer

which probably will be bad

I need to make an MSE post about something else entirely and I'm getting stressed

like xkcd 386

Riker

lol

done with synonym!

research redirects to scientific-studies

Zanna

nice

Riker

15:08

@Zanna status-completed, g'night?

oh no it's 3:08 in th euK

@Zanna about what?

Zanna

@Riker hmm it's about deleting dupes... basically I've got one of the AU mods telling me to do one thing (I disagree with him) and another one telling me (or rather, encouraging me) to do the opposite (I agree with him) so I'm taking it to the top

it's not really relevant to our site at all

we don't have thousands of trashy posts :)

Riker

ah, ok

The Farmer

15:55

0

Q: Plants show intelligent behaviour, is this sufficient for moral consideration?

Recent research has revealed that plants are able to communicate, learn, and respond to harm. Robert A. Freitas Jr. has described these phenomena as hormonal sentience. Are these intelligent behaviours sufficient for moral consideration?

ethics philosophy

Erica

16:31

@Zanna yet, lol

Riker

@nloewen thanks, didn't notice the synonym nuked the description

David S

Now, I don't think it's accurate to describe that as intelligent behaviour

My instinct is to downvote that question, but I don't want to be an asshole, and I haven't read all the links either. But it sounds like it's worded in a way that states plants being intelligent as a fact, I'm not sure it is.

Riker

that's a valid reason for downvoting

what do you think abuot it being opinion based though?

nloewen

Maybe a matter of definition? I've seen it described as being intelligent, but not necessarily as being the result of thought.

Riker

also, anybody with some art skills want to make avatars for our feeds?

David S

16:42

@nloewen Yeah that's my beef as it were :)

Riker

"The Gardener" is the meta bot, and "The Farmer" is the main bot

nloewen

@DavidS feel free to suggest an edit. I don't have time now.

David S

@nloewen You only have to watch time-lapse of plants to realise they have some pretty decent stimulus response and I think that's more likely

@nloewen meh, I getcha, and if plants did show signs of intelligence we'd all be screwed because we couldn't eat anything :)

Zanna

@Erica right now we have more of the opposite problem :)

Erica

@Zanna True, it's the sort of problem that's nice (sort of) to have...

Zanna

16:46

having too many posts or not enough?

Erica

too many :D

that can at least be curated/moderated... whereas not enough there's nothing for anybody to do, or get engaged by, or be interested in

geez... I accidentally answered three HNQ's (on other sites) in the last couple days, and my reputation keeps ticking up o_O

Zanna

it's kind of out of hand... we have ~87,000 unanswered questions

@Erica sounds nice

Erica

I don't know, I get kind of embarrassed when an answer gets over 200 votes

I mean, it was good advice, but the response still seems extreme XD

Riker

@Erica what sites?

Erica

Parenting and Seasoned Advice

(SA I'm still only at 14 votes)

Riker

16:51

ah

Zanna

wow 200 votes... my top answer anywhere has 141, and that's exceptional

Riker

my highest has like 52

:p

Zanna

it's true that the trivial-seeming answers often get the craziest number of votes

Riker

mine printed 10^100 ascii art goats

it took literally 1 minute to make

trivialness checks out

Erica

it seems to be controlled by the question a lot more than the answer, and Parenting HNQs are almost always ones that make the mods wince and want to hide

Zanna

16:52

One of our top users answered a question "how can I make multiple directories with the mkdir command?

and it's his top voted answer

Riker

lol

Zanna

> mkdir takes multiple arguments mkdir dir1 dir2 dir3

but he writes awesome python scripts

Riker

lol

Zanna

and is renowned for his highly detailed answers

so it's funny that that's the top one

Riker

lol found it, that's hilarious

Zanna

16:54

I experience the same kind of thing

Riker

92

A: Is there a way to create multiple directories at once with mkdir?

Short answer mkdir takes multiple arguments, simply run mkdir dir_1 dir_2

Zanna

personally, I take those crazy upvotes to trivial answers as being the compensation for the answers you really work hard on that barely get noticed :)

3

but those are usually their own reward anyway, since you learn from them yourself

Erica

@Zanna true :D

Zanna

I guess I have to feel that I've earned the rep, if rep does anything to measure expertise at all, so that's what I mean by balancing out...

The Gardener

1

Q: Are questions asking for recommendations off-topic?

For the most part, recommendations are off-topic on SE (the notable exceptions being Hardware Recs and Software Recs). However, that's no reason we can't have recommendation questions being on-topic here. For example, take this recent question: What books are recommended for the ethics of veg*...

discussion scope

Zanna

17:01

but now I'm talking crap and I need a screen break ^_^

time to dance around the living room

David S

lol we should create some others and answer them between us

Zanna

@Erica hahaha I hate that!

so bad when some horrible question that you don't want on your site is HNQ

@DavidS haha that's abuse XD

Erica

<modhat> please don't start a sockpuppet voting ring ;) </modhat>

@Zanna When the title is vague and the content is guaranteed to bring people screaming about the OP's terrible life decisions, the HNQ-bot says this is amazing and needs more attention

BAD HNQ-BOT

3

Riker

26 mins ago, by Riker

also, anybody with some art skills want to make avatars for our feeds?

any good artists here?

Erica

I moderate Arts & Crafts, but I suck at drawing :D

however, somebody may want to help out -- chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/38932/the-studio

Niitaku

17:33

Ahh, good to be at home ^^

@Riker Would make a good meta post IMHO

To let all community participate, event those that don't chat :)

Riker

yeah, I'm planning out it later

bit busy right now, leaving house in a bit

Riker

23:24

seirously, thoughts on this?

0

Q: Plants show intelligent behaviour, is this sufficient for moral consideration?

Recent research has revealed that plants are able to communicate, learn, and respond to harm. It has been argued that these behaviours constitute basic intelligence. Robert A. Freitas Jr. has described plants as having hormonal sentience. Are these intelligent behaviours sufficient for moral con...

ethics philosophy

I'm honestly not sure at this point

I don't want to hammer it, but I'm not sure it's not too opinion based

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