Japanese Language

Anonymous

7:08 AM

We haven't had very many questions the last few days. I should probably ask some questions… :-)

Damkerng T.

9:13 AM

@snailboat I have too many questions to ask, though I think most of them don't comply to the site's guidelines. :)

(For example, I don't know why someone would say ありがとうございました　instead of ありがとうございます.)

jkerian

16

Q: ありがとうございます vs. ありがとうございました

When thanking someone, what is the rule for using ありがとうございます vs. ありがとうございました? My sensei taught us to use ありがとうございました when the action you're thanking someone for occurred in the past, but I've heard ありがとうございます used plenty of times right after the action occurred. Does it have to do with how far ...

Damkerng T.

@jkerian ありがとうございます！

Anonymous

9:45 AM

I think the problem lies in the fact that many languages have a concept of aspect unlike English's concept of tense. Aspect is about completeness of actions whereas tense is about when in time an action occurs. — hippietrail Jun 2 '11 at 4:55

Anonymous

Every language has aspect…

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You can get away with using ありがとうございます pretty much all the time :-)

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

(Tsuyoshi Ito's answer gives a counterexample, though)

Anonymous

10:18 AM

@DamkerngT. If you want to talk about kanji learning methods, this is a better place to do it than ELL chat, 'cause we've got a bunch of people here with Opinions on the subject.

jkerian

of course... most of them are wrong :)

Damkerng T.

Most of the times I could make out what they say in anime/dorama, approximately, not precisely. So when I tried to match which kanji should sound like which part I just had heard, it would be a really slow process. Also, I still can't read hiragana very fast.

@jkerian I'm curious!

jkerian

@DamkerngT. The most contentious kanji learning method out there is definitely James Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji", (generally known as either "Heisig" or "RTK)

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's a book!

jkerian

Yeah, the method is actually pretty simple. Break up the kanji into componants and give each of them a meaning

Then you develop a short story/image that uses all of the componant-meanings and associate it with the kanji meaning

Anonymous

10:25 AM

(Not necessarily an etymological meaning--perhaps something else, if it helps you remember better)

jkerian

The system does have it's benefits... the primary one being that it's basically a formalization of what nearly everyone studying kanji does anyways.

Damkerng T.

Including the native speakers too?

Anonymous

Well, everyone breaks kanji up into pieces.

Damkerng T.

Or it's a method designed specifically for the rest of us? :)

Anonymous

Although there's different ways you can break kanji up.

jkerian

10:27 AM

Yes... but the difference is that while a native speaker's componentization is usually based on the historical development of the character, Heisig kinda throws that out

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

For example, 語 is 言＋吾, and 吾 is 五＋口. You could say it's 言＋五+口, or you could group it mentally and say 言+[五＋口] or just 言+吾

Anonymous

Different ways of thinking about it

Damkerng T.

That's quite logical, I think.

jkerian

There's a historical system (that snailvehicle knows far more about than I do, I'm sure) of "Bushu radicals" that you can follow as an alternative formalization. One issue there is that I believe it was originally designed for Chinese... and occasionally does have some oddities because of it

Anonymous

10:30 AM

The traditional 214 "radicals" are from the 康煕字典（こうき　じてん）= Kangxi Zidian

Anonymous

It's just a system for indexing characters in dictionaries. There have been a lot of sets of "radicals" used at different points in time

Anonymous

Sometimes a lot more than 214

jkerian

(There was a bit of raging at the authors of the "New Nelson's Character Dictionary" when they ditched Nelson's self-invented system and switched to the Kangxi one)

Anonymous

That system became traditional

Damkerng T.

Are these radicals sort of proto-characters?

Anonymous

10:31 AM

Well, Kangxi-based :-)

Anonymous

The Japanese is 部首（ぶしゅ） literally meaning "section head" (in reference to the fact that they're a method for indexing characters in a dictionary…)

Anonymous

The 部首 for 病 is 疒

Anonymous

It's 疒 + 丙

Damkerng T.

Are there any tricks that can help me relate kanji characters to their sounds?

Anonymous

The biggest group of hanzi represent Chinese sounds visually

jkerian

10:34 AM

It should be noted that since the 部首 system is used as a 'classification' system, it picks a single part of the kanji as THE 部首. By contrast various systems for learning kanji don't care about indexing them, so they would say 病 is 疒 + 丙.

Anonymous

They're called 形声文字（けいせいもじ）in Japanese

Anonymous

Most commonly, these are made of two parts. As described traditionally, one part carries meaning, the other is another character used for its sound

Anonymous

The part that carries meaning is most commonly the part selected as the "radical" (部首)

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

But there are more than 214 different elements used that way, and it's not always possible to assign them that way--sometimes you'll find characters where the element giving pronunciation is also the radical :-)

Anonymous

10:37 AM

You don't necessarily need to learn the 214-radical system.

Anonymous

I use it because I use paper kanji dictionaries (which some people feel is crazy these days :-)

Damkerng T.

It looks like my Shogakuken Progressive dictionary sorts words by sounds.

Anonymous

The paper kanji dictionary I would recommend when you're starting out is the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary (KLD)

Damkerng T.

BRB

Anonymous

Remember our discussion of two types of dictionaries?

jkerian

10:38 AM

BTW, are we talking purely theoretically here? Or are you planning on starting to learn kanji next week?

Anonymous

The Progressive J-E is a dictionary of words

Anonymous

A character dictionary is, well, a dictionary of characters

Anonymous

Character dictionary:

Anonymous

Anonymous

Word dictionary:

Anonymous

10:39 AM

Damkerng T.

@jkerian I'm learning Japanese through dorama and anime subtitles, though, I think I should be able to recognize kanji characters asap.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It'd be great if you could just upload a few thousand kanji and the associated vocabulary into your brain, but unfortunately… :-)

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

You can, theoretically, learn the Japanese language while remaining illiterate. Blind native speakers, after all, master their own language just like other native speakers (while, of course, facing certain challenges)

Damkerng T.

I wish I could learn how to fly helicopters the way Trinity did in The Matrix. :)

Anonymous

10:41 AM

But being literate is a huge help

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

A lot of reading material has furigana on everything.

Anonymous

In particular, graded readers (like my friend uses in her Japanese class)

Anonymous

As well as manga aimed at younger demographics

Damkerng T.

A-ha! Perhaps I should try audio books that are not too difficult and come as a book with furigana.

Ah, you're talking about manga.

Anonymous

10:43 AM

The only books I know fitting your requirements are graded readers

Damkerng T.

Manga are very expensive at Kinokuniya. :-)

Anonymous

Oh! I thought they were cheap :-)

Damkerng T.

(Though I guess that they're not too difficult to find on the web.)

Anonymous

Granted, Kunokuniya is more expensive overseas than in Japan.

Anonymous

If you're planning on picking up lots of manga, you might consider doing so while you're in Japan :-)

Damkerng T.

10:45 AM

へへ！

jkerian

Yeah... if you are going to be visiting, drop by a book off while you're here

Anonymous

But DVDs and BRs of anime are ridiculously priced

Anonymous

I have a lot of DVDs of Japanese stuff from other regions where they're cheaper (though there's some pretty expensive anime DVDs here, too, or there used to be)

Anonymous

But releases here usually don't have Japanese subtitles

Anonymous

Buying lots of anime on DVD/BR as part of learning is, well, not very cost effective, unfortunately :-)

Anonymous

10:48 AM

Fortunately you get some Japanese programs over there, right?

Anonymous

We get a few.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes. Though I don't know how to write what I heard in the shows in Japanese at this point.

I mean, I tried, but when I pasted what I thought I heard to Google Translate, the results were nonsense.

Anonymous

Hmm. I wonder if I should really be giving advice, given how slowly I've managed to learn over the last umpteen years :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Heisig's system has a few relatively unique aspects

Damkerng T.

Ahh... now I realize why I thought manga (in Japanese) are expensive. It's because I'm used to reading them in Thai, and each volume costs only about one US dollar.

Anonymous

10:51 AM

It's designed around creating mnemonic devices to link an English keyword to a single kanji (as used in Japanese)

Anonymous

You see the keyword, then you write the character

Damkerng T.

A Japanese volume costs over 8 dollars at Kinokuniya.

Anonymous

Keyword → writing character

Anonymous

As part of that, you break characters down (this part is less revolutionary but very useful)

Anonymous

You can work through Heisig's entire system before learning any actual Japanese

Anonymous

10:52 AM

(Many people recommend doing it)

Damkerng T.

Checking out the book on Amazon; I'll see if I can have a look at its preview.

Anonymous

There should be sample chapters freely available online

Anonymous

I don't recall where

Damkerng T.

Oh, I can look inside...

Anonymous

I didn't use Heisig's system. I just learned kanji as I learned words, for the most part

Anonymous

10:54 AM

Heisig's system separates learning into phases, so you learn these minimal steps first, and they work as a foundation for the rest of your learning

Anonymous

It's supposed to put you on a more even footing with a Chinese student

Anonymous

Chinese learners of Japanese don't necessarily know much Japanese before starting, but being able to read and write hanzi is a huge help!

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I see a few pages on their explanation of 1-10 and mouth.

Anonymous

Heisig's system doesn't introduce the most common characters first.

Anonymous

It's designed, I believe, for you to go through the whole thing before making use of the information you've learned

Anonymous

10:56 AM

If I recall correctly, it introduces my example of 吾 before 語, even though 語 is about a zillion times more common

Damkerng T.

Because 吾 is a more basic unit, perhaps?

Anonymous

Yeah, Heisig tries to arrange characters in that way

Anonymous

Since I haven't gone through Heisig, I haven't committed his order to memory

Anonymous

But I imagine you'd learn both 天 and 夭, for example, even though 天 is common and 夭 is rare

Damkerng T.

Any testimonials on this method from our JSE users? :)

Anonymous

10:58 AM

Because, for example, 妖 is relatively common and contains the latter

Damkerng T.

@snailboat nods

Anonymous

I can tell you @ssb as well as my study buddy benefited quite a bit from the method

Anonymous

I don't think it's necessary.

Anonymous

But I'm interested in character history, too

Anonymous

I find it easier to commit etymological and historical details to memory because they're automatically interesting, whereas made-up mnemonics get filed away in my brain as useless information (because they're false)

Damkerng T.

11:00 AM

I guess that Kangxi-based radicals are closer to historical development of the characters.

Anonymous

Which is perhaps silly because historical information isn't necessarily actually useful :-)

Anonymous

The Kangxi radical system doesn't necessarily represent historical information

Anonymous

It's just a way of indexing character information in paper dictionaries

Anonymous

Sometimes the system can be rather tricky to use

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I believe that historical information is very useful!

Anonymous

11:02 AM

@DamkerngT. For example, you might look at the case of 臼

Damkerng T.

I love seeing how each character evolved.

Anonymous

臼 was originally not included on the jōyō kanji hyō

Anonymous

The character 兒 was to be included, though--

Anonymous

They ended up simplifying it, replacing 臼 with 旧 (a similar character with the same sound)

Anonymous

So 兒 became 児

Damkerng T.

11:04 AM

Oh!

Anonymous

But 睨 is a fairly common character as well. Unfortunately, it wasn't included on the chart and didn't receive a simplification

Anonymous

So you end up with 睨 and 児, but not 兒

Anonymous

Knowing that 児 and 睨 are related might not help you remember how to write them

Damkerng T.

In any case, I think that Heisig's method might have one merit. It pulls useful Kanji characters into one place, and arranges them in (I guess) the order of complexity.

Anonymous

Because looking at it from a modern perspective, one contains 旧 and one contains 臼

Anonymous

11:06 AM

But you have to learn to write both anyway: 臼 was added to the jōyō kanji hyō in 2010!

Anonymous

And it's part of other characters that didn't receive simplifications, like 睨 (above) or 舅

Damkerng T.

Google doesn't even recognize this 睨 character.

Anonymous

Type にらみ

Anonymous

It'll end up with the kana み sticking off the end :-)

Anonymous

You can think of kanji as "covering up" kana

Anonymous

11:07 AM

にらむ　→　睨む, the kanji covers up the first two characters in the word

Anonymous

(Why? Because the last part changes when you conjugate it, so it has to be in kana: 睨みます・睨まない etc.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It puts them in an order such that later characters can build on earlier ones

Damkerng T.

睨み　<-- the shortest one I saw in the list. :)

A-ha!

Anonymous

In the traditional school order, you learn 曜（よう） "day of the week" very early on, before you learn 羽 or 隹

Anonymous

Students often have trouble remembering how to write 曜 because they can't divide it up mentally into three parts, so they learn it by rote

Anonymous

11:10 AM

At that point, they don't have enough information to divide it up.

Anonymous

They've probably learned 日 but not 羽 or 隹.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... But 羽 looks just like feathers, and it is!

Anonymous

So it has an advantage in avoiding that.

Anonymous

The advantage of learning 曜 by rote is that it's incredibly common

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Traditional school for learners of the Japanese language?

Anonymous

11:11 AM

And you'll use it more often than 羽, and much more often than 隹

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. There's a government prescribed order in Japanese schools

Damkerng T.

Oh! I seeee!

Anonymous

Japanese students are expected to learn characters at the appropriate grade levels, over the course of grade school and junior high

Anonymous

But Japanese native speakers are also exposed to a lot of kanji, both on and off those lists, in daily life

Damkerng T.

Suppose that I want to check out that government prescribed list, what should be the keyword I could use?

Anonymous

11:13 AM

There are probably some kanji on the lists most people don't ever learn (or at least don't remember) because they're practically never used, like 璽 or 虞

Anonymous

There are several lists, depending

Damkerng T.

Eh?

Anonymous

The 常用（じょうよう）漢字（かんじ）表（ひょう） is the Jōyō kanji chart

Anonymous

bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/joho/kijun/naikaku/kanji/…

Anonymous

Memorizing this chart is kind of like hitting your head against a brick wall

Anonymous

11:15 AM

It's possible, but it's not the most effective way of learning Japanese

Damkerng T.

Probably so. However, I guess that it might be useful for filtering out some kanji characters I found in subtitles.

Anonymous

There are probably better ways to do that, too.

Damkerng T.

Please advise.

Anonymous

Another chart, called the 学年別漢字配当表, tells you which kanji to learn in each of the first six grades

Anonymous

mext.go.jp/a_menu/shotou/new-cs/youryou/syo/koku/001.htm

Anonymous

11:17 AM

Look, 曜 is in the second grade, but 隹 is nowhere to be found!

Damkerng T.

Oh, it looks much smaller. :)

Anonymous

(隹 isn't a jōyō kanji)

Anonymous

These are the education kanji.

Damkerng T.

That's roughly about 1000 characters, I think.

Anonymous

Yes.

Anonymous

11:19 AM

They correspond in a very rough sense to how common / useful characters are

Anonymous

The first grade characters are almost universally good to know

Damkerng T.

Neat! ありがとうございます！

Anonymous

But most L2 learners, I imagine, don't check either of these charts while learning

Anonymous

Me, I just looked kanji up as I went, and eventually new kanji slowed to a trickle :-)

Damkerng T.

Is the sixth grade roughly equivalent to Grade 6 in the US? Or it's something entirely irrelevant?

Anonymous

11:20 AM

Yes, it's kind of like that.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

So, they'll learn more and more after the sixth grade.

Anonymous

The remaining thousand or so じょうようかんじ are sometimes called junior high characters (covering grades 7-9), although I don't think there's any official chart telling you which characters in that set to learn when

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A sixth grader will also know kanji that aren't on these lists.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

誰（だれ "who"） isn't on the education list, but it's one of the 100 most common kanji.

Anonymous

11:23 AM

Some of this is kind of a digression away from "useful" :-)

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

If you complete the Heisig system, you'll be able to recognize (and write) a whole bunch of kanji, but you won't be able to read words written with them

Damkerng T.

Eh? What do you mean?

Anonymous

For example, you'd learn to associate the English word "icicle" with the kanji 氷

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

11:25 AM

You wouldn't learn to read 氷（こおり）

Damkerng T.

(Isn't that a character for "water"?)

Anonymous

こおり is a word

Anonymous

So is "icicle", but it's not Japanese, so memorizing it doesn't teach you any Japanese :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. 水（みず） is "water". 氷（こおり） is "ice".

Damkerng T.

Oh, one extra stroke!

Anonymous

11:26 AM

You'll have to learn to tell apart similar characters like 水・氷・永

Anonymous

Or 泳・詠

Anonymous

When I learned こおり, I learned it with the kanji 氷. When I tested myself on that flashcard, I'd make myself shiver and think cold thoughts :-)

Damkerng T.

ははは！

Anonymous

People say learning more than one piece of information at once like that is inefficient

Anonymous

But it helped me associate meaning with everything

Damkerng T.

11:31 AM

Hmm... I was about to say that it's the opposite.

Anonymous

Heisig separates learning to write kanji from learning readings

Anonymous

It doesn't teach you to read at all

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's strange. My ELL main page doesn't refresh itself. (It didn't say that there were any new questions, and I had to refresh the page myself.)

@snailboat I think it might be useful as a list, and now I have a better list, probably more than just one list. :)

Anonymous

If you're just going to memorize short meanings for each character, I wouldn't use Heisig's list of keywords for that purpose

Damkerng T.

Is there a better way than looking each of them up manually?

Anonymous

11:35 AM

No

Damkerng T.

I see. :)

Anonymous

But there are only a few thousand in common use

Anonymous

Since most hanzi represent Chinese pronunciation graphically, kanji likewise give you a hint as to the おんよみ a lot of the time

Damkerng T.

The trick might be knowing which part is giving me the hint.

Anonymous

So for example, 蜂・峰・逢・縫 all share the on reading ほう

Anonymous

11:39 AM

You'll come to see patterns

Damkerng T.

It's the thing on the right!

Anonymous

Yep! Usually is, in left-right characters

Anonymous

So 蜂 (はち) "bee" is a type of 虫 and its on reading is ほう

Anonymous

The kanji encodes that information

Anonymous

You can think if it like this: the right part says "this is ほう" and the left part answers the question "Which ほう is it?"

Anonymous

11:43 AM

The system isn't perfect.

Damkerng T.

That's a good trick!

Anonymous

And it tells you nothing of くん readings

Anonymous

Because they didn't exist for the people who created hanzi

Anonymous

You can often guess pronunciation by association

Anonymous

If you know 朦朧, you can guess 濛々

Anonymous

11:48 AM

If you know 包 and 孝 you can guess 咆哮

Anonymous

If you know 壽 and 著, you can guess 躊躇

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I have to go. Be back later. Thank you very much. ありがとうございます！(@jkerian too)

Anonymous

おやすみなさい！

Choko

2:56 PM

@非回答者ありがとうございます

とんでもございません、って言いますね、やっぱり。とんでもないことでございます、なんて言わない。

Wiktionaryの「かわいい」の変化のページですが、やはり、「かわいくありません」「かわいくありませんでした」は載っていません

Damkerng T.

6:16 PM

@snailboat I review our chat and I think I missed this line the first time. Now I'm curious about the most effective way of learning Japanese. :-)

Anonymous

8:27 PM

@DamkerngT. I'm not sure what the most effective way is, but hitting your head against a brick wall probably isn't it :-)

Anonymous

9:17 PM

Ahh, 37°C tomorrow!

Anonymous

1

Q: meaning of はぐった

I would really appreciate your help. I just read the sentence またひるめしをくいはぐった and I can't quite figure out what はぐった means resp. what the basic grammar of this conjugation is. I'm kinda lost... Thanks in advance

translation slang

Anonymous

German speaker? :-) (Is that resp. supposed to mean bzw.?)

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