Japanese Language

3 to 5 business days

06:35

> I have heard that it's about 10-20 people here in Thailand every year.
> And yes, they look yellow, with big heads and big eyes!

when taken out of context, it sounds a bit...

Choko

07:16

日本で死者が毎年30~40人？

そんなに多いのか

へ～～

え、うまい棒って一本２０円になったん？

まだ１０円やと思ってた

「お礼をせず食べた」より「お礼も言わずに食べた」のほうが普通じゃないかな

2

A: Are verbs transformed into the ず-form used like adverbs?

Yes. However, something to be careful of is 〜ず vs. 〜ずに: お役に立てず、申し訳ありません。 "We apologize for being unable to serve you." ✗お役に立てずに、申し訳ありません。何もせず、ただ聞いてください。 "Don't do anything, and just listen." ? 何もせずに、ただ聞いてください。 ? "Just listen while not doing anything." I think you ...

「お役に立てず申し訳ありません」は「お役に立てなくて」ってなるでしょ

「何もせず、聞いてください」は、「何もしないで、」ってなるでしょ

一個目は「なくて」で、

二個目は「ないで」になるのは、

どうして？

@snailboat やらずのあめ？

恥知らずの人、より、恥知らずな人、かな？？

分からずです＞＞わからずじまいです、とかかな・・・

Darius Jahandarie

07:49

@Choko 「ず」は「なくて」とほぼ同じだと思う。唯一の違いは「ず」はその連用修飾語的な使い方もあるってことだと思う。その違いを引き出すための文だった。

Darius Jahandarie

08:03

「何もせずください」などはもちろん間違ってるので「ないで」とはかなり違うよね。

ところで、「何もせず、ただ聞いてください。」が「何もせずに、ただ聞いてください。」より自然だと思うの？

Choko

どっちでもいいような気が・・・

Darius Jahandarie

ふむ

Choko

何もしないで、聞いてください。
何もせずに、～～
何もせず、～～

でも、

「何もしなくて、聞いてください」は変ね

なんでやろ～～～

「お役に立てないで、申し訳ありません」は、ちょっと変な気が・・・

「お役に立てなくて、」　「お役に立てず、」のほうがいい。なんでだろう

Darius Jahandarie

なんでと言われてもｗ

Choko

なんでだろ～～

わからないなあ～

Darius Jahandarie

08:33

「それ以来変わらず、同じままだ。」なら…

どう思う

「なく、」なら大丈夫だよね。「なくて」も…大丈夫だよね（ニュアンスがちょっと違うと思うけど）。「ないで」はダメ。と思う。

3 to 5 business days

09:04

ないでいい? なくていい?

Ooo, found this question on the subject

10

Q: ないで vs なくて How to correlate two or more phrases with negative verbs

Can you use -なくて instead of -ないで in the following sentence, keeping the same meaning? What's the difference between ないで and なくて ? 病気になると、一切化学薬品や抗生物質を使わないで、鍼や指圧や漢方薬で直します。風邪の時は何もしないで暖かくして、寝ているだけです。

3 to 5 business days

09:21

Though I feel like there might more to it than what sawa's answer said

Also this

6

Q: Is ないで a te-form?

In this answer, Darius Jahandarie says that ないで is a te-form. I asked about this on chat, and Flaw answered with a question: If auxiliary ください follows after てform and ないでください exists, can we reversely conclude ないで is て form? This makes sense to me, so I think it is a te-form. But a te...

te-form

Darius Jahandarie

09:45

What a bad answer. Don't trust 2013 Darius.

At one point I had a nicer answer written for that, and I lost it. I have yet to remember what it was.

Darius Jahandarie

11:37

There, I rewrote it.

Earthliŋ

11:59

@3to5businessdays I just reviewed your edit

I think that * is used in linguistics to mark "incorrect", so I think it should be left as it was

I'm sure @snailboat can explain this much better than me ;)

Darius Jahandarie

Yes, it is. And "selected by" was more accurate than "used with".

Well, I guess they are equally accurate, but "selected by" contains more information in it.

Earthliŋ

@DariusJahandarie Oh, I'll change it, then

Darius Jahandarie

I did already.

Earthliŋ

Oh, great.

Anonymous

12:25

@Darius You typed 'quntigrade'

Darius Jahandarie

I'm just adding to the mass of rarely used translations for 五段

It bugs me to no end that the "p" in "possible duplicate of" is lowercase.

Anonymous

People use quintigrade, quinquegrade, and quinquigrade, but I don't think they use quntigrade

Anonymous

I didn't edit it since I don't know which you prefer

Darius Jahandarie

I was going for quintigrade.

Anonymous

I stick with consonant- and vowel-stem in English now

Darius Jahandarie

12:29

Maybe that's better.

I just wanted to get rid of "type one"

Anonymous

I was struck by the multiplicity of forms, though, of 5-grade

Anonymous

It seemed to me quinquigrade would be the most natural version, but...

Anonymous

That spelling is rarely used

Darius Jahandarie

Well, the commonly-used prefixes for the different types of verb classes are rather inconsistent aren't they?

I think I usually see monograde for 一段, which is the Greek multiple prefix. I think I usually see bigrade for 二段, which is the Latin multiple prefix.

Anonymous

Mono- and bi- are in alternation fairly often in English, perhaps surprisingly.

Anonymous

12:35

Monocular, binocular

Anonymous

Monokini, bikini

Anonymous

But monoxide, dioxide

Anonymous

Hmm, monogamy, bigamy

Anonymous

Monolingual, bilingual

Darius Jahandarie

Monocycle, bicycle.

Wait... :-)

Anonymous

12:36

Hehe!

Darius Jahandarie

I'm not sure what I usually see for 四段.

In fact I think the only time I've seen that translated into English is by Dono, who did it as quadrigrade.

I do tend to like the "grade" translations though, because they are faithful.

(Of course being faithful is often harmful, like with 助動詞 :-)

Anonymous

Frellesvig uses monograde, bigrade, quadrigrade, quinquigrade

Anonymous

And upper/lower

Darius Jahandarie

Hmm, why is it quinquigrade rather than than quinquegrade, actually?

Anonymous

Along with k-irregular, r-irregular, s-irregular, n-irregular

Darius Jahandarie

12:40

Ah, I have to say I like that better than カ変ラ変 etc

Anonymous

The basic form is quinqu(e)- I think

Darius Jahandarie

Using the -a column kana to represent the entire row is fugly.

Anonymous

I meant to type "It seemed to me quinquegrade would be the most natural version" earlier

Anonymous

But I confused myself talking about all these different forms :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Hehe.

Anonymous

12:42

Quinquegrade is the one that neither Dono nor Frellesvig uses

Darius Jahandarie

We can start a revolution!

Quinquegrade or bust!

Anonymous

Yeah! Quinquegrade all the way!

Darius Jahandarie

I can see why that isn't used though, quinque- is pretty darn uncommon I think.

Anonymous

Sep 7 at 1:53, by snailboat

I wonder why not quinquegrade

Anonymous

There's me, wondering in the past

Anonymous

12:43

Most words with quinqu(e)- are rare or obsolete

Darius Jahandarie

I think quinti- is more common, but tetra- is probably the most common

Err

penta-, isn't it :)

Good thing my degree isn't in math, I would have had to give it up for that mistake.

Anonymous

> quinquefolium, quinquennium, quinquerēmis, quinquevir(ī), the adjs. quinquefolius, -mestris, quinquennālis, and †quinque-ˈangle, -ˈangled, -ˈangular adjs., quinquangular, pentagonal; quinque-ˈannulate, -arˈticulate, -ˈcapsular, -ˈcostate, -ˈdentate, †-dentated, -ˈdigitate(d), -ˈfarious adjs.; ˈquinquefid a. (see quinquifid); †quinquefoil, cinquefoil; quinqueˈfoliate, †-foliated, -ˈfoliolate, -ˈjugous, -ˈlateral, -ˈlibral adjs.; quinqueˈliteral a. and n.; quinqueˈlobate, -lobed, -ˈlocular, †-mestrial adjs.; †-metre; -ˈnerval, -nerved, -pedal, -peˈdalian, -ˈpetaloid, -ˈpunctal, -ˈpunctate, …

Anonymous

(OED)

Anonymous

Quinquangular is fun to say.

Darius Jahandarie

Haha.

Anonymous

12:46

Quinqueannulate!

Darius Jahandarie

Maybe monograde, digrade, trigrade, tetragrade, pentagrade is the most recognizable progression. Not like anything other than monograde and pentagrade would actually be used anywhere though.

Anonymous

> 1861 Bently Man. Bot. 152 "It is said to be..five-ribbed or quinquecostate."

Darius Jahandarie

I would italicize so much more stuff if it was / and not *.

Anonymous

Do you mind underscore equally?

Darius Jahandarie

Oh, that's better than *.

Anonymous

12:47

Because I think underscore works, too.

Darius Jahandarie

Not as good as / though, as that is what I'm used to.

Anonymous

Since Jeff Atwood decided we would have no actual underlining :-)

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie Here's what I think is easiest to understand...

Anonymous

1-grade, 2-grade, 4-grade, 5-grade

Anonymous

I've never seen anyone write it that way though :-)

Anonymous

12:48

Except me

Anonymous

I've seen myself write it that way! :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Hmm. Those feel weird for some reason.

Like, normally they'd be ordinals wouldn't they?

Oh wait, no, ordinals aren't the right thing for this.

Semantically.

Anonymous

{ a i u e } { a i u e o }

Anonymous

Technically, that question asks about irregular verbs and adjectives, while the other only asks about irregular verbs

Anonymous

Also, I feel like a larger list could be made

Darius Jahandarie

12:53

Yeah, I noticed that.

An answer as long as the wikipedia page on this could be made!

Anonymous

I managed to fit what I thought were all the irregular verbs into a comment before :-)

Anonymous

@YangMuye I think Japanese has 15 or so: する and くる of course, ある without the expected *あらない, くれる without the expected *くれろ, 行く without the expected 行った, 乞う and 問う without the expected *乞った and *問った, then ござる・くださる・なさる・いらっしゃる・おっしゃる, and 言う with ゆう, and then depending on whether you count verb pairs like 愛す・愛する which appear in alternation (愛する but 愛さない) you can add a few more to the list . . . 〜うる is a little funny too with its leftover うる but no *うない, though counting auxiliaries is probably cheating. — snailboat ♦ May 22 at 0:13

Anonymous

Depending on how you conceptualize the grammar, not all of these count as irregular

Anonymous

ある has the 未然形「あら」 as in あらぬ, but ない won't attach to it

Anonymous

So you could say ある has all the expected forms and isn't irregular if you conceptualize it that way

Anonymous

12:57

@snailboat I wouldn't really consider ゆう to be irregular. It's just a slurring of the I and U sounds together. — KingPumpkin May 22 at 0:37

Anonymous

That has two upvotes but I don't think it's true

Anonymous

@Choko Oh, that's interesting! Just a moment

Anonymous

@Choko In BCCWJ I find 21 results for 恥知らずの and 19 results for 恥知らずな

Darius Jahandarie

Is publication date indicative of any trend?

Or source.

Anonymous

Publication date, not really

Anonymous

13:02

They span about the same amount of time. The newest results for 恥知らずの are newer

Anonymous

They also give birthdate

Anonymous

For the authors, well, birth decade

Rilakkuma

{sasisuseso}

Anonymous

Hmm, the ages are about the same, with the の speakers being slightly younger on average (but the difference probably isn't significant)

Anonymous

恥知らずの has slightly more use in the online sub-corpus from Yahoo! 知恵袋 and Yahoo! ブログ

Anonymous

13:05

But it looks to me like both forms are used

Darius Jahandarie

Interesting. I wonder if there's a different in meaning. Probably not.

Anonymous

Well

Anonymous

In general I believe there are a few differences between の and な

Anonymous

Semantic differences, I mean

Anonymous

One of them is gradability―I think な adjectives are typically gradable and の adjectives are typically not

Anonymous

13:06

Have you seen this paper? petit.lib.yamaguchi-u.ac.jp/G0000006y2j2/file/9794/…

Anonymous

Or Yamakido's papers on adjectives

Darius Jahandarie

I have read a total of 0 linguistics papers in Japanese

Anonymous

Hmm, let me find the paper I'm thinking of

Darius Jahandarie

I guess to me 恥知らずな人 feels more like an opinion than 恥知らずの人

Anonymous

Like, な being more subjective than の?

Darius Jahandarie

13:09

Yeah, something like that.

Anonymous

Here we go, it was by Morita: repository.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2261/54880/1/…

Anonymous

Ahh! I just accidentally figured out the key to rotate PDFs and confused myself :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Nice paper.

Anonymous

It's relevant to that question someone asked about "no-adjectives"

Anonymous

Someday I'm going to go and write an answer about the fluid boundary between the 形容動詞 and 名詞 categories when I feel like I understand the implications better :-)

Rilakkuma

13:13

なの

本当なの？

あたし、嘘つきなの。

do you mean these?

Anonymous

No.

Rilakkuma

ごめんなさい then.

Anonymous

Like 裸の・病気の・丸の rather than 裸な・病気な・丸な

Anonymous

In traditional Japanese grammar, a ノ形容詞 category is not recognized and they are instead treated as 名詞

Anonymous

One motivation for recognizing it is that 形容動詞 generally can't be subjects or objects, but 名詞 can. But what about words that express qualities, similar to 形容動詞, but can't be subjects or objects? A number of words that are like nouns in the set of copula forms they take can appear attributively or predicatively but can't be predicated upon

Anonymous

13:18

If you don't require that 名詞 be able to be subjects or objects, then there's no need to recognize a separate category

Rilakkuma

I think な is less determined.

Anonymous

It is interesting that there are a bunch of words where you can use な or の

Anonymous

I'm very interested in how people perceive the difference between them

Anonymous

Did you see that paper, Rilakkuma? petit.lib.yamaguchi-u.ac.jp/G0000006y2j2/file/9794/…

Anonymous

It's about native speakers' perceptions of な versus の

Rilakkuma

13:29

I just asked my wife

she said exactly that - な is less determined than の and used 丸の感じ to describe a circle on a paper, and then 丸な感じ and draw something resembling circle as the example.

Anonymous

Thanks! It's interesting to hear her opinion :-)

Rilakkuma

Thanks!

Darius Jahandarie

@Rilakkuma Hmm, for some reason I was under the impression you were female. lol

Rilakkuma

why do you think only males can have wives? :)

but anyway, you are right, not female here.

Darius Jahandarie

I thought same-sex marriage wasn't legal in Japan.

I blame your avatar on the site for the gender confusion.

And a name ending with -kuma sounds girly!

Anonymous

13:34

熊 sounds masculine to me!

Darius Jahandarie

For some reason my image of くま is of something かわいい (like a teddy bear or a kid's drawing of a bear), while my image of "bear" is just an actual bear.

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

Hiragana are cuter, huh :-)

Anonymous

まるもじ～

Darius Jahandarie

How does something actually become a hot network question by the way?

Anonymous

13:40

There's a formula. It's listed on Meta.SE

Anonymous

At least, if you're willing to assume that the documentation isn't out-of-date.

Anonymous

Meta.SE is a really interesting approach to large-scale documentation rot

Anonymous

My silly English question is still Hot! :-)

Darius Jahandarie

I find it amusing that you call it "an approach to documentation rot".

Rilakkuma

@DariusJahandarie the picture on the main site is small part of Aida Makoto's drawing

Darius Jahandarie

13:42

As if they made it in response to the question "How do we best cause documentation rot?"

Anonymous

Hahaha.

Rilakkuma

@DariusJahandarie you can see a girl with exploding head and strawberries flying out

Anonymous

Oh, those are strawberries?

Choko

@snailboat へえ！

Rilakkuma

@snailboat yes, on the original picture there are two naked girls running. One is holding something freaky - sort of insect or animal, wrapped like a child, and another one has her head exploded with strawberries.

Anonymous

13:46

@Choko Oh, I haven't learned about ～ずじまい yet

Anonymous

I remember seeing it in Martin's book

Anonymous

But I didn't read that part yet

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma o_o;

Rilakkuma

@DariusJahandarie I think Rilakkuma is more popular with men despite being very cute... Mainly because it is clearly an antipod to a classical Japanese salaryman.

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma I like たれぱんだ

Anonymous

13:47

I used to have a friend with a really cute たれぱんだ bag

Darius Jahandarie

An antipod?

Rilakkuma

@DariusJahandarie the opposite

Anonymous

Like, antipode, the polar opposite of something

Rilakkuma

@snailboat tarepanda is cute!

Darius Jahandarie

I only ever hear "antipode" in the context of the earth.

Anonymous

13:48

Yeah, me too. Almost.

Anonymous

Particularly in antipodean

Anonymous

Or antipodal

Rilakkuma

sorry, my vocabulary is weird at times. But it takes some time and practice to improve.

Darius Jahandarie

わかるよ

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma It's fine. I understood you :-)

Darius Jahandarie

13:50

存じますよ！

Rilakkuma

:)

Rilakkuma was genius I think. It is perfectly made to display all the secret needs of a working man.

Anonymous

It's a good question why it's antipode and not antipod

Anonymous

I have no idea why... :-)

Rilakkuma

perhaps same as "node", which comes from "nodus"?

that's not the explanation though.

Anonymous

It looks like it might have been borrowed into English as a plural and then had the singular formed by backformation, dropping the s

Anonymous

13:59

But there are citations for antipod in English historically too

Anonymous

Well, that shouldn't be too surprising. Latin used to be part of getting an education in English

Anonymous

These days it's not

Anonymous

Relatively few English speakers study Latin now

Darius Jahandarie

I wanted to study Latin in middle school.

But for some reason I no longer remember, I wasn't let in.

So instead I had to take French, which I really disliked (because of the teacher of course).

Anonymous

They stopped offering Latin the year I started

Anonymous

14:01

I took French!

Anonymous

But I decided to study Japanese instead

Darius Jahandarie

I don't remember a word. Okay, maybe a few words literally speaking, but that's it.

Anonymous

Oiseaux!

Anonymous

coin, coin!

Darius Jahandarie

Le escargot!

Anonymous

14:03

Hehe, that's an obligatory contraction in Modern French

Anonymous

Though it used to be optional

Darius Jahandarie

You seem to know what you're talking about. :)

Anonymous

Sure, I seem to!

Anonymous

There's just a few obligatory contractions, like le de > du and à + le > au

Darius Jahandarie

Anyways, I have no real interest in picking French back up, except maybe to read some Grothendieck.

My next language after Japanese is Farsi.

Anonymous

14:05

Yay

Rilakkuma

in Japan knowing some French is mandatory

Anonymous

As I understand it, that's a challenging language for non-native speakers

Darius Jahandarie

Farsi was my first language.

Apparently I spoke it fluently when I was a really young kid.

Anonymous

Did you speak it at home?

Darius Jahandarie

Then I was frustrated in school because my English was awful.

So my parents switched to English to help me out.

And then I forgot all the Farsi!

Rilakkuma

14:06

because apparently nearly every food shop which serves something European has French menu (and no English one)

Anonymous

That must have been at a fairly young age

Anonymous

I'm guessing 6 or 7?

Rilakkuma

wow

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah, fairly young. I don't recall.

Anonymous

(or earlier)

Darius Jahandarie

14:07

I think it was probably earlier.

Anyways, I do have some intuition for it, but I'm pretty bad overall.

I can kind of understand what people are saying at the family parties and such.

Depends on the topic.

Anonymous

I have lots of languages I'd like to learn, but so far I haven't been willing to spend the time

Anonymous

I tried learning some Korean about 12 years ago

Rilakkuma

what languages are you interested in, aside of Japanese and Korean?

Anonymous

Me? I guess English, Spanish, French, Latin, Greek, Mandarin

Darius Jahandarie

The main thing blocking me from learning Farsi is that I never hear/read any. I don't consume any media in Farsi. The big thing that has helped me with Japanese is all the anime.

Rilakkuma

14:10

@snailboat are you native English speaker?

Anonymous

Yes

Darius Jahandarie

Anyways, at some point I plan on taking some classes.

Anonymous

But I'm interested in my native language! :-)

Rilakkuma

excuse me, will ask silly question then

I've heard Romance languages are sort of easy to learn for native English speakers, do you feel like this is true?

Anonymous

Yes

Rilakkuma

14:11

could you please elaborate?

Anonymous

I think it's much easier for an English speaker to learn French than Japanese

Rilakkuma

like how easy - vocabulary, grammar, pronunciation?

Anonymous

There's a large number of cognates

Anonymous

French grammar is somewhat different from English but honestly not all that different

Darius Jahandarie

I know a number of people who know like 6-7 languages, most of which are Romance languages, so I take it that it's true.

Anonymous

14:12

Every single phoneme in French is different from English, however

Anonymous

Spanish is a little easier than French in terms of pronunciation

Anonymous

Spanish is a little harder than French in that people speak it slightly faster

Rilakkuma

@DariusJahandarie I know approximately 6 languages.

Anonymous

I can't say how many languages I know because I can't figure out what it means to know a language

Anonymous

English is the only language where I have a native-sized vocabulary (35000 words)

Darius Jahandarie

14:13

I was using "can hold an everyday conversation in it"

Rilakkuma

yes, this is the important point. As long as you can read and speak it is enough to say "know"

because I am not even sure about my native language to say "I know it to the roots"

Anonymous

Well, there's always more to learn about any language.

Darius Jahandarie

My English vocabulary is like 18000 I think. :-)

Anonymous

English has hundreds of thousands of words, but no one knows all of them.

Anonymous

Kind of like how no one knows every hanzi in existence.

Rilakkuma

14:14

Chuck Norris does...

Anonymous

And grammar gets fuzzy around the edges

Anonymous

So when you start examining a language closely, you realize everyone's copy of that language is slightly different :-)

Anonymous

Native speakers don't all speak the same way. Everyone's unique!

Darius Jahandarie

Yeay!

We're all special flowers!

Rilakkuma

@snailboat thank you! That point about Romance languages was always very interesting to me. Tried to learn French at some moment but 諦めた because it was boring and relatively hard.

Anonymous

14:15

Everyone is special, just like everyone else!

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma French and Spanish involve a fair bit of memorization for verb forms

Anonymous

Much more than Japanese

Anonymous

But I don't really think it's that hard to learn for an English speaker

Anonymous

My study buddy is also a native speaker of English who studied French and thinks the same thing

Anonymous

(French was a lot easier than Japanese)

Darius Jahandarie

14:17

All I know is that I've been studying Japanese for ages and still feel like I suck, so I really wonder how some of these people speak so many languages.

Earthliŋ

Have you lived in Japan?

Darius Jahandarie

Nope.

Earthliŋ

Aha!

=)

Darius Jahandarie

I went there for vacation once for 2 weeks!

Earthliŋ

It's a lot easier to learn a language by being around native speakers for an extended period of time

I learned all my Japanese by living in Japan for 3 years

Darius Jahandarie

14:19

Honestly, some of the (non-native) people with the best Japanese I know have never lived in Japan.

They just read Japanese all day for years

They probably don't speak well, but writing-wise they are better than many Japanese people I think.

Earthliŋ

Hm... I guess that's an option, too. When I think about Japanese, I remember things that people said to me

It's like having a huge database of example sentences

I still suck, but that I just attribute to Japanese being hard =)

How come you know so many people studying Japanese?

Darius Jahandarie

I don't in person, just on the internet.

Mainly on IRC.

Anonymous

When I started studying Japanese in high school, I started a little trend. All of my friends decided it was cool and to start studying with me :-) So we made a little study group

Earthliŋ

Oh, I see. I don't really know people in real life studying Japanese...

Anonymous

But as far as I'm aware none of them stuck with it

Darius Jahandarie

14:23

@snailboat Wait, what high school did you go to?!

... just kidding. :-)

@Earthliŋ Yeah, I don't know many people either. I know a few due to going to Japanese meetups occasionally.

Living in a city is nice sometimes.

Earthliŋ

I live in the countryside now =)

Darius Jahandarie

Anyways, I'd love to live in Japan for a couple years for language-learning purposes, but not from any other angle really. :P

I guess studying Judo would be fun too.

Anonymous

Martin says ～ずじまい（だった）　＝　～ないでしまった　'ended up not V-ing'

Darius Jahandarie

But working there doesn't not seem like fun.

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie If only you liked Ruby! :-)

Darius Jahandarie

14:26

There are Haskell jobs in Japan too! It's just the working conditions are not very good there I hear.

Choko

そうそうそんなかんじ>end up ~~

Earthliŋ

What 2 days holiday per year and a 60h working week is "not good"?

Darius Jahandarie

I work plenty of hours at my current job, but mainly just because I want to. I also am unable to be in the office like clockwork as you need to be in Japan.

Choko

@Earthliŋ 労働基準法違反

@DariusJahandarie かも～ん

Anonymous

He also lists ～ずじまいになってしまった

Choko

14:31

へえ

そうねえ

Darius Jahandarie

@Choko なに？

Choko

かも～ん。to japan to study

Darius Jahandarie

金持ちになるとそうする

Earthliŋ

@Choko Well, officially ;)

I have a friend/acquaintance, who worked for 40 years for the same company, and had around two years of paid holidays left, which she just gave up...

Choko

えええ・・・

Darius Jahandarie

14:35

うわっ

Anonymous

Around here, there's usually a limit to how much vacation time you can save up

Anonymous

So you can lose your vacation time if you don't use it

Anonymous

The most I ever saved up was 35 days

Choko

おお、一ヶ月以上・・

海外行けるや～ん

使わないと消えるのは日本も同じかな

Darius Jahandarie

日本では忙しい時に「年休日を使いたいんですが…」を聞くなんて想像できない

ただ使わずに何も言わないだろう

Anonymous

14:49

I did watch that Robotics;Notes cartoon

Anonymous

And grepping subtitles for ずじまい I see it was used in there

Anonymous

anime/Robotics_Notes/Robotics_Notes_005.txt:0:10:58 結局　原因は分からずじまいってことか…。

Anonymous

Funny how I can convince myself I'm understanding things without realizing I'm missing stuff like that :-)

Anonymous

Well, now I have it in my notes!

Anonymous

My, um, non-robotics notes

Darius Jahandarie

14:52

Haha.

I don't think 〜じまい is too common.

Anonymous

When I searched, I found that it was about 1/1000th as common as ～ている

Darius Jahandarie

I'm not sure if I've ever heard it with anything aside from 分からず actually, though I'm sure it is

Anonymous

Just a sec

Anonymous

It definitely looks like 分からず is the most common

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