Japanese Language - 2016-02-15

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Amani Kilumanga

6:32 AM

classical-japanese

Anonymous

7:14 AM

user image

Anonymous

@oals I think at least one of the two is on-topic because it's not really about input methods.

Anonymous

Ideally we would put questions about input methods on Super User. But, well, that's my opinion, and almost everyone else seems happier to put them on meta.

Anonymous

So I don't really want to override the community's decision (that's not what moderators are for), but I don't really agree with it, either.

7:46 AM

これ、、、

japanese.stackexchange.com/posts/28258/revisions

３と５の編集、何がしたかったのかわからないんですけど

とくに３．

何も変わってないように見えます

Amani Kilumanga

改行コードがたぶん削除されている

改行・・・

うぬぬ

Amani Kilumanga

sourceというリンクをクリックするとたまに違いが見えると思います

5の編集では、改行をしたかったみたいですね・・・

３はほんとにわからないｗｗ

@AmaniKilumanga 候補に出るんですね、そのタグ・・

何かに変えたほうがいいでしょうか・・

タグを変えたことがないのでわからないわｗｗ

Amani Kilumanga

classical-japanese→classicalがいいかも

japaneseがいうまでもないから

7:57 AM

あ～そゆことね

Anonymous

8:24 AM

If you add two spaces to the end of a line, it's just like typing <br>

Anonymous

8:47 AM

Wait, I'm looking at the wrong edit.

Anonymous

They really didn't change anything, did they? :-)

Anonymous

I guess they wanted to add a newline but it didn't work, so then they had to edit it again.

Anonymous

I don't get what changed in revision 3 either!

Amani Kilumanga

I think maybe a carriage return or newline was removed at the end of the post. If you select side-by-side markdown, you can at least see that the edit was made to the last line.

9:21 AM

宮本武蔵って、「たけぞう」？

2

Q: What does 先｛さき｝ mean here?

After killing his opponent, Takezou: 颯爽と、一顧して、彼はすぐ後ろへ戻って行くのである。なんでもないことのようだった。もし先｛さき｝が強ければ、自分が後に捨てられてゆくだけのこととしかしていなかった。宮本武蔵（1935年–1939年、朝日新聞連載、吉川英治） What does 先 refer to? Could it be his dead opponent (先方)? Or future / future opponents?

grammar meaning

小説では「たけぞう」で出てくるのかな。

9:49 AM

Happy Belated Valentine's Day!

Belated Happy Valentine's Day!

どっちが正しいんですか

user image

↑　チョコレートです！

lol mushi x3

おいしそう

土曜日にキャラメルの風味で茶を買えた

2 hours later…

broccoli forest

11:41 AM

@choco この小説では、武蔵の幼名が「たけぞう」になってるっぽいです

aozora.gr.jp/cards/001562/files/52396_49781.html

「むさし」になるのがこのシーンのもっと後

@snailboat in my naive thinking "thunderhead" and "thundercloud" feel different to each other

and "thundercloud" means 雷雲 (no matter how you read)

@snailboat is it dialect or something of regional preferences?

google.co.jp/…

if you search 入道雲 over nine out of ten are distant cumulonimbus in the background of blue sky

google.co.jp/search?q=cumulonimbus&tbm=isch

google.co.jp/search?q=thunderhead&tbm=isch

hmm...

user image

12:27 PM

does it mean destroy/abolish valentine day? o.o (sorry, still beginner)

Anonymous

@broccoliforest You know, I don't really use the word thunderhead myself.

Anonymous

I can give you my subjective impression of it, but you might be better off asking on one of those English language Q&A sites :-)

Anonymous

1:09 PM

1

Q: How do I say "Comrade X" in Japanese?

I'm writing a short story for a Japanese class (beginner level). In the story the action takes place in the Soviet Union, where we sometimes used to address each other with the "comrade ..." greeting (the military in Russia still do). How do I express this in Japanese? In the first draft I wrot...

Anonymous

Is 「同志諸君」 likely to be understood?

Anonymous

I see they wrote 「同志の皆さん」

Anonymous

1:36 PM

Oh, l'électeur's comment is helpful.

2:04 PM

@broccoliforest I like how there's two policemen for nine protesters, but why are half of the protesters wearing masks?

maybe they're sick with some form of flu or cold. They usually wear masks to avoid infecting other people for when they cough/sneeze.

@Jerry they're not that kind of mask

Amani Kilumanga

@Jerry 粉砕

do you know how to look up kanji when you don't know the reading (if that is the case)

@AmaniKilumanga If you know the stroke order, you could draw it.

Or select the radical from a list.

kanji.sljfaq.org (check the different modi buttons at the top)

Amani Kilumanga

2:21 PM

@CodesInChaos I was going to suggest the IME Pad, but that works too.

Anonymous

I usually write them on my 電子辞書 these days :-)

Anonymous

Once I got used to looking up characters by writing them, I almost entirely stopped using my paper dictionaries. Too lazy :-)

Anonymous

Say, is there OCR character lookup on phones these days? Like an app that looks up a character that you point the camera at?

Anonymous

That sounds like something existy.

2:49 PM

@broccoliforest そうなんだ～

そうだよね～

@Jerry yes chocolate mushi

@DanHulme Haha do they look yummy?

@broccoliforest えっバレンタイン粉砕？？なんでや

Why are they wearing masks??

@snailboat I think Google Translate has camera input, but it's for inputting a whole sentence to translate; I don't know what performance is like on isolated kanji.

I can see 「モテる・・・再分配・・・」

Anonymous

In English, people joke and call it Singles Awareness Day

broccoli forest

@Jerry it says "Smash the Valentine's Day!"

So they don't like Valentine's Day because...

they are not popular..

broccoli forest

2:53 PM

@Jerry it's a traditional wording for left-wing agitation

@choco kakuhidou.fumizuki.net

so they insist on doing 再分配 of chocolate...

broccoli forest

こういうアレです

おおおｗｗｗ

非モテ

U+A7AF LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL Q

broccoli forest

@DanHulme because they're parodying 60s left-wing movement

2:56 PM

hi everyone!

lots of ppl in chat today

broccoli forest

hi

@snailboat ひとり身を実感する日、みたいなこと？

broccoli forest

I remembered a line from Enemy at the Gates

@Flaw おおっ10人

broccoli forest

> In this world, even a Soviet one, there will always be rich and poor. Rich in gifts, poor in gifts. Rich in love, poor in love.

imdb.com/title/tt0215750/quotes

3:00 PM

富の再分配の話？

愛の再分配とか・・・

無理ｗ

「モテへの累進課税と再分配が必要」

だって！

sorry totally unrelated but how wrong does "recommend + to infinitive" sound?

I should say "recommend + ~ing" or "recommend + S+(should)+V", right?

Does it sound as wrong as "suggest + to infinitive"?

(my dictionary says "recommend + someone + to do~~" is okay)

Anonymous

3:23 PM

In British or American English?

3:34 PM

to my British ear they're all OK but "recommend S to V" is unusual

and probably sounds most odd if S is anything other than a pronoun? maybe that's my imagination

"I recommend your friend to quit his job" sounds like something only a foreigner would say, but "I would recommend your friend to quit his job" is a lot better; I guess because in the first case I'm not actually delivering the recommendation to its target, but in the second case I'm describing what you would say to your friend.

Let's just go with "it's more complicated than I thought" :-)

broccoli forest

@choco awareness って（弱者などの問題に）気づこうってことでは？

もしかして: あわれness...

@Earthliŋ bmp!

bmp?

broccoli forest

um

it's in the Plane 0 (Basic Multilingual Plane)

of course, because it's a Latin letter

yes, now it is

broccoli forest

you don't need to use surrogate pair

3:42 PM

it wasn't three weeks ago...

@broccoliforest Sorry, I'm not programmer. I can't quite follow your comments =)

I posted the comment, because I suggested that the small capital Q be included in Unicode. And now it is!

well, soon anyway

What is it for?

In Japanese, you can write phonemes as / a i u e o k g s z t d n h b p m y r w ʜ ɴ Q /

so あ = /a/ and さとう = /satoʜ/ (long /o/) or りんご = /riɴgo/. But there was no small capital Q...

what phoneme is the Q anyway?

The sokuon, the small つ, っ

3:58 PM

is there a googlable name for this system?

I am curious now :-)

Anonymous

Japanese phonology

Japanese phonology

This article deals with the phonology (the sound system) of Standard Japanese. == ConsonantsEdit == Notes Voiceless stops /p t k/ are slightly aspirated: less aspirated than English stops, but more so than Spanish. /t d n/ are laminal denti-alveolar (that is, the blade of the tongue contacts the back of the upper teeth and the front part of the alveolar ridge) and /s z/ are laminal alveolar. The compressed velar is essentially a non-moraic version of the vowel /u/. It is not equivalent to a typical IPA [w], since it is pronounced with lip compression ([ɰᵝ]) rather than rounding. Consonants inside...

but that page uses the IPA throughout. I don't understand why we get a Latin Q rather than an IPA Q

broccoli forest

@DanHulme expected use case :) japanese.stackexchange.com/a/30044/7810

@DanHulme there's no IPA Q

Anonymous

特殊拍 or sometimes 特殊モーラ or 日自立モーラ

Anonymous

4:04 PM

Oops typed it wrong on my phone :-(

Anonymous

Sorry I'm so slow! Typing from my phone

Anonymous

You can also google archiphoneme or underspecified segment

@DanHulme On the Wikipedia page: /niQpoN/ > [nʲip̚.põɴ]. The /.../ is the "phonemic" notation, the [...] the phonetic notation (in IPA). We're talking about the former.

broccoli forest

@DanHulme and it's not in IPA either

Anonymous

I meant to type 非自立モーラ

broccoli forest

4:06 PM

technically IPA letters are registered as Latin unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D00.pdf

oops unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0250.pdf

Anonymous

There are multiple ways to approach Japanese phonology, so you'll find people who analyze long vowels as a sequence of two short vowels as in /tookyoo/, without resorting to a special segment written /H/ or /R/. It's a matter of theory, unlike phonetics which is more practical. But I think most commonly three or four special segments are acknowledged

Anonymous

One for vowel lengthening, one for geminating consonants, one for the moraic nasal, and some add /J/

Anonymous

I don't really know what the argument for /J/ is

what's /J/?

Anonymous

But for /N/ and /Q/ at least, they clearly fit native speakers' intuition about the language, which is what phonology is supposed to do

broccoli forest

4:14 PM

do you mean the い in あい or おい?

Anonymous

Moraic palatal vowel, yes, I don't understand why it would be distinguished from /i/

broccoli forest

or 拗音?

Anonymous

Just a moment

broccoli forest

if I remember correctly it's argued that some dialects including Tokyo have some prosodic features related to CV+i syllable

no I don't remember right

Anonymous

I'm back! :-)

Anonymous

4:21 PM

Jōo, Hakutarō (1977) 'Gendai nihongo no on'in [The phonemes of contemporary Japanese]', in Ōno, S. and Sibata, T. (eds.), Iwanami Kōza Nihongo 5 On'in, Tōkyō: Iwanami shoten, 107–145.

Anonymous

That's the reference I have written down for a phonologist presenting /J/ as part of Japanese phonology

Anonymous

That's 城生佰太郎 in case it helps searching, sorry that it's romanized!

Anonymous

Anyway, I ignore /J/ :-)

In any case, if you want to write /J/ nicely, there is /ᴊ/ already =)

Anonymous

Oh, yes! Sorry, I was typing from my phone, and it's hard to type those things on it.

Anonymous

4:26 PM

But I can type them now that I'm at a computer :-)

Anonymous

There are also small versions of both H and R (whichever you prefer) and N, so I'm excited to get Q!

I wonder how long it takes for fonts to include small capital Q...

might be a few years

Anonymous

I know writing /ʀ/ is common, but I find /satoʀ/ less intuitive than /satoʜ/

broccoli forest

In typography, small capitals (usually abbreviated small caps) are uppercase (capital) characters set at the same height and weight as surrounding lowercase (small) letters or text figures. They are used in running text to prevent capitalized words from appearing too large on the page, and as a method of emphasis or distinctiveness for text alongside or instead of italics, or when boldface is inappropriate. For example, the all-caps TEXT IN CAPS appears as text in caps in small caps. They can be used to draw attention to the opening phrase or line of a new section of text, or to provide an additional...

> As of Unicode 5.1, the only characters missing from the ISO basic Latin alphabet are small-capital versions of Q and X.

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Thank you for submitting U+A7AF! :-)

Anonymous

4:33 PM

@broccoliforest Your answer reminds me of a section in Vance's book which cites transposition errors

Anonymous

On the topic of /ei/ versus /eʜ/

Anonymous

He gives a transposition error for 関係, /kaɴkei/ → /kaikeɴ/ as evidence for /ei/

Anonymous

But then gives 名門 /meʜmoɴ/ → /meɴmoʜ/

Anonymous

And he says "one possible interpretation is that the diphthong /ei/ is unstable, and that an individual speaker can have two different phonemic forms, one with /ei/ and one with /eʜ/, for each relevant word."

Anonymous

Although he elaborates for several pages, so I've left out a lot :-)

broccoli forest

4:38 PM

oh, thanks

do you know which book it is?

or paper

Anonymous

This is The Sounds of Japanese by Timothy Vance, page 65

broccoli forest

thank you

to be honest I haven't read much books on Japanese linguistics

btw did @Earthliŋ submit the proposal?

Anonymous

Yes, he submitted it after I grumbled for the nth time in chat about missing small Q :-)

broccoli forest

oh he is a hero :D

Anonymous

Yes! All he needed me to do was to get him examples of small Q in linguistics papers.

Anonymous

4:42 PM

This is a good example that didn't make it into the proposal: researchgate.net/publication/…

broccoli forest

if only I could have helped a bit

unicode.org/L2/L2015/15241-small-cap-q.pdf

the proposal seems very recent

Anonymous

I didn't realize he had already sent it in!

Anonymous

Until he left a message today :-)

broccoli forest

but it's approved, then everything is okay :)

Anonymous

He did all the work!

Anonymous

4:50 PM

One linguistics professor I know writes aR- for classical あり and ar- for modern ある, with the capital R indicating r-irregular inflection.

Anonymous

Different people seem to use capital letters for different things.

broccoli forest

wow it's... unique usage :)

I never thought of attributing irregularity to stem

or, that consonant

Actually, I submitted it as "Please take a look over the proposal". Then I got an email, saying "In its current form it's very unlikely to be accepted", so I dug up more examples (including the one you @snailboat mentioned above) for resubmission. I decided to check on the current status, because I hadn't heard anything, and found that it was considered for inclusion... So, it was not a strong proposal, but apparently strong enough.

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Oh! Yay!

Anonymous

Sorry I didn't dig up more examples.

4:54 PM

Well, it worked and that's what matters =)

Anonymous

It turns out to be a difficult thing to search for :-)

[3] Tamaoka, K., Kirsner, K., Yanase, Y., Miyaoka, Y. & Kawakami, M., “A Web-accessible database of characteristics of the 1,945 basic Japanese kanji”, Behavior Research Methods, Instruments, & Computers, 34 (2) (2002): 260–275.

[4] Tamaoka, K. & Makioka, S., “Frequency of occurrence for units of phonemes, morae, and syllables appearing in a lexical corpus of a Japanese newspaper”, Behavior Research Methods, Instruments, & Computers, 36 (3) (2004): 531–547.

[5] Tamaoka, K. & Makioka, S., “New figures for a web-accessible database of the 1,945 basic Japanese Kanji”, Behavior Research Metho…

these are the ones I found

Anonymous

Wow, you found a lot of them!

broccoli forest

I guess I can find many books with small capital Q in our library

Hopefully, in 10 years, you can't find many books/articles on Japanese phonology without them =)

Anonymous

4:59 PM

I'm definitely on team small caps. I don't like capital letters for archiphonemes.

Anonymous

If only because it's harder to read.

Well, all other phonemes or IPA letters are either small letters, or small caps, or something resembling small letters... Why would you do anything different for /Q/?

broccoli forest

@Earthliŋ it's already in one of my textbook

@broccoliforest Great! More references =)

broccoli forest

user image

5:03 PM

what's it called? (just out of curiosity)

I found someone typing /Q/ and /N/ with subscripts, presumably to make it resemble a small capital Q... it looked horrible

user image

@broccoliforest /V/ too?

broccoli forest

@Earthliŋ do you mean...?

@DanHulme yeah, it's the /J/

@broccoliforest The title of the textbook

broccoli forest

no, seems to bea blanket term of /H/ and /J/

@Earthliŋ ah

wait a minute

Anonymous

I would normally expect V to represent an unspecified vowel

broccoli forest

5:06 PM

utp.or.jp/bd/978-4-13-082009-7.html

I couldn't find where to get citation info

Thank you!

sorry, gotta go, ttyl

broccoli forest

@snailboat I read it again, and it seems that the authors just didn't make distinction between vowel, /H/ and /J/

it's an introduction-to-linguistics textbook

so they bypassed all the details

2 hours later…

7:03 PM

Japanese has ruined me. I'm trying to write a letter in polite French and I keep getting paranoid that I'm using the wrong verb form.

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