Japanese Language

Tim

02:56

昨日英語のテストのリンクがここにでたんですね。これは語彙数すいてテストです。興味がある方、どうぞ

kecl.ntt.co.jp/icl/lirg/resources/goitokusei/goi-test.html

Chocolate

05:07

@Tim 知らない単語がいっぱい！！

38番以降

う～ん、がんばったら40番までわかるかな

Anonymous

05:20

Oh, that test looks intimidating! :-)

Chocolate

何回やっても、最後の10個くらいが、いきなり難しくなる

Anonymous

05:36

Oh, does it give you different words every time?

Anonymous

I tried an English one a year or so ago, but that one has the same words every time so I can't try again

Chocolate

同じみたいだわ…

3種類やりました。

どれも、最後の10~12個、

わからない！

Anonymous

Oh, I see

Anonymous

I know the first few words! Yay :-)

Chocolate

英語版もあるの？

コワイ・・・ｗｗｗｗ

Anonymous

05:41

testyourvocab.com

Chocolate

やりたくないわ・・・ｗｗｗｗｗｗ

Anonymous

Hehe, I started the Japanese one... it's going to tell me I know, like, five words :-)

Anonymous

I think I could understand some of these words in context, but I'm not sure what they mean looking at a list

hippietrail

do we know the etymology of 壊? i'm having trouble finding a way to remember it

Anonymous

Do you mean the origin of that kanji or a word written with that kanji?

hippietrail

05:45

the kanji

it seems not to be common in chinese but doesn't seem to be a shinjitai

Anonymous

It is a 新字体, just check the 常用漢字表 where 旧字体 are listed in parentheses. This one says (壞)

hippietrail

oh

Anonymous

There's an HTML version of the main body of the 常用漢字表: bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/joho/kijun/naikaku/kanji/…

Anonymous

Search for 壊 there

Chocolate

2ページ目もある！ひええ

2ページ目、一番左の行しかわからん

右、1つもわからん

hippietrail

05:48

doh yes they are linked in wiktionary so i just missed it. it's not specifically stated to a be a shinjitai though

Chocolate

わ、年齢も国籍も聞かれる

Anonymous

@hippietrail The 常用漢字表 is, I think, the only official source for the 新字体・旧字体 labels

Anonymous

@Chocolate I don't think you have to answer, do you? I forgot... They're trying to collect data, though

hippietrail

semantic 衣 (“clothes”) + phonetic 眔

yes i had some code a few years ago to do tricky stuff with shinjitai/kyujitai but lost it in a hard drive crash

Chocolate

10,000 語だって…めっちゃアバウトやな

hippietrail

05:51

oops that was wrong. it's semantic 土 (“earth”) + phonetic 褱

Anonymous

泥濘 looks really familiar but I don't think I actually know what it is

Chocolate

でいねい・・・かな

（意味は知りません）

Anonymous

Oh, I didn't know that word at all :-)

Anonymous

I don't know why it looks familiar

Chocolate

泥、は、どろ、でい・・・

Anonymous

05:53

The dictionary lists 泥濘む　＝　ぬかるむ and 泥濘　＝　ぬかるみ

hippietrail

((wink + clothes) + earth) = rotten) = "break"

Chocolate

濘は、右に丁寧の「ねい」があるので

Anonymous

@Chocolate I remember that one because でい is such a rare 音読み

Chocolate

テキトーに「でいねい」

hippietrail

the mnemonic creating part of my brain is just not reacting d-:

Anonymous

05:54

I don't think I know any other kanji with the reading でい

Chocolate

え！「ぬかるむ」って読むの

へ～～

でい、・・・

ないねえ

Anonymous

And I don't actually know the kanji 濘, but I know 寧 and 檸 and 獰

Chocolate

檸　looks like it has something to do with みかん

Anonymous

Oh! I learned that one only a few months ago...

Chocolate

but i don't know 獰

Anonymous

05:56

檸檬！

Anonymous

獰猛！

Anonymous

Also in 獰悪

Anonymous

Those are my vocab words for those kanji :-)

Chocolate

よめん！ｗｗｗ

Anonymous

檸檬 is... レモン！

Chocolate

05:57

おおおお！

Anonymous

I was surprised at which foods people sometimes write in kanji

Anonymous

I was surprised by 珈琲 too

Chocolate

I can read　珈琲　but I don't think i can write it without パソコン

Anonymous

I don't think I can remember how to write 珈琲

Anonymous

I can remember 檸檬 because I practiced it

Chocolate

05:59

ええ！

Anonymous

I was practicing kanji with 蒙 like 朦・濛

Anonymous

And kanji with 寧

Anonymous

But I don't think I saw 濘

Chocolate

I think i've seen 蒙　もう・・・ in 蒙古

Anonymous

I wonder why that has 古 in it

Chocolate

06:02

う~ん…何かが古いのかな？

当て字だったりして・・・

「もんごる」の

Anonymous

@YangMuye What do you think the distinction between 準体助詞 and 形式名詞 is?

Anonymous

Haha, I forgot how silly some of the words in this English test sounded :-)

Anonymous

I hope my score isn't lower this time. That would be embarrassing :-)

Anonymous

Yay! It was slightly higher.

Yang Muye

@snailboat You don't need to delete the answer.

Anonymous

06:17

@YangMuye But I feel like if it's wrong, I shouldn't post it. I don't want to misinform people.

Anonymous

But if I fix it, I can undelete it.

Yang Muye

@snailboat I think 準体助詞 is の (maybe also includes か).

Anonymous

This graph fits fairly well with the estimate people throw around of native speakers learning 1000 words/year for their first 20 years of life.

Yang Muye

I don't think the term is really necessary.

Anonymous

@YangMuye I revised the answer and undeleted it

Yang Muye

06:19

Mar 23 at 10:44, by Yang Muye

Many particles and auxiliary verbs require specified forms. e.g. か, の themselves are nominalizer. まで, くらい, ほど, etc. do not accept の-nominalized form. に sometimes takes の, sometimes do not. が, は, を usually require nominalization, but not always. だろう does not require の-nominalization and adding の will make a difference. より, に違いない seems take either form, but I'm not sure.

Anonymous

I changed it to say "The main exception is when it comes before certain noun-like things including わけ and の"

Yang Muye

The 連体形 of nouns is still a mystery to me.

Anonymous

And in the examples I referred to の as a "nominalizer" and わけ as a "formal noun"

Yang Muye

Do you know more such nouns/particles?

Chocolate

@snailboat わ、そのグラフだと、私10歳

Anonymous

06:22

@Chocolate Ten-year-old native speakers know a lot of words! :-)

Anonymous

testyourvocab.com/blog/…

Anonymous

I took the test again, but I learned some of the words last time I took the test, so that biased my score upwards, so it doesn't count :-)

Anonymous

@YangMuye There's なら(ば), too

Anonymous

のなら(ば)・んなら(ば)・なら(ば)

Yang Muye

@snailboat のなら and なら sometimes make slight difference, sometimes don't.

のだったら is always のだったら

@snailboat I don't know when to use の when to use である as the 連体形 of nouns.

私が子供のころ/とき seems ok.

私がこどもであること

I found a lot of "が*の場合", but I think “が*である場合” is also common, at least I often see this in book.

Chocolate

06:54

これ、どうしてでしょうか

upvoteが、+10点ではなくて

+1点とか、+4点とかになってるんです。

TNさんの。

Anonymous

@Chocolate You can only get 200 points from regular votes in a day. Normally that's 5 from questions, 10 from answers each. But...

Anonymous

If you downvote and it costs you -1 reputation... So you got 200, but now it's down to 199

Chocolate

おおお・・・

Anonymous

Then I think your next upvote gives you that 1 reputation back, bringing it back to 200.

Anonymous

But when you look at someone else's reputation tab, you don't see downvotes

Anonymous

06:57

So it doesn't show you the -1... And it looks like 201 instead of 200

Anonymous

In this case 216 instead of 201 because of a +15 from an accept

Anonymous

(The +15 doesn't count toward the 200 limit)

Chocolate

So, here we can see about how many downvotes TN-san cast on the day before?

Anonymous

Since you can't see downvotes directly, you can only infer them from total numbers when there's no other explanation

Anonymous

But sometimes you can tell.

Chocolate

07:03

おおお・・・すごい

Anonymous

But technically it's public information. If you checked someone's profile every day and wrote down the number of downvotes total, you could keep a record of how many times they downvoted each day...

Chocolate

ｗｗｗｗｗ

Anonymous

I have 4003 upvotes and 105 downvotes.

Anonymous

Hehe.

Chocolate

07:17

japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/15832/… This is difficult for me... because I don't think 先生 is the most important person for 生徒

I know this is just an example but

う～ん

Anonymous

I personally think the most important person for a student is the student themselves, because a teacher can't make a student learn, but a student can put in work and learn if they try

Chocolate

Maybe you can change it to... ジュリエットさんは、ロミオさんにとって一番大事な人です/大切な人です

(but not ジュリエットさんは、ロミオさんにとって最も重要な人物です)

Anonymous

When I saw that question I originally wanted to put 先生 last, like Aにとって一番大切な人物はBです

Chocolate

おお、

like...

ロミオさんにとって一番大事な人は/大切な人は、ジュリエットさんです。

or

私の一番大事な人は、/大切な人は、お母さんです

とか

なんか、こう書くと・・・important というより、

dear to me とか precious to me みたいかな

Chocolate

07:43

「にとって最も重要な人物」というと…ちょっと堅いというか

「歴史上もっとも重要」とか「政治的に最も重要」とかいうコンテクストで使いそう

hippietrail

08:34

when you see "危" as a single-character sign, how do you read it?

Anonymous

I would read it き because that's the on reading

Anonymous

And the 訓 readings don't stand alone for that kanji as far as I know

hippietrail

hmm i was expecting you to say "abunai"

but you have sprachgefuehl and i don't (-:

what about semantically? what meaning would you read?

also how would you read other sigle-character signs such as: 男, 女, 押, and 引?

Anonymous

08:49

The parts of words that represent inflection (活用語尾) are generally written in kana

hippietrail

sure but that would rule out single-character signs ever being shortened by dropping the kana

Anonymous

Sometimes you'll find words like 取り引き which are nouns made from your old friend, the ren'yookei form of verbs.

hippietrail

whereas 押/押す and 引/引く seem to be counterexamples

Anonymous

If people start feeling like it's just a regular noun, they sometimes stop writing the okurigana, because they're not used to represent conjugation anymore: 取引

Anonymous

That is, 取り引き is a word that does not inflect

hippietrail

08:52

yes but for this topic i'm interested just in signs in japan consisting of only one single kanji

Anonymous

It's derived from the combination of two verbs, 取る and 引く, but it itself has no inflection

hippietrail

yes i've noticed that too. especially since you guys helped me get to know rennyoukei doodads - thanks (-:

Anonymous

Why not ask a question about how individual characters are read on signs?

hippietrail

i don't want to get in trouble for asking more obvious questions \-:

Anonymous

@hippietrail When I read this I didn't realize originally you were asking about characters written on signs, I just thought you meant 危 by itself

Anonymous

08:55

Like in normal writing

hippietrail

oh i'm not advanced enough to know if it's ever used on its own in regular writing. i would've expected not.

Anonymous

I think it's a fine thing to ask on the site

Anonymous

Maybe with a picture. I think people love to upvote questions with pictures. :-)

hippietrail

i've taken photos of push and pull but i'm not sure i've had the camera ready when i've seen 危 yet

Anonymous

09:11

Think about it like asking about headlinese or sign grammar in English. It's clearly an exception in some sense.

hippietrail

what about a question about the difference between 費やす and 遣う?

Anonymous

Honestly, I think you should just ask this stuff and if someone downvotes, be assured that the upvoters out there think it's a good question and belongs on the site :-)

hippietrail

09:39

is 指関節 a "normal" japanese word or a rare technical one?

Szymon

@hippietrail You should ask more questions on the main site. You provide interesting questions quite often and this site should have more questions than it has now.

We're still averaging about 6 questions per day.

hippietrail

@Szymon: i get in trouble on the main site. downvotes and scornful comments

i get the impression my questions are not the site people want

Szymon

Don't you get more upvotes than downloads eventually?

I like your questions.

hippietrail

maybe. sometimes. i dunno. the downvotes i notice because they're without comments so somehow i associate those with the short snappy negative comments

thanks for the positive feedback (-:

Szymon

Anonymous downvotes are part of SE sites, don't worry too much as long as you end up with more upvotes than downvotes in the long run.

hippietrail

09:55

oh i'm a long time SE user so I know that. but on a small site like this you feel it more than on a big anonymous SO

i care less about my rep than about not pissing off the sites established main users, since i'm just a blow-in

Szymon

To be honest I get much more anonymous downvotes here than on SO.

Maybe because I get them mostly on questions here and rarely on answers...

And I asked only 9 questions on SO.

hippietrail

0

Q: is 指関節{しかんせつ} a "normal" japanese word or a rare technical one?

I was doing my vocab training and added a few body parts. Then I noticed that the word I had found in the English Wiktionary for "knuckle" seems to be untypable with my Windows Japanese IME. This made me wonder if it's yet another case of learners "using too much kanji", etc. Is this a rare or ...

words

Szymon

In here I get at least one downvote for each question.

But then I get more upvotes anyway so my questions cannot be that bad.

Anonymous

Hmm...

Anonymous

It seems like a lot of people are unhappy with the amount of downvotes people get on questions around here.

hippietrail

10:03

0

Q: How do native speakers "read" single-kanji signs?

In my time in Japan I've noticed a few kanji that can be used on their own commonly in various kinds of signs: 押引男女危 Since all kanji have multiple readings, I keep wondering how native speakers read these, or talk about them. In fact for 危 I'm also interested in what they read it semanti...

kanji pronunciation readings

Szymon

I'm not really unhappy.

Anonymous

Some people are. Some people are unhappy with negative feedback of any kind, though.

Szymon

Well, you have to have at least a bit thick skin on the internet.

hippietrail

it's sad to keep putting people off using the site though when it's three years old and not getting any closer to graduation

i can take constructive negative feedback. but stuff like "it's too obvious to bother answering" i just read as "you're not wanted on our site - it's for us"

Szymon

Downvotes are an important tool in the site moderation though. Especially on big sites like SO.

Anonymous

10:07

@Szymon It's true.

Anonymous

I've gotten much more negative feedback outside Stack Exchange.

Anonymous

I'm an insecure sort of person, but I've gotten better at dealing with it over time :-)

hippietrail

we shouldn't worry that some people will go home and cry about it. but we should be concerned that people are put off using the site either after trying it or just seeing the reactions to other people's questions

on travel.SE we have a policy - "BE NICE"

Anonymous

That's Stack Exchange policy network-wide.

Szymon

I am quite insecure too and I tend to brood over negative feedback. I was really nervous at the start on this site.

Anonymous

10:10

Of course, on most SE sites people aren't actually nice.

hippietrail

26

Q: Rule 1: Be nice!

So there's a couple of meta questions about this, and it's been discussed at length in the chat room, and the mods' chat room. What it comes down to: Stackexchange has rules about being nice. We've been very lenient with these rules. We will no longer be. Insults / personal attacks will resul...

discussion

Anonymous

But I think what that rule really means is "Don't be actively mean"

Szymon

Because my Japanese level is nowhere near the level of some people here I was actually quite afraid to post something. But I personally found the reception quite welcoming.

Anonymous

@Szymon Ah, I participate even though I'm just learning :-)

Anonymous

It's all good fun.

hippietrail

10:11

we try to be nice on travel. people always leap to your defence if somebody is not nice to you. on linguistics it seems nice too though quiet. i seem to remember chinese.SE not feeling non-nice like japanese.SE can do

@snailboat: you may be learning but you are not "just" learning d-;

Anonymous

Maybe I'll try to steal part of that meta post.

Szymon

@snailboat You've learnt much more than me though.

Anyway, asking questions and providing answers usually means research for me to make sure I'm right and that means learning so it's all beneficial.

Anonymous

Yay!

Anonymous

I signed up for this Reddit thing jkerian is always talking about. There's a section there called LearnJapanese. Most of the questions aren't actually about the Japanese language, though.

Szymon

I don't know why I haven't signed up earlier to this site.

What Reddit thing?

Anonymous

10:19

Here is my illustrious profile, with the six posts I wrote, two of which have received downvotes: reddit.com/user/snailplane

Anonymous

I'm not overly fond of Reddit

Szymon

I've never used Reddit

Anonymous

I'm inclined not to because of some prior experiences

Szymon

Bad ones?

Anonymous

Well, I've never used it before.

Anonymous

10:20

But my friends have.

Szymon

Ah, ok. I'm usually a slow adopter of sites, technology, etc. which is maybe a bit funny as I'm a programmer. In a way, I prefer old things, like writing with a brush than all the modern technology.

Anonymous

Well, the opposite end of the spectrum is adopting all sorts of things because they're new rather than because they're good

Anonymous

@Szymon I still can't imagine why I'd ask a question about programming on a Q&A site on the internet.

Anonymous

That probably places my thinking squarely in the past. :-)

Szymon

@snailboat Really, why?

Anonymous

10:24

@Szymon Yeah, why?

Szymon

Sorry, got lost. Why wouldn't you ask a question about programming?

Anonymous

It's never occurred to me.

Anonymous

"Hmm. I can't solve this. I'd better ask on the internet!"

Szymon

Well, I did. 9 times. And I got some good answers too.

Anonymous

Woo hoo!

Anonymous

10:26

If I ever need to, I probably will.

Szymon

But I prefer answering questions somehow.

Anonymous

Answering questions is kind of fun.

Szymon

It is, true. Though on SO is sometimes too fast paced. I like it here more. There's time to think properly.

hippietrail

I never used Reddit either.

Szymon

I wanted to ask this: what will change on the site if we ever graduate?

Anonymous

10:31

I can tell you what's different about graduated sites in general.

Anonymous

1. They get a spiffy design.

Anonymous

2. Migration paths to these sites become possible.

Anonymous

3. Something about data explorer something something.

Anonymous

4. Moderators are elected instead of appointed.

Szymon

Yes, 3 is useful.

Anonymous

10:31

Ah, I'm glad you understood what I meant even though I didn't remember enough to form a complete sentence. :-)

hippietrail

@snailboat: wow i discovered stack exchange because at a certain point i started googling my programming questions and started finding answers, then started to notice the logo or name of stack overflow. then i started looking there directly and started asking there if my question was new... which led me to other SE sites

Szymon

@hippietrail Same for me.

Anonymous

I'm sure I saw Stack Overflow before the other SE sites.

Anonymous

There's some good content there.

hippietrail

all the rep/privileges change when the site is graduated. and data dumps become available. and we all feel good. and we get badges. and at some point even swag!

Szymon

10:33

Data explorer is really nice, it allows a lot of interesting analysis, there's almost everything exposed in there.

Anonymous

Oh, yes. And no, data dumps are already available.

hippietrail

i suck at db/sql stuff so data explorer always bends my mind

oh i thought data dumps were only for grad sites! cool

Anonymous

There's lots of programming stuff I'm not good at. Like every programmer knows, there's always a lot more to know than you can possibly store in your head in one lifetime.

Szymon

SQL is my forte so if you need anything, ask me.

Anonymous

And people invent new complexities, needless and otherwise, all day long.

Szymon

10:35

:)

Anonymous

But somehow I manage to code everything I want to anyway, so eh. :-)

Szymon

@snailboat I think there's more kanji that I can store in my head.

Anonymous

@Szymon True of everyone.

Szymon

You know what I find secretly very satisfying: when my Japanese teacher can't remember some kanji.

Anonymous

Hehe! Schadenfreude!

hippietrail

10:39

if you can code everything you want to code you're either a) not trying anything challenging enough b) much smarter than me or c) not programming to microsoft APIs

Anonymous

Haha!

Anonymous

I have been programming all my life.

hippietrail

well in that case i wasted my first 11 or 12 years! (-:

Szymon

Me too. I'm soooo behind.

Anonymous

I don't think I was actually programming when I was born. But I don't know what age I started. Around the same time I learned to read and write, I suppose

hippietrail

10:42

or alternatively you may not have been alive until age 11 or 12 (-:

Anonymous

Well, I started programming a long time before that.

Anonymous

My dad's a programmer! So is my mom! :-)

Anonymous

And my brother.

hippietrail

then you are either younger than me or born at IBM or MIT (-:

Anonymous

I am thirty two years old.

Szymon

10:43

That makes it a bit easier to start young.

Compared to me. I'm 5 years older.

hippietrail

when i was 12 th cheapest home computer was several thousand dollars so all i could do was want one and wonder what they were like

Szymon

It's really nice chatting to you both but I've got to go or at least become not very active. See you later!

hippietrail

within a few years though i was able to save up paper round money and buy my first one for a tenth of that price

ta-ta @Szymon

Anonymous

@Szymon See you!

Anonymous

We got a Commodore 64 when I was three.

hippietrail

10:50

the c64 came out i'm not sure how many months after i bought my zx spectrum - i'd already looked at and rejected the vic 20

Anonymous

Oh, the neighbors had a VIC 20. I didn't like it as much. Although my opinions as a three-year-old might not have been well informed.

hippietrail

i had been visiting family and school friends and learned on apple IIs and TRS-80s so even when the c64 came out i didn't like how it was full of things like "print {inverse heart symbol}" to clear the screen. i preferred the speccy's quirks

Anonymous

Ohh, that inverse heart thing gave me a feeling of nostalgia just now :-)

Anonymous

I miss the C64.

Anonymous

I don't ever want to use one again because I'd have all my happy childhood memories shattered.

Anonymous

10:59

I want to remember it as being super-amazing. :-)

hippietrail

would "to get ready" and "準備する" be acceptable translations in either direction?

i went through a retro phase and bought some old computers. all behind me now.

Anonymous

I don't think I could do that.

hippietrail

what would work better for each direction? or for just "ready" as an adjective?

hippietrail

11:29

0

Q: 遣{つか}う vs. 費{つい}やす

Recently I wanted to learn the equivalents to the common money-related verbs of English such as buy, pay, sell, and spend. I found two words for "spend" and would like to know what the difference is between them, whether one is better for "to spend money", whether one is common and the other rar...

word-choice verbs synonyms

Anonymous

Got any good ideas on how to pound the difference between 未知 (HL) and 道 (LH) into my brain? Just repeat 未知の道 to myself over and over? :-)

Anonymous

@hippietrail You can use 準備する, it's pretty common

Anonymous

If you want to be more specific about what you're expressing, it might help pick the right expression

jkerian

hmm... snailplane spotted in the wild weird world of reddit

Anonymous

@jkerian Yeah, which is your fault :-)

hippietrail

11:39

i can use 準備する for "get ready" i thought you said not to before

Anonymous

@hippietrail I did?

hippietrail

> would "to get ready" and "準備する" be acceptable translations in either direction?
i went through a retro phase and bought some old computers. all behind me now.
----
> I don't think I could do that.

hmm so much for the elegant formatting d-:

Anonymous

@hippietrail I was talking about going through a retro phase! :-)

jkerian

It's a rather active sub, but fond of the rather lame "favorite methods for learning japanese" opportunities for everyone to push whatever they used

Anonymous

Multi-line messages aren't fed through chat mini-Markdown, sadly.

hippietrail

11:40

ah good old ambiguity of chat threads

Anonymous

@jkerian My post claiming that 〜て as a command form is omission of くれ or ください was not well met :-)

hippietrail

> some multi line messages are.
> like this one

Anonymous

@hippietrail The > thingy is separate.

Anonymous

I don't think anything else works.

hippietrail

so not multiline? \-:

@snailboat: think of 道 as "the high street"

Anonymous

11:42

~~strikethrough~~ bold italics links

Anonymous

> ---strikethrough--- **bold** *italics* [links](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hweHxSWovTI)
> ---strikethrough--- **bold** *italics* [links](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hweHxSWovTI)

jkerian

@snailboat eh... it's only a single downvote. And keep in mind that reddit vote totals are slightly randomized

hippietrail

@snailboat: and 未知 as a reduction in the amount of known things

Anonymous

@jkerian Randomized?

Anonymous

未知の道、未知の道・・・

jkerian

11:43

@snailboat They fudge the numbers to keep conversations visible/prevent people from figuring out who voted where

It's... rather strange

Anonymous

@jkerian I noticed that um, not every question was actually about the Japanese language.

jkerian

@snailboat It's reddit :)

Anonymous

@jkerian But I participated a bunch.

Anonymous

That relative clauses question would work on JLU.

Anonymous

Pardon--JL née JLU

hippietrail

11:54

oh what is the word for "stroke" as in the strokes a kanji is made of? looking it up i get too much stuff about other senses for stroke

Anonymous

筆画

筆画（ひっかく）とは漢字の字体を構成する要素の一つで、最小の単位である。点画（てんかく）ともいう。筆を下ろして書き始め、再び離すことでできる「線」または「点」である。筆画の数を画数（かくすう）といい、1画、2画と数える。また筆画を並べていく順序を筆順という。筆画の種類筆画は、横画・縦画・斜画・点の4つに大きく分けられる。 * 横画（おうかく）とは、水平方向（横）に書く線をいう。 * 縦画（じゅうかく）とは、垂直方向（縦）に書く線をいう。 * 斜画（しゃかく）とは、斜めに書く線で、左はらい、右はらい、左はね、右はねのことをいう。古くは永字八法という「永」の字を使った書法で筆画の基本を説いていた。側（ソク、点）、勒（ロク、横画）、努（ド、縦画）、（テキ、左はねの斜画）、策（サク、短い右上がりの横画）、掠（リャク、左斜めはらいの斜画）、啄（タク、短い左斜めはらいの斜画）、磔（タク、右斜めはらいの斜画）。ただし、これはあくまでも書法の説明であって筆画を分析したものではない。現在の中国では約30ほどの筆画が設けられている。点（丶）、横（一）、竪（ジュ）（たて）、提（右上斜めはね）、（ヘツ）（丿左斜めはらい）、捺（ナツ）（乀右斜めはらい）、鉤（コウ）（乛・亅かぎ：横画または竪画からのはね）、折（おれ）の8つを基本とし、あとはその応用で説明さ...

Anonymous

As a counter, you just say 画, like the kanji 鬱 has 29画

Anonymous

The article says you can say 線 for "line" or 点 for "dot", and 画数 for number of strokes

Anonymous

And 筆順 (or 書き順) is "stroke order"

Anonymous

You can usually search for any kanji and 筆順 to find a diagram of how to write it

hippietrail

12:02

so 画 is the counter for 筆画?

Anonymous

Hey, @hippietrail, I have a question for you.

Anonymous

It looks like you made the Wiktionary page you linked to, back in 2009.

Anonymous

And then soon after, Haplology changed it to say し instead of ゆび

Anonymous

For what it's worth, I read it as ゆび too

Anonymous

(By "soon after", I mean two years later in the next revision)

hippietrail

12:10

which link was that sorry, heavily multitasking here

Anonymous

en.wiktionary.org/w/…

hippietrail

oh for knuckle? interesting. for ja and zh i mostly add stuff in wiktionary that i find elsehwere in wiktionary, or i just link to it or request it without making the articles

haplology could've been mistaken. there's a "perhaps" in the edit comment

Anonymous

I don't know.

hippietrail

would 数画 be sū-kaku?

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

12:16

Wait, why is it 数画 and not 画数?

Anonymous

Did I say it backwards earlier?

Anonymous

Let me fix that... :-)

hippietrail

dunno. maybe i missed it up copying and pasting?

Anonymous

It should be kakusū

Anonymous

@hippietrail No, it was me. I somehow brained it backwards. :-)

hippietrail

12:19

np

would 抑揚 be the first word you'd normally use for "intonation"?

and what about a word for "relax"?

hippietrail

12:41

wow so many readings/pronunciations for 踵 meaning "heel, bottom of the foot" - which should I learn first as the main/usual one?

Anonymous

I would go with かかと, but there's a couple thousand more common characters you might want to prioritize over it

Anonymous

I'm not really a dictionary, but

Anonymous

For relax you can say くつろぐ or リラックスする

Anonymous

@hippietrail The first thing that came to mind is 音調 but I suppose that might be more appropriate for "tone" than "intonation"

Anonymous

People say イントネーション

Anonymous

12:44

I think that's what my grammar books use

Anonymous

Give me a moment

hippietrail

i want to learn heal because i've got a very sore heel right now. i learn vocabulary by necessity (-:

Anonymous

You probably won't need the kanji for it

Anonymous

Not very often, anyway

hippietrail

d'oh this place is making closing announcements so i better start packing up

Anonymous

12:45

Yeah, my grammar book and dictionary both use イントネーション

hippietrail

always disappointing to find a boring old english word in japanese d-:

anyway お休みなさい

Anonymous

おやすみ！

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