Primes and Squares

DJMcMayhem

03:49

The hardest problem on the hardest test

►

This was beautiful

El'endia Starman

05:59

Agreed.

flawr

13:04

"using the {sledgehammer approach, steamroller tactics, brute-force method}" are these equivalent or are there any nuances?

El'endia Starman

15:39

Almost equivalent. I've really only heard the third but to my mind, "sledgehammer approach" implies hitting a smallish target with overwhelming force, "steamroller tactics" implies squashing a lot of things, and "brute-force method" implies simply that you're just powering through the problem with no finesse (sheer brute force alone).

DJMcMayhem

I think the difference between them is that I've only ever heard the third one

El'endia Starman

16:00

I thought that too but then I looked at the CG&CC Gaming room where steamrolled was used and realized that sledgehammers and steamrollers are used, just not in that specific phrasing.

DJMcMayhem

16:24

@El'endiaStarman Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of that. Steamroll is definitely a verb I've used

But I haven't heard the phrase "Steamroller tactics" or "Sledgehammer approach" (although they're great phrases)

It's definitely not related, but it reminds me of the phrase "Drinking out of a fire hose"

El'endia Starman

That's a good one.

flawr

16:41

@DJMcMayhem I like this one:)

@DJMcMayhem I'm not sure I heard these exact expressions but as you said, maybe similar ones like "steamrolled" or so. These were just thee exact results from translating "Holzhammermethode" (wood-hammer-method / mallet-method), which generally refers to using an overkill method.

Or also maybe something that "solves" a problem but at the same time does maybe more damage than good.

Too many maybes

El'endia Starman

@flawr That's typically the case when using a sledgehammer for a nail. :)

flawr

In a math class a friend was always trying to use e.g. Fermat's great theorem or so to prove the simplest exercises, and you would use "holzhammermethode" here as well:)

El'endia Starman

"Fermat's great theorem" == "Fermat's last theorem" for anyone else that was confused like I was. :P

flawr

another translation issue:)

in german it is the "great" theorem as opposed to his little theorem

El'endia Starman

I figured it was a translation/cultural thing. :)

flawr

17:01

@El'endiaStarman how do you talk about Fermat (or maybe someone even more famous like Euler or Bernoulli) in ASL?

do they have own signs?

actually that probably is not a mathematician-specific question.

El'endia Starman

I am almost certain that famous mathematicians have name signs and equally certain that there's no way for me to find out what they are. :P

flawr

oh

hehe

El'endia Starman

#sparselanguageproblems

flawr

:D

not sure if we can apply some compressed sensing methods :P

would be interesting to have a wikipedia in ASL:)

There is a wikipedia for some german dialects (which do not have an "standard" version, and no official grammar rules), and I really don't know how they managed to get so many articles:)

El'endia Starman

Some googling leads me to ~0.5 million people that know ASL and probably not much more than ~1 million people with math degrees (as a proxy for people who would care about Euler, Fermat, etc). The population of the USA is well over 300 million. That means < 0.16% know ASL and < 0.3% care about famous mathematicians. Assuming independence, that's no more than 2000 people who speak ASL and care enough about famous mathematicians to have name signs for them.

In reality, people who speak ASL will mostly be either 1) people-oriented (interpreters) or 2) be deaf, and deafness is comorbid with many other diseases/illnesses that can affect intelligence, on top of education being lower quality for deaf people in general. The probabilities are not independent, so there's probably only like a few hundred people that fit my criteria.

And that's being generous. So, a few hundred people, scattered across a country the size of the United States... Plus a language that doesn't lend itself to a written form, so communication over the internet generally involves videos...

flawr

17:15

And those who do are probably quite scattered. (ninjad)

flawr

18:16

At the sametime that is interesting as most other languages usually display some common locality.

El'endia Starman

How do you mean?

DJMcMayhem

@El'endiaStarman Actually, to add to Flawr's question, is it common to have a sign for a name, or would you just spell it?

flawr

@El'endiaStarman Many places have some particular language, and that language is not really spread much (probably nowadays more and more) beyond its borders - where as ASL is "sparsely" spread throughout a country, that for the most parts speaks other languages.

El'endia Starman

@DJMcMayhem Spelling a name is always an option, but most Deaf people (and those who interact with them often, or famous figures like presidents) have name signs.

@flawr That's what I figured. Yeah, I'd guess that's due to the sparseness of the population itself.

DJMcMayhem

@El'endiaStarman Oh man, that opens up so many more questions I have. Do name signs frequently match the legal/verbal names? Are name signs picked by the individual? Do you have a name sign? Does ElizB?

Is there some characteristic of name signs that make them more obviously representing a name?

El'endia Starman

18:26

@DJMcMayhem Not much beyond the first letter. Nope; picked by people who know the individual. Yes. Yes.

DJMcMayhem

So it's not at all like: "This name == this sign"

El'endia Starman

@DJMcMayhem Name signs are typically not part of the regular vocabulary (though they may often allude to specific signs/meanings) and they're used like pronouns, which are fairly easy to pick out like in English.

@DJMcMayhem Far from it. If two people are in the same circles (socially speaking) and they have the same name sign, it's typical for one of them to get a new name sign (most often the younger one).

Name signs are also usually based on something particular about the individual rather than their English name.

DJMcMayhem

That's fascinating.

It seems like much more a cultural thing than a language thing

flawr

@El'endiaStarman what happens when a deaf couple have a child? Do they pick a name that might get replaced later?

El'endia Starman

E.g. mine is an "L" with the thumb next to my eyes because I have heterochromia. ElizB's is an "E" in the same place/motion as "cute", though my mom likes using the "I love you" sign and moving it like a "Z".

DJMcMayhem

18:31

@El'endiaStarman If you're comfortable sharing, what's your sign name? (As much as you're capable of describing it in text)

Oh ninja'd lol

El'endia Starman

hahaha

DJMcMayhem

@El'endiaStarman That's adorable

El'endia Starman

@flawr Pretty much yeah. Babies have very few individually-distinguishing features anyway, so those name signs are usually fairly generic, so to speak.

DJMcMayhem

I think it's really funny how the "I love you" sign is almost exactly the same as the "metal fingers" \m/ lol

flawr

@El'endiaStarman so does in this case the younger one adopt the new name in other places, or will they maybe have different names depending on the people their currently with?

DJMcMayhem

18:33

Or Spiderman's web shooting

flawr

@DJMcMayhem in german "Pommesgabel" (french-fries-fork)

DJMcMayhem

@El'endiaStarman So like a fist brushing your chin?

El'endia Starman

@flawr Either of those. Interesting thing though is that you almost never see your own name sign. If the person you're referring to is in the room, you just point at them.

@DJMcMayhem Basically yeah.

Except not really a fist because that's "S".

DJMcMayhem

Sure

El'endia Starman

The mouth is also usually shaped as if someone was saying "E".

flawr

18:36

Oh and what about puns? I'm sure there must be plenty of opportunities?

DJMcMayhem

I know very little ASL, but I've known the alphabet for a long time. But I always have trouble with S/R/X and Q

El'endia Starman

Puns do exist but they're less commonplace because there's few signs with multiple meanings that are significantly different. Unlike English...

Well, in the language proper. Something like puns for names are not uncommon, yes.

A guy I knew during Summer Academy in Seattle was tall and had a name that started with "R", so his name sign was the sign for "tall" with the hand shape of "R". That's the same as the sign for "rocket"...

DJMcMayhem

@El'endiaStarman Something my family did a long time ago was to teach very very basic ASL to my brothers when they were really young. (No one in my family knows ASL, just they heard about the trend of "baby sign language" because at a certain age signing is a little bit easier than speaking). Just phrases like "mom/dad" "please/thank you" "hungry/all done". Actually, I think it was exactly those 6 phrases

But I have a very vivid memory of my youngest brother signing "dad" wrong and making the "loser" sign XD

El'endia Starman

bahahaha

@DJMcMayhem Teaching sign language to babies/toddlers is definitely a good thing for multiple reasons, only one of which is that they can communicate earlier in sign than in speech. This is the part where ElizB would go on a tirade about how this is widely encouraged for hearing babies but not for deaf babies (because it would "make it harder to learn English later" >_<).

DJMcMayhem

Wait, are you saying that deaf babies shouldn't be taught sign language, or that they should and it isn't widely encouraged?

El'endia Starman

18:49

Deaf babies absolutely should be taught sign language and dumb doctors discouraged it.

Past tense even though there's probably still some today that discourage it.

DJMcMayhem

Ah OK. That's really sad

El'endia Starman

If you want to hear more, just ping ElizB on Discord or wherever. :P

DJMcMayhem

@El'endiaStarman I don't understand this. Did the doctors just think the kids should have no way to communicate at all?

El'endia Starman

19:17

No no, see, the thing you're supposed to do is a couple invasive surgeries to put in cochlear implants and then stick with spoken English exclusively afterward. (I'm being very facetious here.)

flawr

So today this notion is not as widespread anymore than it was?

DJMcMayhem

@El'endiaStarman When you got your implants, was there an adjustment period where you could hear, but it was difficult to understand or muffled and then it got better over time?

El'endia Starman

@DJMcMayhem Most definitely. This is one of the most common misconceptions about cochlear implants.

@flawr Not sure. I think there's still roughly the same amount of "fix the deafness" but at least deaf kids aren't harmed as much as before...?

DJMcMayhem

How long did it take to adjust? And was it more like the sound was muffled or you could hear but had a hard time interpreting what you were hearing?

I remember reading in some neuroscience books (I think it was "Conversations with Neil's brain") where they were talking about how your hardware can be perfectly functioning, but your brain has to learn how to actually interpret the inputs you're receiving

El'endia Starman

@DJMcMayhem Months, minimum. Definitely more the latter; it takes time for the brain to understand what sounds mean what.

DJMcMayhem

19:26

And brain plasticity etc.

El'endia Starman

Yeah, that's totally it. Hearing babies just have the advantage of being able to hear even in the womb.

flawr

@El'endiaStarman Hm, I never thought about that

DJMcMayhem

I remember an experiment from that book that was really fascinating. They gave blind people various shapes (star, sphere, cube, etc.) And had them identity the shapes by touch. After having their sight restored, they couldn't identify those objects by sight unless they could touch them

Actually, I don't remember if I learned that in a psych class or that book. But it's still fascinating

El'endia Starman

Molyneux's problem

Molyneux's problem is a thought experiment in philosophy concerning immediate recovery from blindness. It was first formulated by William Molyneux, and notably referred to in John Locke's An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1689). The problem can be stated in brief, "if a man born blind can feel the differences between shapes such as spheres and cubes, could he, if given the ability to see, distinguish those objects by sight alone, in reference to the tactile schemata he already possessed?" == Original correspondence == The question was originally posed to Locke by philosopher William Molyneux...

DJMcMayhem

@flawr Yep, thanks

@El'endiaStarman Oh cool. So it hasn't actually been tested. Hmm...

El'endia Starman

19:34

@DJMcMayhem Keep reading. :P

DJMcMayhem

Oh cool!

flawr

This outcome is what I have guessed. I mean you first need to learn to interpret that totally new sense you get.

El'endia Starman

Not very many people have that experience firsthand though. :)

flawr

Well not directly but I have the impression that it is ismilar when you e.g. learn riding a bike, or juggling or something you didn't do before, you first need to get used to what you perceive and what that means.

Or also reading braille with your fingers, I've tried and it takes me great effort to figure out which of dots there are in a single character, but I guess with more practice you get better.

But who am I to talk about this:P

El'endia Starman

Hehehe. You do have a point in that the experience is somewhat similar to learning entirely new skills or how to read Braille, but...hmm. How do I put it. I'm still hearing new things in songs I've listened to many times.

DJMcMayhem

19:45

@El'endiaStarman That happens to me too

Maybe in a different way though

El'endia Starman

Relatedly, my wife showed me last week this version of Let It Go from Frozen that doesn't have an orchestra. I was barely able to hear Elsa's crown bouncing on the floor because I was expecting it but my wife didn't hear it.

@DJMcMayhem Maybe! What is it like for you?

DJMcMayhem

@El'endiaStarman Hmm, hard to describe

Most frequently it'll be some interesting sound or instrument that I pick up on that I didn't notice before. Some other times but not as frequently it'll be an interesting thing about the production (cause I like to think about music production) so like an interesting pan or weird rhythmical variation

I just said the word interesting 3 times in a row

Sometimes I'll notice an individual note from one instrument, but I'm not sure when I first notice that, it'll just be something that sticks out to me when I listen.

I don't know if that really answers your question

El'endia Starman

It helps. :)

For me, it's more stuff like a recent instance where I could specifically hear that the melody was being repeated before and after a pause.

It's happened several times that I hear drums I didn't notice before. Drums.

DJMcMayhem

21:58

I wonder if Molyneux's problem would be different if you gave the subjects time to adjust. Like say you gave a blind subject a star and a cone, then restored their sight, and the could not identify them from sight. But then over several months, they live life as normal and touch objects while seeing them, but are never allowed to touch a star or cone without a blindfold on. Would they eventually be able to identify those objects visually from memory without having ever touched/looked at them?

I suspect they would be able to

PhiNotPi

23:35

this is a radar image of the surface of Venus, taken from Earth

El'endia Starman

Wh-at.

PhiNotPi

"Recently [experiment conducted in 2012, article written in 2015], by combining the highly sensitive receiving capabilities of the National Science Foundation’s (NSF) Green Bank Telescope (GBT) and the powerful radar transmitter at the NSF’s Arecibo Observatory, astronomers were able to make remarkably detailed images of the surface of this planet without ever leaving Earth."

source

El'endia Starman

23:52

We shot a radio laser at another planet to see what it looks like beneath the clouds. :O

(Technically not a laser but that's how this feels.)

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