Japanese Language

Austin French

2:11 AM

Anyone active?

Darius Jahandarie

@AustinFrench Hi there.

Austin French

Hey!
OK... So I have decided to go full force with Japanese, mind telling me if an introduction actually makes sense?

Darius Jahandarie

Cool. Are you saying that you wrote an introduction and want someone to check it for you?

Austin French

Yes.

Exactly.

Darius Jahandarie

Sure, I can try. Not a native speaker so no guarantees, but I can at least fix grammar errors :)

Austin French

2:21 AM

Its for Rosetta Stone's SharedTalk:

はじめました。アーステン　です。　どうぞよろしく。日本語をまなびたい。私の日本語へたが。

And fixing any errors will help me. I think a speaker would figure it out, but I wouldn't mind first impressions to show I care about getting things right

Darius Jahandarie

1. It's はじめまして ("nice to meet you"), not はじめました (which would mean "I started").
2. I wouldn't put a space before です.
3. To keep your politeness level consistent, 学びたいです.
4. Again, 下手ですが.

ssb

the standard spelling of austin is オースティン

Darius Jahandarie

I was about to look that up too :)

ssb

might be a safe bet to say どうぞよろしくお願いします too

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah. I think that depends on how ~気軽い~ you want to be.

ssb

2:25 AM

also I'm pretty sure with 下手 it needs to be (私は)日本語が下手

not 私の日本語が下手

but I'm not 100% sure on that

Austin French

O-sten? LOL, OK. I didn't know I had a standard!

And sorry, really a slow reader!

Darius Jahandarie

私の日本語は下手です and 私は日本語が下手です are both fine.

Austin French

はじめまして　I just plain typod! So thanks there, and I am analyzing the rest of your comments.

ssb

note that the イ is really a small ィ, so instead of テ it's ティ

which is like "tea"

Darius Jahandarie

I would just say 日本語が下手です personally though. Well, I'd say it entirely different probably, but if I wanted to say something like that.

Austin French

2:27 AM

So, how does one type the little i in katakana?

Anonymous

Type xi

Darius Jahandarie

xi works.

Anonymous

You can type ティ by typing thi

Austin French

Cool! Thanks.
And what would you say? Also, what is your fluency if you had to assess it?

ssb

Hmm, I guess I didn't feel like the は and が was the problem as much as saying 私の instead of 私は felt weird. But like I said that's just my often-wrong non-native intuition

fluency is such a hard thing to measure

Austin French

2:30 AM

With へた I was under the impression you showed ownership of the skill set, so 私のへた But this is from a remembered phrase some 8 years ago...

err, heta na...

Anonymous

@AustinFrench You can find these on Wikipedia sometimes, although since you're starting out that might seem difficult for the time being: ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Austin French

Thanks. And in all honesty I learn best under pressure, so Wikipedia is fine. I am not babying this any longer!

Anonymous

That's right! No babying! Babying is right out! :-)

Anonymous

がんばってね！

Austin French

Not loading on that wiki link.

ありがとう！

Darius Jahandarie

2:35 AM

@AustinFrench Well, I'd say something like はじめまして。ダリエスと言います。今、日本語を勉強しています。まだ未熟ですが、どうかよろしくお願いたします。 or so (for a rather formal introduction trying to say more or less what you were saying).

I think I'm not particularly fluent.

Austin French

Very nice @DariusJahandarie　！

Anonymous

Oh wow, ダリエス? Somehow in my mind it was always ダリアス

Austin French

Am I the only one that has a hard time telling katakana from kanji often?

Darius Jahandarie

@snailboat Well, ダリアス is the standard spelling after all.

I like ダリエス more though, so I use it :-)

Anonymous

@AustinFrench Don't worry. Before long they'll seem very different (at least 99%+ of the time).

Anonymous

2:43 AM

All you have to do is keep practicing reading and that problem will solve itself

Anonymous

(You don't have any reading disabilities do you?)

ssb

I still get flustered every time I see the name of the site 口コミ

Austin French

Thanks @snailboat I have no issue with hiragana, but katakana... Especially with things like カ

ssb

and no it's not "rokomi"

Austin French

But it says rokomi!

ssb

2:44 AM

apparently it's a word in itself and not just a site

Anonymous

@AustinFrench There will be ambiguous cases even after you're a fluent reader but context will solve them for you the vast majority of the time

Anonymous

You won't have to tell apart 口 and ロ very often at all

ssb

also it's always weird going by this place near me called マルエ工場

Austin French

Thanks @snailboat I can generally get through it, but there is a lot of double/ triple reading

Anonymous

And likewise for カ and 力

ssb

2:45 AM

In the typeface used for the sign the two are nearly identical

Anonymous

@AustinFrench What you'll find is that, as you get better at the language, you'll be able to fill in details from context automatically. At first, that's really hard because you don't know what to expect. But the more language you see, the more your brain will pick it up

Anonymous

Like if I were to leave a ____ out of this sentence, it'd be totally obvious to you which ____ it was

ssb

sandwich?

Anonymous

Although you've never trained yourself specifically to fill in blanks, your mind recognizes patterns when it sees a lot of language and it does it automatically. If you expose yourself to a lot of Japanese, you'll be able to tell what makes sense in context, too

Austin French

And I think that is where I have a small advantage. I used to able to speak some Japanese, so I can get the words worked out often enough and chug through it eventually. I just wish I never stopped. Those 8 years or so would have made a huge difference in my Japanese ability.

Anonymous

2:48 AM

It's okay! You're serious about it so you'll make loads of progress! :-)

Austin French

(Small advantage to other new learners)

Thanks, I am drowning myself in it! lol. Wrote myself a Windows Phone app, looking for penpals, lurking here... Watching old movies.

Anonymous

Old Japanese movies? What sort do you like?

Austin French

To be honest, I don't know Japanese movies exceptionally well. I just have movies from my old friends that I know and rewatch. Battle Royale, Kikujiro and whatever random things I can find.

Anonymous

Well, try to find things you love. That's where your motivation comes from!

Anonymous

You want to love the learning you're doing, even if it's hard sometimes :-)

Austin French

2:51 AM

I would like to find more movies in the kikujiro model.

菊次郎の夏 is apparently the full title

Anonymous

きくじろうの　なつ

Austin French

why the space?

Anonymous

Well, since I was writing in all-kana I habitually put in a space, but it's not necessary

Anonymous

Can you read much kanji?

Austin French

(Curious as I don't get Japanese spacing at all)

Anonymous

2:53 AM

Japanese typically has NO spaces. Exceptions include song lyrics, where spaces are used instead of punctuation, and in TV subtitles, and occasionally in manga

Austin French

8 years ago I had about 300 Kanji, now I think I remember 30 fluently (Guessing) but can get context on a few more

Anonymous

Another exception is when Japanese is written entirely in kana or with only a few kanji. In that case, spaces are helpful. You'll see this in old video games, childrens' books, and a few other select contexts

Anonymous

@AustinFrench You should put together a kanji study plan, if you can manage it. Do you already have a preferred way of studying?

Austin French

OK. Is it generally acceptable for a newb like me to space sentences out?

Anonymous

Well, Japanese will make allowances for foreigners who are obviously learners :-)

Anonymous

2:56 AM

It wouldn't be normal to write Japanese with spaces. If you want to write properly, with kanji and no spaces, go right ahead

Anonymous

The reason I wrote those kana earlier is I wasn't sure you could read the kanji yet

Austin French

My study plan right now is:
1) rikaikun to read any/ everything.
2) Break out my old books that aren't too basic
3) Watch some movies and listen to radio
4) Get back to Kanji when I can do those things fairly consistently again

ssb

Here's what I did that worked well for me

Anonymous

It's up to you what to work on, but I think eventually trying to integrate listening and reading skills is good--anything where you can LISTEN and READ simultaneously. For example, you can get the Harry Potter audiobook and paper book and read along. Or you can watch cartoons with Japanese subtitles. That way you associate the words with sounds as you read :-)

ssb

Use anki to learn new vocabulary every day WITH KANJI from the beginning

review every day

and then interact with as much real Japanese as possible!

Anonymous

2:59 AM

Listen to @ssb, he's a much more effective learner than me :-)

Darius Jahandarie

The advice suddenly started being capitalized!

ssb

I guess it depends on your goal. For me literacy was my primary concern

Anonymous

Capitalization is Important!

Anonymous

@ssb That was my goal early on. I feel like I focused too much on reading and writing, and I should have focused more on listening and speaking. But being able to read is very helpful!

ssb

I remember how depressed I felt after one year of university level Japanese classes, looking at something in Japanese, and just despairing because even after following class for a year I could do virtually nothing

Darius Jahandarie

3:00 AM

Reading is still my weakest point by far. (Except for writing, but I just pretend that doesn't exist. :-)

ssb

I couldn' read anything

Darius Jahandarie

I've found that I've just been picking up the kanji for vocabulary I know well lately though

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie I found that any kanji I learned to write I tended to retain much more easily

Austin French

Thanks you!
With Kanji, that is where I am using various sites (like this one) to get through it. There is a ton of Kanji where I know the definition but not the reading. So I might see 見　for example and I know the verb but need rikaikun to actually read it.

ssb

I totally neglected listening and speaking in my study regimen, but I had the opportunity to study abroad for an extended period and that's where my listening comprehension improved dramatically

Anonymous

3:01 AM

For me, learning to write feels like it was crucial. But my study buddy, who has been studying for the same amount of time as me, never learned how to write any kanji.

ssb

@AustinFrench my approach, as I mentioned, was vocabulary based. It's tough in the beginning when you don't know how to read things, but very soon the patterns become apparent and learning new words becomes easier over time

Anonymous

@AustinFrench Kanji have readings. But! I would recommend thinking of it this way instead: learn words and then learn how those words are written

Anonymous

So learn the word 見る.

ssb

Not a lot of people like Heisig's remembering the kanji method, but I went through all of volumes 1 and 3 before i went head first into vocabulary study, and it made recognizing and remembering words based on kanji much easier anyway

Anonymous

And learn 見解

Anonymous

3:03 AM

And then you know the two basic readings for 見 :-) When you see 見える and 見せる and 見ない it'll seem natural because you already know 見る＝みる

Austin French

And I lost all my Japanese people! So I have to figure out where to find more to learn one on one there....

Oh yea, and working on my app has been a fun exorcise too!
If anyone is curious, its a flash card app basically where I can create tiles on the home screen.
http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store/app/kanji-of-the-day/98e111e5-9f03-4329-8b40-affb6ee11174

Darius Jahandarie

I've meet a couple Japanese people by going to meetup.com meetups for it. But I think that only works if you live in a city.

Anonymous

And when you see 意見, that'll seem natural, too. Assuming you know, say, 意味 or 意思 as well :-)

Austin French

Probably useless to most people, but forcing myself to go through on/kun and all has been helpful.

Anonymous

@AustinFrench I have memorized the on/kun for about three thousand kanji. I think most people would tell you not to do this. :-)

Anonymous

3:05 AM

But I didn't really have any advice when I started learning kanji, so I just found some books and started rote-pounding it into my skull

Austin French

meetup.com, going to check that out. I live in the world's biggest town, or smallest city right now.

ssb

I can tell you the on and kun for many many kanji but I have never studied them specifically

Anonymous

And if you keep doing it, even just a little bit, day by day, eventually you'll be able to read a zillion kanji

ssb

Do what works for you, though, that's most important

And I also want to emphasize the importance of persistence

Anonymous

You'll probably end up forgetting some of them, especially less common ones, if you don't review, but you'll naturally end up retaining whichever information you use

ssb

3:06 AM

Study even for just 5 minutes a day if you have to but stay in the habit of studying

Anonymous

(You can cheat and use programs like Anki or--I don't know how your program works--to retain rarer information longer term :-)

Austin French

Thanks again guys, I am feeling the encouragement!

ssb

The thing about Japanese is that it feels like such an impossible task at first, but it gets so much easier to learn the more you stick with it

Austin French

@snailboat I have a powershell script that converts a spreadsheet I have setup like

Name kunyomi pronounceKun kanji meaning onyomi onPro example1 pronounce1 exMeaning1
ki キ ki 木 tree, wood きく kiku 木陰こかげ Shade of Tree

(Probably butchered format)

Anonymous

Well, it seems like an impossible task because you can't do it all at once, but it's made of a zillion tiny possible tasks :-)

Austin French

3:08 AM

into flash cards that flip around

Anonymous

@AustinFrench I would like to emphasize learning vocabulary as you learn kanji

Anonymous

The entire point of learning to read kanji is to learn to read words

Anonymous

Sometimes, if you memorize a list of readings, you won't know when to use which one.

ssb

I agree emphatically

Find premade lists of words to start out

Anonymous

But if you learn words and how to write those words you'll never be confused. Well, maybe not never...

Austin French

3:09 AM

Hm, I can see your point.

Anonymous

Some kanji are words by themselves. 木(き) is a word! :-)

Anonymous

Learning based on words, you'll also deal with those surprising cases where they don't seem to match up with their official readings

ssb

but if you learn 木材 and 木曜日 then you can remember that its on-yomi is もく without studying it specifically

Anonymous

Like 木の葉

ssb

I recently learned 木偶 (でく) and wondered if it was connected to Zelda

Austin French

3:11 AM

I think I goofed 木　for my kunyomi then...

err, onm

Anonymous

@ssb Oh! :-)

ssb

what did you thinnk it was?

I also learned 木漏れ日! that's a nice word

Anonymous

Oh, it is! A pretty mental picture

Anonymous

google.com/…

Anonymous

@AustinFrench You can also practice reading manga. A lot of manga use kanji all over, but they put furigana on every single kanji

ssb

3:16 AM

some games will do this for you too

Anonymous

Oh, that's true, mostly pretty new games

Anonymous

Older games barely ever had furigana, though they'd sometimes put readings in parentheses

Austin French

OOOh! That sounds good.
Somewhere I have a "Breaking into Japanese literature" book I need to find too, now that you said that

Anonymous

@AustinFrench That's a good book!

Darius Jahandarie

I've seen that book.

Anonymous

3:16 AM

It'll be a challenge for you right now, but

ssb

You should read stories by hoshi shinichi

they're really short and not too difficult

Darius Jahandarie

Been meaning to buy it and read through it, but haven't had the time.

ssb

but they're really good

Anonymous

There are also graded readers. I've never used them, but my friend taking a Japanese reading class has lots of them

Anonymous

They're lots of relatively easy reading, short stories and the like

Austin French

3:17 AM

"Hmm, there aren't any japan Meetups near you yet" ~Thanks Meetup!

And the book is old! But it seemed interesting when I bought it.

Anonymous

@AustinFrench It is! A lot of us learners have that book (-:

Darius Jahandarie

@AustinFrench Yeah. Works great in Boston though. :-)

There's so many Japanese meetups I can only go to one like every 30 or something.

Austin French

I will look into the manga too.

LOL, thanks @DariusJahandarie. Wichita, Kansas here.

Anonymous

And you can always ask questions here on Stack Exchange!

Austin French

By the way, I went with my original horrible Japanese expressions to start off, but I saved your introduction. I figure when I can mentally decode your expression better I will update it. Until then, I will be honestly ignorant of my poor choices :D

Thanks @snailboat I plan to spend a ton of time in this room following along.

Darius Jahandarie

3:24 AM

@AustinFrench :-). Don't study my introduction too closely though, there's probably some subtle thing which makes it sound unnatural.

You could ask @Chocolate or another native speaker how they'd say it if you want something that's certainly correct.

Austin French

That's OK though, then I can help you... If I ever figure out what sounds unnatural.

Anonymous

@AustinFrench You should learn はじめまして as a single word or expression (even though it's clearly made from はじめる＋ます＋て)

Anonymous

Don't try to conjugate it

Austin French

I didn't, that was 100% a typo. はじめまして I always thought was the full story! Until just now when you said that...

Anonymous

Ohh, a typo :-)

Anonymous

3:27 AM

Uh huh. It has ます＋て　＝　まして in it. There are a few others like that: どういたしまして and あけましておめでとうございます come to mind

Austin French

なすて　＝　なして！

Geez, I wish I knew that sooner!

err, ますて　＝　まして

Anonymous

Most commonly people don't add て to the polite ～ます

Anonymous

Outside of a few fixed expressions like those

Anonymous

Although it's not totally unheard of

Darius Jahandarie

@AustinFrench Well, "ますて" isn't a thing, so it's more accurate to say ます＋て.

(The sort of quibble only a mathematician or programmer would care about though, I think :-))

Anonymous

3:32 AM

Usually if people make a sentence polite, they do it at the end of the sentence

Anonymous

(By using です or ます or such)

Austin French

Can you explain that more then? why ます＋て

Anonymous

It's an exception. I shouldn't have mentioned it, probably. :-) You're better off learning はじめまして as a single word

Austin French

or an example of what you mean?

lol, ok. Done. Purged of typos and exceptions for now and I will retain solely はじめまして

Anonymous

Yay

Austin French

3:34 AM

If I can type it correctly as needed at least!

Chocolate

@DariusJahandarie ダリウスって読んでた

Darius Jahandarie

ｗｗｗ誰だ

Chocolate

この人もダリウスさん

Darius Jahandarie

ああ、鋼の錬金術師か．．．確かに服が似てる。

こわいな、俺。（笑）

Chocolate

このダリアスさんは賢そうよ

kishidou.com/zukan_det_pc.php?no=1467&tid=2&zid=1

イケメンやし♡

Darius Jahandarie

3:49 AM

ｗｗ残念ながら、私の髪は金色じゃないので

Chocolate

いあいあ、このひともカッコイイ　login.alteil.jp/al2CardDB/detail.php?id=1607

ダリアスさんって、強そうなイメージなのかな。

Darius Jahandarie

よろいなら持ってるよ。

Chocolate

ローマ時代の騎士みたい

持ってんの！？

Darius Jahandarie

やあちょっと変な趣味がね．．．

Chocolate

何に使うねん。。。

Darius Jahandarie

3:54 AM

まあよろいのことはともかく、ダリアスさんって強そうというのは確かだ。ペルシアの王の名前だもんな。

Chocolate

そうそう、王様ってかんじ

この人かな　ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

１世ということは、２世や３世もいるのか。。

Darius Jahandarie

私は、４世だ。

ところで、チョコレートさんは今日本にいるのかな？

イギリスではちょっと遅いから

Chocolate

はい、京都です。

イギリスは今、朝の５時ですね

ここは今、午後１時です

このペンギンめっちゃかわいい　youtube.com/watch?v=6ugxWsVH2Pk

Darius Jahandarie

ｗｗｗ混乱してる

Chocolate

特に1:15のとこ、「あれ？なんで通れたんだ？」みたいな

Darius Jahandarie

4:05 AM

もっと高かったらリンボーダンスするのかな

ssb

ごちそうさまでっちた～

Chocolate

ペンギンってあんなにどんくさかったら、すぐ外敵に襲われそうだけど、いいのかな。

@ssb 昼ごはんですか

給食かな・・・

ssb

いぇす

カレーの日だよ

Darius Jahandarie

おやすみ。

Chocolate

へえ～

@DariusJahandarie あら、夜なのね

おやすみやす

ssb

4:12 AM

good night!

the curry was ok but i still hate any salad with wakame

Chocolate

へ～海藻サラダ？にょろにょろしてるもんねえ

わかめの味噌汁は嫌い？

ssb

i hate wakame in general

because of its texture

it's in soup a lot too, yeah

but it's worst when it's cold and wet and squishy among other vegetables..

Chocolate

そうなんだ～　体にはいいんだけどね～　ぬるぬるだもんね～

ssb

please no nuru nuru :(

But I eat it anyway because I'm a big boy now

Austin French

nuru nuru is just seaweed?

Or am I missing something here?

ssb

4:22 AM

it describes a texture

slimey?

yes

ok

6:01 AM

What's イノブタ in English?

ssb

it might not have an english name

at least as far as I can find

ssb

6:16 AM

"wild boar and domestic pig hybrid"

@Chocolate ↑

Anonymous

11:00 AM

I'd really like to answer that 〜てならない question but I have a fever and don't feel up to it

Anonymous

But I voted up your answer @ssb :-)

ssb

11:18 AM

@snailboat I'm sure yours would be better than mine!

so feel free to do so once you feel up to it

Anonymous

11:34 AM

I think ならない is idiomatic and preserves an older meaning of なる, which is why you can't understand it in terms of the modern verb なる

Anonymous

精選版　日本国語大辞典 says in its definition for ならない: 動詞「なる」には、もと、成立する、できる、許される（差し支えない）などの意がある。

Anonymous

I can't explain exactly with ～てならない means ～てたまらない but I was looking through Martin's grammar where he mentions it

Anonymous

12:18 PM

My fever's gone down a bit--it's now 37.7°C (100.0°F)

Anonymous

12:34 PM

I also noticed that it's in A Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar, pp.605-8

Anonymous

Along with 〜てたまらない and 〜てしかたがない

Darius Jahandarie

12:48 PM

Feel better @snailboat.

Chocolate

2:45 PM

@ssb へへ、ありがとう・・・

boar-pig とかにはならないんだね・・・

@snailboat まあ！

お大事に

無理しないで

Earthliŋ

5:18 PM

@snailboat Oh, now you know what Fahrenheit felt like when he invented the Fahrenheit scale! Get well soon!

Austin French

6:44 PM

I have a new word! 素敵

Anonymous

7:06 PM

Hehe, thanks everyone! I'm feeling okay :-)

Anonymous

@AustinFrench That's an important word!

Anonymous

It's an example of something called "ateji". The kanji are used for their sounds, not their meanings

Anonymous

The kanji are quite common, but you'll also find some people writing this word in kana.

Austin French

7:22 PM

Thanks @snailboat I found it for "pretty"

I was chatting with a Japanese lady on SharedTalk

Anonymous

7:34 PM

ejje.weblio.jp/sentence/content/%E7%B4%A0%E6%95%B5

Austin French

So 素敵　is really a wide range of concepts? Great, pretty, awesome "cool"?

Eiríkr Útlendi

8:51 PM

@AustinFrench, think about the English term "fine" and how many meanings that covers.

Austin French

Yep, I was just perusing the list that snailboat posted:

素敵なセリフ
a wonderful line (to say) - Weblio Email例文集

あなたは素敵です。
You are wonderful. - Weblio Email例文集

それは素敵だね。
That's wonderful. - Weblio Email例文集

それは素敵です。
That is amazing. - Weblio Email例文集

あれは素敵です。
That is wonderful. - Weblio Email例文集

あれは素敵です。
That is lovely. - Weblio Email例文集

あなたは素敵だ。
You are amazing. - Weblio Email例文集

あなたは素敵だね。
You are great. - Weblio Email例文集

それは素敵ですね。
That's wonderful. - Weblio Email例文集

それは素敵です。
That is great. - Weblio Email例文集

Anonymous

9:25 PM

There are several sites like that with examples in parallel text (English and Japanese) which you can learn from. You'll have to be careful because not all of the sources are ideal, and not every sentence will really be perfect. But you can still learn a lot from them. That one's Weblio E-J/J-E, and you can also try ALC

Austin French

9:37 PM

I did like that site, it gives you an idea of the concept behind it. Obviously not every word is going to have an exact translation.

So it was a good read :D

Anonymous

10:59 PM

atelier.woman.excite.co.jp/creation/45673.html

Eiríkr Útlendi

11:16 PM

怪しいじゃん、そんなURL...

Transcript for