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04:13
@IgorSkochinsky Oh, those are good ones :)
 
6 hours later…
10:11
@snailplane No, I use my phone's dictionary though.
Anonymous
10:25
Oh, do you have a kanji dictionary on it, too?
Anonymous
That sounds handy. I haven't used my 漢和辞典(かんわ じてん) much since I got my 電子辞書(でんし じしょ)
Anonymous
I like being able to write kanji into it :-)
13:31
The predecessor of the Kōjien originated during the Great Depression in East Asia. In 1930, the publisher Shigeo Oka (岡茂雄, Oka Shigeo, 1894–1989) wanted to create a Japanese dictionary for high school students. He asked his friend Shinmura to be chief editor, and they chose the title Jien (辞苑 "Garden of words") in a classical allusion to the Ziyuan (字苑, "Garden of characters") Chinese dictionary.
 
1 hour later…
14:56
I was just reading the earlier discussion about "ください" and "くださる", and now I'm extremely confused.
In my mind, any sentence that ends in "ーさい" sounds very abrupt. As if a command. If everyone's sentences are ending in です、ます、 and then someone ends with a さい,
that sounds very strange to me.
So, is "ください" and command?
well, i thought so, but then i did some research:
so, "ください" comes from "くださる", and the command forms would be: "くださりなさい". is that correct?
 
2 hours later…
Anonymous
16:53
@kinyo くださる is one of the dozen or so irregular verbs in Japanese...
Anonymous
(Probably a little more than that, depending on how you define it, I suppose...)
22:47
What does 無理せずあわてぞ mean?
Doi it's a zu nevermind.
Anonymous
Never minded! :-)
23:25
@snailplane Do you know why the handful of irregular verbs Japanese has, are irregular?
It seems peculiar to let in a handful of exception, given the order of everything else.
Anonymous
@Anthony I guess it depends on which ones you're talking about (and what you count as irregular). Generally, more common words tend to be more likely to be irregular in language, I think
It's unfortunate, lol.
Anonymous
​ おっしゃる →  ×おっしゃり  〇おっしゃい
​​いらっしゃる → ×いらっしゃり 〇いらっしゃい
​​  くださる →   ×くださり   〇ください
​​   ござる →    ×ござり    〇ござい
​​   なさる →    ×なさり    〇なさい
Like, する。 It seems bizarre to me that simply because it is super common, it ends up being irrefular.
Anonymous
Those honorific verbs all lose the /r/ from their 連用形(れんようけい) for some reason
23:33
What is renyoukei, again?
Anonymous
It's the thingy before ます, among other things.
Oh I see.
But, like with kudasai, it's also the imperative, right?
Anonymous
So, with ください and なさい
Anonymous
Imagine you were using the 連用形 because you wanted to add ます.
Sure,sure.
Anonymous
23:35
​くださります → くださいます
​ なさります →  なさいます
Anonymous
They lose their /r/s.
Yeah.
What came first? The masu form, or the ru form?
Anonymous
Now, turn it into a command form! 〜ませ
When they came up with verbs. Any idea?
Anonymous
くださいませ、なさいませ
Anonymous
23:36
いらっしゃいませ!
I see.
Anonymous
But that ませ gets dropped sometimes. It's as though it's still there, still a polite imperative form
And ろ is for 一段動詞
Anonymous
いらっしゃい! still means いらっしゃいませ!
Oh I see. It's just dropped...
Anonymous
23:37
ください is from くださいませ and なさい is from なさいませ
Why wouldn't they have tried to conjugate it following the same rules as other verbs?
Like 食べろ
か 飲め
Anonymous
@Anthony I missed the reason why you brought up ろ
Oh I thought you were going somewhere else with your argument.
I wonder if it's 下さい for the 中止形。
Anonymous
The irregular verb which is missing ろ is くれる. Instead of the expected imperative *くれろ, you have くれ
23:41
Still, why did they just drop ませ for these?
Anonymous
Unknown.
I don't think the te-form would be くださって if it was formed when the 連用形 was ください either.
Well, who knows about that really though
Bizarre...
Anonymous
日国 lists an alternative theory for those ませ-dropped command forms, which is that they come directly from the classical command forms: くだされ→ください, なされ→なさい
Anonymous
But 大辞林 only lists the ませ-dropped theory. It seems like the mainstream theory...
23:43
Hmm, no, it probably makes sense that it would be くださって even if the 連用形 was くださり. Sort of like ある.
Anonymous
(Of course, I'm no expert.)
Closest thing to an expert I've got!
:P
I think it's strange that this seems to be so unknown....
Anyway.
Anonymous
@DariusJahandarie If the 連用形 were くださり, the form with て would of course be くださって now.
I'll talk to you all later, I have homework to do.
@snailplane Oh. Yeah what the hell? I got my wires crossed somewhere there. Ignore the second line.
Anonymous
23:46
@Anthony Well, it's easier to describe what language looks like that come up with explanations why it looks the way it does. When something's part of a very large change like the Great Vowel Shift in English, we can come up with an explanatory generalization. When one word ends up くれ instead of くれろ, it's harder to come up with a reason why it happened because there's less evidence to test any explanatory hypothesis against...
Anonymous
It's easier to come up with generalizations about irregular inflections as a class, like "they appear more commonly in common lexemes"
Anonymous
I guess something like "people like shortening words, particularly common words" might be enough motivation? I don't know.
Anonymous
@Anthony Good luck with your homework!

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