I think there are definetely some distinctions between "to remember" and "to recall" (trying to compare anything but the base verbs seems to be bringing in secondary usages that confound this even more.

@snailplane I think "to recall" includes a certain lack of obligation to remember an event. Whereas "to remember" can be both for things that you would be obliged to remember (chores, the 5th of November, etc), and those that you aren't.

I think (but would need to consult with a native), that it's similar with 覚える・思い出す

I'm thinking along the lines of 見える and 見られる

hmm... I may have reached the limit of how much I can work on this compiler here on vacation. My compiler won't let me use more than 2 gigs of heap space

@jkerian I think that everyone agrees that there is some difference between “to remember” and “to recall.” See rintaun’s comments. However, Andry’s claim that “to remember” is for knowledge and “to recall” is for personal experience looks groundless to me.

@TsuyoshiIto Yeah... I was just somewhat idly speculating on what that difference was. I'm failing to come up with a case where recall can't be replaced with remember... but the reverse is certainly not the case

@jkerian I agree that “remember” has a meaning which is not covered by “recall” (again, as rintuan already wrote…), namely 覚えている.

覚える = put something into memory (= learn = one meaning of remember), 覚えている = keeping something in memory (= another meaning of remember), 思い出す = bring something back from memory (= recall = yet another meaning of remember), although this is a little oversimplification for some purposes.

@TsuyoshiIto True enough, but even if you focus exclusively on the "bring to mind after the fact" meaning of recall/remember... remember still has wider usage

@jkerian I do not know that distinction.

(recall also has additional meanings.. such as to "bring back", such as rescinding orders or as in a "recall election")

I agree with that, but let's focus on meanings related to memory.

Is there a clear example where “remember” is used to mean “bring something back from memory” and cannot be replaced with “recall”?

yes... snailplain mentioned it... in the case of orders or something you were supposed to do

"Remember to drop the letter off"

"I recalled that I had to do X" is valid... but it means something different from "I remembered I had to do X"

I think that “remember” in “remember to drop the letter off” is the meaning “keep something in memory,” not “bring something back from memory.”

I am not sure about “I recalled/remembered I had to do X.” What is the difference?

I'm finding it somewhat hard to explain

I understand.

'recalled' adds a certain level of indirection.

I think recall adds an implication that it's acceptable to have forgotten the thing... whereas remember can go either way

Do you mean that “to recall something” is done by chance?

In other words, not intentionally.

chance, or some external trigger

Hi @TsuyoshiIto =D

@Flaw Hi

@jkerian “Oh, I remembered I had to drop the letter off. I will be back in a minute.” (interrupting a conversation) sounds valid to me, but can you use “recalled” here? This might be an example where “remember” is used to mean “bring back something from memory” and still cannot be replaced by “recalled.”

@Flaw have you slain many a bedbug in glorious combat?

I'm thinking that remember is passive and recall is more active. Like 見える is "can see" but not because you're making any particular special effort to (compare against 見られる)

@TsuyoshiIto Yeah, you can use recalled there as well. it sounds a bit more natural to add "just" before either recalled or remembered

@jkerian Maybe five? or six?

@jkerian Hmm, then that is not an example I was looking for. :(

@Flaw That sounds like the opposite of what jkerian suggested… :(

Maybe there's a similar difference in 覚える and 思い出す

I think maybe because of 出, it makes me think there's an additional effort to bring a memory out

@Flaw I wrote the difference between 覚える and 思い出す above: they are in some sense in the opposite direction (覚える = store something into memory, 思い出す = bring something back from memory).

can 覚える be used for "bringing out" as well?

No.

then it's a clean distinction between them.

Yes.

Compared to this, the difference between “to remember” and “to recall” is so complicated.

See? Japanese is easier!!

That kind of makes the original question on the main page a little off topic

@TsuyoshiIto heh... except for the kanji... I generally agree

Curiously... there is another version of recall that is related, but swaps around the various subjects/objects "Japanese school uniforms recall Dutch ones (implied: to me)"

@jkerian Actually I do not agree with what I wrote (“Japanese is easier”) :)

hm... two close votes already

@Flaw I do not know what the question Andry wants to ask, but I kind of gave up trying to improve that question.

Japanese has a maddening array of する動詞 with some incredibly subtle distinctions... but at least it is somewhat organized

助詞 are almost exactly the same challenge as prepositions... for all the same reasons

I think the question is confusing because it keeps crossing between languages and comparing things on different grounds

@jkerian Aha! So does “recall something” sometimes mean “remind me (or someone else) of something”?

Checking dictionaries...

@jkerian This use of recall feels weird to me, I'm not used to it perhaps

^ The "remember" case here isn't quite equivalent to the other two... but I think the recalls/reminds options are equal

@jkerian I see. That might be what Andry wanted to ask (though I am not sure).

In that sentence I read recall with the meaning of "product recall"

@Flaw It's slightly literary

Indeed, New Global E-J Dictionary contains that meaning. “These flowers recall to me my days in England.” dic.yahoo.co.jp/…

@Flaw Heh... well... a more specific X would probably clear that up :)

ahh... English... you wonderful bastard of a language...

@jkerian lol

@TsuyoshiIto Then the example sentence given by andry 昨日は急に故郷の帰り道を覚えたんだよ makes me a little confused if 覚える cannot be used for "bringing out" a memory

@Flaw I agree, and that is why I asked OP to make the question independent of the difference between “recall” and “remember” in English. We do not want to handle subtlety of two languages at the same time.

because 急に覚える would mean "suddenly commit to memory"

@Flaw That example is wrong, as I pointed out in a comment to that answer.

(ahh I feel stupid for repeating you hahaha)

Bah... it's very frustrating to smack up against a 2 gig ram limit to template-expansion shenanigans, particularly when I'm only compiling about a hundred lines of code

(Should've read the whole thing completely first)

@jkerian Time to switch from C++ to something great like Haskell! (joking)

@TsuyoshiIto One of these days I need to learn me haskell for great good

@jkerian Please do so, and teach me Haskell for great good! :)

I'm kindof under the impression that wheras my actual compiler would be trivial in haskell, managing all of the text processing at the front and back end would be a pain in the neck

There's another verb: 思いつく

@Flaw Unless I am missing some cases, 思いつく means “to come up with something,” and it is not an interaction with memory.

Hm.. no direct relation with memory. I suppose I could force "memory" to be used.

I have to go now. It was nice talking with you both. Happy Holidays!

Cya~ Happy holidays to you too!

indeed... later!

I should probably get back to figuring out how I'm going to invent an inverse compiler...

↑パイレーツ・オブ・カリビアンのブーツストラップ・ビルに付いていた貝だ・・

あと30分で2013年です。おやすみなさい~(お腹こわしたw)