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10:30
Morning @amWhy
 
2 hours later…
12:45
@amWhy Was at a relatives house yesterday
Morning @everyone
Morning @SimplyBeautifulArt
Hello people
o/
Morning @shredalert
is this o/ some way of saying hello?
waving at people basically :P
Hello @user400188
12:58
ah I see
@everyone
when you answer a question wrong, and then have to answer both the question and explain why you were wrong: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2336599/equivalence-of-universal-closure-of-formulas-and-implication/2336683#2336683
@user400188 He... yeah, that tends to happen occasionally. :P
funnily enough, I learn more and remember it for longer this way.
Yeah, the mistakes tend to stick in memory a lot longer if you've corrected them
compared to just getting a correct answer straight away
Oh, so I was trying to prove the following statement:
$$f''(a)>0\iff\exists\delta>0\left( \forall(x_1<x_2\land |x_1-a|<\delta\land |x_2-a|<\delta )\implies \frac{f(x_1)-f(a)}{x_1-a} < \frac{f(x_2)-f(a)}{x_2-a}\right)$$
Tried applying the mean value theorem, but I wasn't getting the right result
13:07
what are you quantifying btw?@SimplyBeautifulArt
You've got a $\forall$ in your last message. Don't see what it's quantifying tbh.
got sniped
SBM
SBM
Good evening
lol @user400188
13:13
Good evening SBM
Hello @SBM o/
Oh. I'm quantifying $x_1,x_2$
What do they represent? Variables?
I think so... D:
Well, best find out so you can see what the statement means. :P
13:17
Well, I was trying to say that if a function is concave up at a point $a$, then the discrete derivative with one point at $a$ is monotonically increasing for some interval near $a$.
So you're trying to prove the implication on the right?
13:38
the implicatin is not valid it seems
let f(x)=-x^2
a=0.5, x_1=1, x_2 = 2
you end up with true on the LHS of the imp and -2.5<-2.83 on the right
assuming by $a$, you meant to include $\forall a$ at the front of this (the usual convention) and not $\exists a$
@user400188 But $f''(x)=-2\not>0$
@user400188 No, I don't believe I meant to have $\forall a$. It only holds for $a$ that satisfy $f''(a)>0$
hmm ok
sorry I was only working on the $\implies$ part of the formula. I hadnt considered the $\iff$ part.
in that case; consider $a=3\pi$, $x_1=\pi$ and $x_2=2\pi$ when f(x)=cos(x)
now $f''(a)=+1$
In the implication we get $[-1+1]/(-2\pi) < 2/(-\pi)$ and the LHS of the implication is still true
$f''(a)=-cos(3\pi)>0$
$x_1<x_2$ as $\pi<2\pi$
$\frac{f(x_1)-f(a)}{x_1-a}=\frac{cos(\pi)-f(3\pi)}{\pi-3\pi}=\frac{0}{-2\pi}$
$\frac{f(x_2)-f(a)}{x_2-a}=\frac{cos(2\pi)-f(3\pi)}{2\pi-3\pi}=\frac{-1}{\pi}$
13:59
@user400188 It may not hold for $|x_1-a|>\delta$
Indeed, this is the case because $\cos(x)$ is not concave up everywhere, so you can't take $\delta$ to be just anything
Consider $\delta=\pi/2$ for $a=3\pi$ and you will see the implications
delta is quantified with an $\exists$ symbol. So it can be any value thats greater than 0.
the ways its written, its not saying that every delta has to work; just that at least one of them does.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. You cannot disprove the claim with one example, but you can prove it with an example
The $\iff$ symbol should be used to say one is only true when the other is; and equivilently one is only false when the other is.

Since we have a case where one is true and the other false, we cannot rightly use the $\iff$ symbol.
What do you mean? I don't see a case where one is true but the other is false
I think the implication will only go one way in the formula you have proposed.
the case I outlined
14:11
As I have said, when we take $f(x)=\cos(x)$ and $a=3\pi$, then there exists $\delta=\pi/2>0$ such that the given implication is true
@user400188 That's certainly not how it works.
I didn't claim that it holds for any $\delta>0$
hmm maybe I need to review :S
sorry if i sound like a nutcase at the moment
I said there exists at least one $\delta>0$ such that it holds true
Well, think of it like this
$$\lim_{x\to2}x=2$$
Well, the implication is false if there is a case when the antecedent is true and the consequent is false
We can easily verify for all $\varepsilon>0$, there will exist $\delta>0$ such that $|x-2|<\delta\implies |x-2|<\varepsilon$
But this does not mean that there won't exist $\delta>0$ such that $|x-2|<\delta\not\implies|x-2|<\varepsilon$
SBM
SBM
limits?
$\epsilon - \delta$ definition?
14:15
Well, I was just trying to explain hold $\exists$ works.
@SimplyBeautifulArt ah i see my mistake now. I took $a$ to be something we can choose when in fact the value of $a$ is decided by $\delta$
I've got a quick question.
@user400188 No, $\delta$ is dependent on $a$
@shredalert go ahead
The structure you've got is $P\iff (A \Rightarrow B)$.
you trying to prove the $\iff$ or the $\Rightarrow$, or both?
I think @user400188 is trying to disprove the $\iff$
14:17
yeah thats what I was trying to do
Well, all you'd need to do in that case is show a case where one is true and the other is false
Yes, that is what @user400188 was trying to do
And what are you trying to prove @SimplyBeautifulArt?
I'm kinda just watching
xD
14:21
so what bearing does $\delta$ have on the formula?
we have |x1−a|<δ∧|x2−a|<δ , but for the instances when this is false, it wont effct the truth value of the entire LHS of the equivilance (by virtue of the $\exists$ symbol).
And in the instances in which its true, it wont affect the truth value of (x1<x2∧|x1−a|<δ∧|x2−a|<δ)
SBM
SBM
uh
maybe ths is my mistake xD
Also don't forget to prove $P \iff (A \Rightarrow B)$ it isn't enough to just prove $P \Rightarrow (A \Rightarrow B)$, you'd also need to prove $(A \Rightarrow B) \Rightarrow P$.
@user400188 You just need to prove there exists one δ such that the implication is true
In order to show the RHS is false, you'll need to show that for all δ>0 the implication is false
And I forgot to mention that x1,x2 can't be equal to a for obvious division by zero reasons
the definition of $a$ is any $a$ that satisfy f′′(a)>0
14:39
@user400188 yes
"Indeed, this is the case because cos(x) is not concave up everywhere, so you can't take δ to be just anything"
can you explain this for me please? I'm not sure how δ affects the concave of the function
^ Note in this graph, when δ = 1, the implication is not true
But it is true that there exists δ > 0 such that the implication is true
Therefore, $f''(0.5)>0$
The existence of δ such that it is false has no impact on whether or not the RHS is true or false.
You need to prove the lack of existence of such δ.
SBM
SBM
how do you do that on Desmos?
but there is an $a$ that satisfies $f''(a)>0$ and not the RHS of the equivilance symbol (even though there is a delta that satisfies the same a)
@SBM Do what?
SBM
SBM
14:42
plot differential equations and things of that sort
@user400188 Yes! All we need to do is show there is a δ that satisfies the a
in the desmos thing, delta is not present in g(x) or f(x). I am unfamiliar with the program so, could you elude to what the delta is doing on that graph?
in the thing you gave to SMB just then there seem to be discrete steps, in what I have from earlier both functions are continuous.
@user400188 Basically, δ tells us what portion of $g(x)$ we are looking at.
Everywhere within that interval, $g(x_1)<g(x_2)$ when $x_1<x_2$
SBM
SBM
14:50
haha
geneous
@Feeds Only the best
@SimplyBeautifulArt I get what you mean now
although I still think that becuase x_1 and x_2 are bound ($\forall x_1,x_2$), we cant restrict their values using the delta symbol.
Please correct me if in mistaken
It is also bounded by $|x_k-a|<\delta$
15:04
Long time no see @Riker
hey
normally when we say things like $\forall x P(x)$ where $P(x)$ is "they are married" and $x$ is "men" (reading all men are married) - we would take such a statement to be false, as opposed to restricting our statement to mean "all men that are married and not those that aren't"
yea, just been really busy irl
@user400188 Well my problem is more like $\exists xP(x)$. In your scenario, one could say there exists someone who is married
so should there be an exists in place of the for all?
15:08
No, there should be an $\exists$ and a $\forall$. I just can't make a good marriage analogy
instead of using an analogy: what should ∀(x1<x2∧|x1−a|<δ∧|x2−a|<δ) be written as?
$∀(x_1,x_2) (x1<x2∧|x1−a|<δ∧|x2−a|<δ)$ ?
$\exists (x_1,x_2) [∀(x_1,x_2) (x1<x2∧|x1−a|<δ∧|x2−a|<δ)]$ ?
something else?
$∃(δ>0)∀(x_1,x_2) (x_1<x_2∧|x_1−a|<δ∧|x_2−a|<δ)$
$∃(δ>0)∀(x_1,x_2) (x_1<x_2∧|x_1−a|<δ∧|x_2−a|<δ\land x_1,x_2\ne a)$
Almost forgot they can't equal $a$
@user400188 Are you familiar with the ε-δ definition of a limit?
na
just got it btw. Feel like an idiot now
Well, this is kinda similar
Oh, okay
would it be appropriate to write: $\exists \delta \exists X \forall (x_1\in X , x_2\in X)(.....)$ ?
15:20
No. $X$ should be directly dependent on $\delta$. It shouldn't have its own quantifier.
anyway, I need to head of to bed. Its 1:30 am right now
thanks for the help @Simply
 
5 hours later…
20:27
@projectilemotion @EricStucky @shredalert Extremely low quality dupe:
-5
Q: How to find the number, a series converges to

user458082If $$xe^x = \sum_{n=1}^\infty \frac{x^n}{ (n-1)!}$$ Then the series $$\sum_{n=1}^\infty \frac{(2^n n^2)}{ n!}$$ converges to? Can someone please help me!!

This is a dupe of:
-8
Q: How to find the Number , a series converges to

user404274Can someone please tell how to solve. The series $$\sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{(2^n n^2)}{ n!}$$ converges to? I tried like.. $$xe^x = \sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{x^n}{ (n-1)!}$$ But couldn't get there...

@projectilemotion Well, its open for deletion lol. So is the second question
It's 10000 reputation for vote to delete?
Flagged
Idk
I think that question has had enough flags by now lol
20:42
Well, I can't vote to delete, can I? lol
20:57
Stuck on a deduction atm
and I know what I need to solve it, but I can't deduce the intermediary step for the life of me xD
@amWhy some help, pls? :P
21:18
@shredalert What's up?
Trying to deduce $(A \Rightarrow C) \vee (B \Rightarrow C)$ from $(A \wedge B)\Rightarrow C$. Here's what I tried so far:
Fitch-style deduction system btw
1.$(A \wedge B) \Rightarrow C$ premise
2.$\neg((A\Rightarrow C) \vee (B \Rightarrow C))\Rightarrow () \wedge \neg() $
$\Rightarrow In, 2.1 \neg ((A\Rightarrow C) \vee (B\Rightarrow C)) $ assumption
$2.2 (A\Rightarrow C) \Rightarrow \neg ((A \Rightarrow C) \vee (B\Rightarrow C)) \wedge ((A \Rightarrow C) \vee (B\Rightarrow C)), \Rightarrow In$
$2.2.1 A\Rightarrow C$ assumption
$2.2.2 (A\Rightarrow C) \vee (B\Rightarrow C), \vee In, 2.2.1$
$2.3 \neg(A\Rightarrow C), \neg In, 2.2$
Similarly I deduced $\neg(B\Rightarrow C)$.
Now I know I can get there if I can somehow deduce $A\wedge B \wedge \neg C$ in $2.x$
But I don't know how to go about deducing $\neg(A\Rightarrow C)$, therefore $(A \wedge \neg C)$.
@amWhy sorry, it took a while to type up. @_@
21:54
Maybe contradiction is too long.
or I went about it an inefficient way
trying another approach
22:21
I got it
I think
nvm
back to the drawing board
22:34
I'm sorry, @shredalert I've been terribly distracted the past hour. I'll need to review the Fitch-style deduction system you're using.
@amWhy no worries. I'll just get back to it tomorrow.
Keep posting updates; I try to check in later (though I'm thinking you're close to bedtime). I'll catch you when I'm up tomorrow morning (late morning for you).
@shredalert Thanks for understanding!
Yeah, bed time for me right now.
I've got an assignment due on Wednesday, so I'll put this on the back burner for a bit. Will get back to it in my free time.
Kind of spent the whole day doing logic instead lol
Have a good evening @amWhy and everyone else too.
@shredalert I know what that's like!
@shredalert Sleep well.

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